Fanuc Servo Wiring and Testing Questions

[spottrouble]

First 3 batteries check out good so far, and 2 more showed up today, picking them up in the morning. These are DECA 70D batteries, rated at 1340 cranking amps, according to www.windsun.com website these have 225-255 amp hour ratings. These are coming from a heavy equipment dealership, these are the batteries supplied with the machines when new, when dealer sells the machines they install new batteries, so these are "almost" new. Best idea I've come up with for storing these outdoors, yet protected from rain, is plastic truck toolboxes, need to find one to measure though. Next best idea is a couple of big plastic tubs with lids, but that would require going to Walmart . Where I want to place these is under roof edge, so water is a concern. Any ideas besides plywood?

Any ideas on how to size a battery bank? How many amp hours do I need? Long term plan is 1 of the Fanuc motors on a wind turbine, and some solar panels, I have no idea how many I need. Winter power bill runs about $70 a month, summer can go over $300. Only way to lower AC bill is a whole new house, better orientation to sun, and better insulated.

I've taken some pics of what I've done, and would love to share them here, I just cannot figure out how to resize pics on this computer, they average about 1.5Mb, yet I need to get them down to 1.5Kb so they mods don't get upset. I could do it on the last computer, but for the life of me cannot figure out how to do it on a Dell D620.

Kristi

[spottrouble]

OK, trying to do an "energy assessment" of my current home, adding up amperage ratings on the breakers seems useless because I get 420 amps potential draw, on a 200 amp service. So I just went through the house making a list of power consumers and getting power info off them, not all have this info. Looking at the cfl bulbs they are rated at 13watts 120V 210ma, so volts x amps = watts, so watts divided by volts should give amperage, yet 13 divided by 120= .10833333, yet 210 x 120= 25.2? Do the cfls have a higher draw on startup?

So adding up every light inside the house shows 20 bulbs drawing 210 milliamps each, so .210 x 20= 4.2 amps, 4.2 x 120= 504 watts. That seems doable for a starter RE system .

Guess I need a kill-a-watt meter to figure out what the rest of the appliances consume.

[spottrouble]

Hmm, starting to sound like I'm talking to myself

Picked up 2 more of the Deca 8D batteries today, so if I go by the 225 amp hour rating I'm up to 1125 amp hours, starting to sound like enough juice a newbie could get hurt without some help. Hoping to get 3 more so I'll have a bank of 8 equaling 1800 amp hour capacity, I think that should be enough for a starter system. Plan is to hook them up for 24v, I can see several ways of doing this by wiring series/parallel, not sure what the best pattern would be. I've read more than a few posts here recommending fuses on the batteries, couple of pics looked like some type of fuse right at the battery terminal, but I'm not sure what it is or where to get them, some advice would be nice.

Got the amp meter in the mail this morning, not sure when I'll get back to testing though, need to mask/paint and reassemble a big grinding machine by Monday, and palletize and ship 2 other machines, hopefully by monday.

Kristi

[birdhouse]

kristi-
for 24v, you're going to need to do a series parallel wiring set-up.  the key here is keeping everything as equal as possible.  with my system, i've got ( six volt deep cycle batteries.  four in series, and another four in series(with #4 wire with professionally crimped ends).  then, i parallel the two series sets( with 3/0 copper).  i pull the main + off one set, and the main - off the other set...  again equal!  my inverter is wired to these same points with 3/0 copper, and even through one wire could be 6' and the other could be 3', i made them both 6'.  again equal! 

i don't fuse each battery, though it can be done and is safer for sure!  i just keep my head about me while working on my bank.  be VERY careful setting metal tools down in the wrong place.  one of those 8D's will vaporize a wrench set accross the terminals! 

i hope this helps, and ask away for other questions!  i'll try to look in on this thread and other may very well chime in as well!

i'll put a link at the bottom showing some wiring diagrams.  notice they pull the main + and - from different ends of the bank. 

adam

http://www.solarseller.com/battery_bank_wiring_diagram.htm

[spottrouble]

Hi Birdhouse, thanks for that link! I'm rotating the batteries on the charger, need to get a hydrometer to actually check sg. I'm thinking I might need a better/bigger charger though to equalize batteries, charger only puts out 13.5V. I have a big rack mount DC power supply, adjustable voltage and amperage, anyone know if I can just hook this up as a battery charger? Or do I need to add a diode or something?

Found the battery fuses, West Marine has them. Crawled under the house yesterday looking at wiring, it looks like I can pull the romex completely out of the breaker box, then run it to another breaker box dedicated to RE circuits, thinking this would be neater and safer.

Kristi

[birdhouse]

I have a big rack mount DC power supply, adjustable voltage and amperage

i would use the charger you've got, UNTIL they are fully charged by that chargers parameters. then i'd use that multi DC source you've got to equalize them.  try 14v, 1A. it may take up to 14.5v 1.5A...   that should be enough to give them an ever so slight "boil".   

make sure the electrolyte level is full AFTER charging on the regular charger, then put them on your DC source, and give each battery a slight boil for 2-3 hrs.  if it's quiet, you should be able to hear the battery boiling.  though you want far from an agressive boil.  just a little bit, but for some duration.  check electrolyte again after equalize. 

this is standard maint. on deep cycle batteries, though many of us have controllers to do it for us.  be careful, and wear eye protection!  have some baking powder around as it will neutralize battery acid in case of an accident. 

adam

[spottrouble]

OK, so how do I know when these batteries are fully charged? What I have now is a basic 6v/12v 2/2/6amp battery charger, Schulmacher or something like that, a pretty popular brand. On 2 amp rate needle sits at about 1 amp, on 6 amp rate needle sits at 4 amp. In order to speed the cycle up I've been connecting 2 batteries with jumper cables and charging on 6 amp rate, needle stays about 4 amps. Hour or so after charging they read 12.7 to 12.9 volts.

SUPER SCORE today! A free 90ft tower, already disassembled! It was used for a cell tower, its a basic lattice tower, 1 section is a bit damaged, but I can weld . Should be able to get a good 60 ft main tower, and use the remaining 30 ft for a quick and dirty test tower. And it gets better! All the batteries I can lug! He says they weigh between 80 and 180 lbs each Note to other builders, make friends with the guy that repairs the cell towers in your area .

Kristi

[fabricator]

As a general rule it's not a good idea to mix batteries, they should all be the same AH or they will get charged unevenly,
If you are looking for a battery box and you don't want to use wood places like West Marine sell shore boxes that would make a good battery box and they are water tight.

[birdhouse]

Hour or so after charging they read 12.7 to 12.9 volts.

you'll want to get them much higher than that!  up into the high 13's or low 14's would be a good start.  if any are below 12v resting, charge those first to keep sulfation at bay.  as Fab pointed out, it's best to use all 8-D's, or all of another type.  with all these free batteries coming in, you many want to see what all you can get, and use the best/most of a given style. 

don't be afraid to leave a single 8-D on that charger in the 6A setting for many hours.  these batteries may take some doing to get them back into good shape.  read up here on reviving batteries.  just make sure you keep the electrolyte levels up.  keep in mind if you fill a battery while it's near dead, it will be overfilled while fully charged. 

try searching this site for "bank maint" or "battery problems" ect.  you'll dig up some good info for sure!

[spottrouble]

Fabricator
Right now I just have the 5 identical DECA 8D batteries.

Birdhouse
Removed last pair of batts from charger a few hours ago, amps meter on charger was down to 3 amps after 2 days of charging. After removing charger both batts read 13.5 -13.6V, I'll check them again this evening and see what they read. All 5 batteries were resting around 12.5v when I got them, all needed distilled water, went through 1.5 gallons to top all 5 off. First battery in the lineup is now on charger by itself with meter reading 6 amps when first connected, this is the only battery in the group that got noticeably warm on the first charging cycle.

Hope to go pickup the tower tomorrow .

I'll do more reading on batteries this evening.

Kristi

[birdhouse]

kristi-
you're doing great!  sounds like those 8D's are going to be a great start for your system.  they may even last years! 

what's the max amps the multi DC source will put out?  if it were me, the next thing i would do is hook up all batteries (with proper crimped interconnects), and try to get them boiling some.  get them up to 14.5V and let them sit there for a few hours.  just check temps and water levels while doing this.  it should be the final step to doing about all you can for treating this used bank well! 

now you just need some solar and a charge controller to do this for you!   

adam

[fabricator]

I'll second that advice.

[birdhouse]

kristi-
are you in a decnt wind location?  if so, forget the solar, and build that mill!  it could be running like mine.  i think it's a very similar motor, in fact i think you'rs has slightly more torque (better)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYgva48juZ4&list=UUabajWb3cDP2fzWZCO4x2Bw&index=4&feature=plcp

adam

[just-doug]

depends on your neighborhood,but i find a old refrigerator makes a nice case for a small off grid system.i put the charge controllers in the old freezer setion,batteries in the fridges on racks.since your a scraper,keep a eye open for a large free standing restaurant cooler,the sturdier the better.then stack those 8d in there.throw a pad lock on the doors to keep the kids out.then you can move it with you when your ready.

[spottrouble]

Well its been raining since midnite last night, so tower pickup is on hold, probably not till friday now because its too muddy to get the trailer out , I hate rain!

The batteries that were at 13+ volts yesterday, were down to 12.59 and 12.6 by about 10pm last night, no load, not connected to anything, is this normal? Or indicative of.......?

Solar is going to be a part of this system, in the summer the wind does not always blow, but you can guarantee the sun will be shining.

Since it was raining and there is not much that could be done today I went shopping for a few things that I need to build the chassis, completely struck out on finding 3" and 3.5" pipe, gotta go to the big city to find those. Next stop was looking at available wood for the prop, nothing in 2x6 sizes was suitable, way too many knots and grain orientation is wrong. Found some clear woods in smaller sizes that I could laminate, and grain orientation is correct. Choices are Pine, Southern Yellow Pine, "white wood", Aspen, Poplar and Red Oak, there was a cedar section, and its labled "clear cedar", but its full of knots. Any of these woods good for prop building, or should I look for something else?

Birdhouse
The location I'm working on now is in central Texas, Class 1 winds according to charts, yet I'm almost at the top of the only hill out here on the plains, the Hill Country starts about 6 miles west of here, predominant winds are out of the South and North. Many days when its crazy windy here, I can go to town and sit on the patio at the coffee shop and read the paper and its barely breezy there. If its too windy to read a paper in town, you end up walking at a 45 degree angle at my place

Doug
I'm not a scrapper (although some of my friends might argue that statement), I'm an Industrial Asset Reclamation Specialist , scrap yards are just great places to find "jewels in the junk" . I'll keep my eyes open for a big fridge/freezer, but if this guy has as many batteries as he implied, I might just have to build a shed .

Kristi

[birdhouse]

The batteries that were at 13+ volts yesterday, were down to 12.59 and 12.6 by about 10pm last night, no load, not connected to anything, is this normal? Or indicative of.......?

yes, this is fairly normal.  battery voltage can move all over the place.  put a 55w headlight on one of your 8d's and the voltage will likely drop to 12.2 or so.  take it back off, and the voltage will jump back to 12.6. 

i run a 24v system, so half it all for 12v.  but at night, my bank will be at 24.6 while powering small loads, then the wind genny will start putting out, and voltage will jump to 29v.  then the wind dies, and back to 24.6.  then if i turn off the inverter and loads, it will jump to 25.6...  you get the picture. 

as far as wood species, use whatever is the best quality in your location.  folks have built good blade sets out of cedar, fir, poplar, oak, redwood, pine, and who knows what else.  sure, the lighter blade sets will react quicker to gusts ect, but if the cost is double for the wood??  (redwood/cedar)  just find some knot free solid straight wood and carve away.  for me, cheap, strong and correctly carved, outweighs wood species.  i laminated clear fir for my blade set, and don't think twice thats it's any better or worse than any other material.   

you may actually be in a zone II judging by your description.  or even a II-III.  local differences can play a huge roll in actual wind speeds.  i studied the wind maps at my place and i think i'm at a III-IV.  my buddy does some crazy algorythm thing for some wind company, and he thought with a 70' tower i'd get an average of 12.6mph based on gps coordinates.  there are spots from me 1/2 mile away when your either in a valley, or on a treeless ridge...  so who knows what those numbers really mean. 

adam

[fabricator]

Did you really boil those batteries? 50-60 amps for two-three hours?

[birdhouse]

50-60 amps for two-three hours?

i doubt it will take that many amps.  in my experience, with a smallish battery bank, it takes some amps to get the batteries up to equalization voltage, but not very much to keep them there. 

my bank is 480Ah @ 24v.  it takes less than 5A to hold them at high voltage for equalize...

adam

[spottrouble]

DC power supply is rated for 0-40V @ 0-20amps, voltage regulation (Load .01%/Line .01%), RMS Ripple 1mV , I have no idea what those last 3 things mean.

Talked to guys at welding supply and plumbing supply today about 3.5" dia pipe, both said it was going to be a special order, and expensive because its not an imported or common size, they even said 4" would be cheaper. So somewhere in this forum I read that 3.5" pipe for the chassis, and 3" pipe for the tower top were a good fit (the yaw bearing). Starting to wonder if 2.5" for tower top and 3" for chassis might be better, anybody have thoughts on this?

In looking at the chassis's/yaw bearings of wind turbines it appears most just sit on the tower top pipe, does gravity alone keep them there? Is there a rule of thumb ie. for every foot of diameter of turbine you need x length of yaw bearing, sure would suck to have the whole thing lift on the tower and come crashing down

Kristi

[fabricator]

When you want steel stock you go to a steel suppler, those other guys are FOS, you can get structural steel tube in almost any size, so either go to a steel supply outfit or a local fabrication shop and they'll set you up.

[SparWeb]

Exactly - that pipe is no "special order".  I don't know what they're talking about.

Something to bear in mind:  "PIPE" is not the same as "TUBE".

They obviously look the same, but they are made for different purposes and different dimensions rule over them.

Pipe is usually defined by the inside diameter, and there is a "schedule" of wall thicknesses and diameters that are common.  A google search will quicly turn this up, it's just a big table of diameters and wall thicknesses to choose from. 

Tube is defined by the outside diameter, and a variety of wall thicknesses are available going up in increments of 1/16" usually.  Here you do have to look for what's common and what's not, and without experience it's hard to know in advance. 

There are plenty of nation-wide suppliers in the USA (assuming you're in the USA) and I can find more when I call local suppliers.  If something is not in stock at one place, I call around until I find it.  I used to like Earle Jorgensen but they cater less to my industry, now.  Their website is still a great reference though.

For your tower, you can go with either pipe or tube.  Pipe is usually cheaper for the same approximate size, but tubing is easer to make structural joints that fit nicely.

[spottrouble]

Well we used to have a steel supplier locally, but as the area has gone "High Tech" those kinds of businesses have slowly disappeared.  The local welding supply has an in-house fab shop so they stock a limited supply of steel, if your just needing a few feet its cheaper going there, even if they are kinda high priced because the big yards (hour away) want minimum$ orders and only sell full lengths.

So is the consensus that 3" pipe (schedule 40) is best for the tower top stub?

Dug thru the scrap pile this morning and found a piece of 3.5" pipe, about 24" long.

Kristi

[just-doug]

since your talking tower tops,yawl bearings.Dana 60 truck axles are common and cheap to somepeople.if you pull the drive axles out,cut  the bearings/tube housing off the center section.now you will have two tower tops/yawl bearings complete with timken bearings from each Axel.strip them down.wiring will run down tower where drive Axel used to be.cut center out of old rim,bolt to hub.this is where you weld the rest of the build to

[spottrouble]

Looked at some of the pipe sizing charts, dooh, pipe is measured by ID, not OD, so those 4" pipes I was passing over were actually 3.5" pipe, and that 1 piece of 3.5" od pipe is actually 3" pipe. According to charts Schedule 40  3" pipe has a 3.5" OD, and 3.5" pipe has 3.555" ID, so that only leaves .025" clearance, as long as there is no internal seam thats a nice fit.

Of course in all this I found the statement that pipe is for transfering fluids and gasses, whereas tubing should be used for structural applications. And tubing is measured by outside diameter, so now I have to go look at tubing charts, 3.5" seamless sounds expensive.

[SparWeb]

3.5" seamless sounds expensive.

You bet it is!

There are alternatives.  You can also look for pipe/tube by its application.  For instance, well drilling pipe is common around here in Alberta (guess why) though you won't want to use that for a tower.  Also common are materials specially made for pipeline, irrigation, and fluid processing applications.  That too means that it's expensive...   when it's new.  Sometimes well-connected people get their hands on extras, left-overs, etc.  Keep your eyes open and drive through the back-alleys behind machine shops    Don't forget to bring your flatbed trailer.

I went with 3" pipe for my 40' tower, to hold a 8-foot diameter turbine.  You would think that's heavy enough, but it actually wiggles and dances when the turbine is running full-tilt.  I guess if I had to measure, it's 1/2" flex, half-way between guy wire attachments, which isn't a lot, but certainly visible to the naked eye.

[RP]

For instance, well drilling pipe is common around here in Alberta (guess why) though you won't want to use that for a tower.

I'm curious about this since I always assumed it would be an appropriate material. 

Can you expound on why well pipe is a bad choice?

[spottrouble]

RP
My #1 guess would be its too heavy.

SparWeb
1/2" flex on 3" pipe (3.5"OD?), ok so maybe 3" is not overkill

After reading some more, and thinking about it all day, I've come up with a solution that I think would work. The tight tolerance between 3" and 3.5" would require grease (grease streaking down the tower does not appeal to me), and I see Birdhouse mentioned his turbine was having trouble tracking after awhile. So what I'm thinking is 2 pipes (or tubing), with approximately 1/2" difference between Id of outer tube (turbine chassis)and OD of inner tube (tower top), then using Delrin to make bushings.

Too much work today trying to meet friday deadlines, and friend that's supposed to help me is too busy getting race car ready for the weekend, so I did not get to pickup the tower today

Kristi

[spottrouble]

Got to do some Amp testing on the DC treadmill motors this evening, first up was the Star Trac motor mentioned earlier in this thread

164 rpm  @ 0 amps
266 rpm  @ .5 amps (13.8v)
418 rpm  @ 2.25 amps
500 rpm @ 4.25 amps
685 rpm @ 6 amps
805 rpm @ 10.25 amps
1270 rpm @ 14 amps

Next up was the Pacific Scientific treadmill motor
418 rpm @ 0 amps (12.32v)
500 rpm @ 2.5 amps
685 rpm @ 6.5 amps
805 rpm @ 14.25 amps
1270 rpm @ 30 Amps (pegged gauge!)

Now you notice I left out voltage on most of these readings, because I'm a bit confused. I thought battery "clamped" generator at battery voltage, yet what I observed was voltage increasing with rpm, stopped several of the tests because voltage was slowly increasing, when it got to 18V I shut it down. Voltage was measured at terminals of the motor. Did I do something wrong?

I'm thinking Star Trac motor would work best as direct drive with a fast 2 blade prop, PS motor would probably work better with a 1:1.5 or 1:2 gear increaser. Any thoughts?

Next in line for testing is a Fanuc motor, I have 4 huge diodes from a welding machine, and I believe it takes 4 diodes to build a  bridge rectifier. These diodes have a cable pigtail on 1 end, and other end (threaded) is about 3/4" diameter, so I'd need a big heat sink, and some monster ring terminals, maybe I should just buy one already built?

Kristi

[Flux]

The battery will clamp the voltage when not fully charged. Unless you have some sort of load the battery will charge and if you start with it reasonably charged anyway you will find the volts gradually rising.

Once you reach over 13v the battery will be near full  charge and from then on it will go into gassing state and the voltage will no longer stay clamped. If you push the charge hard enough and for long enough it will start to gas violently and you can get things up to 18v. This is not good long term.

If you connect some load ( lamps or similar) across the battery that are removing a similar number of amps to the charge you expect it will clamp better. If your load is too small and volts start rising again, stop the tests and let the load do some discharging for a while then you will be able to complete the tests.

The stud diodes will be ideal but you will need some heat sinks or aluminium plate. If you can manage to mount them they will be much better than commercial potted bridges but most people prefer the simplicity of the potted bridge that can be mounted on one heat sink. with individual diodes you need separate sinks or insulated mounting kits.If they are all the same polarity diodes you canmount two on a common sink and get away with 3. If you have a choice of diode polarities you can manage with 2 sinks with 2 positive anodes on one and 2 positive cathodes on the other. May be too confusing for you at this stage.

Flux

[dave ames]

Hey Kristi,

Sweet spinning goodness    That Star Trac motor turned out to be a respectable find after all.

Should make for an honest little 100 watter! Not much of a blade guy, but should think a standard three blade prop in the four foot diameter range should do.

Time to look for some kind of battery regulation! A great problem to have..

Are you still thinking of flying this small one while you get the big servo ready?

Fun stuff!
Cheers, Dave

[spottrouble]

Flux
I'm pretty sure I can find a few good heat sinks . I'll check diode polarities tomorrow, thought they were all the same, but that was before I knew they could be different. Yeah, I'm a little confused, but I'll figure it out, worst case scenario I'll ask electrical buddy for help. Growing up I played with electronics, and dad was Ham operator (from the days when you had to build a radio to get a license), so I know what all the parts are by looking at them, but if you dumped out all the parts needed to build something and put a gun to my head and told me to build, I have to tell you to pull the trigger .

Next time I do some testing I'll have additional loads. Thanks!

Dave
Yes the Star Trac turbine will be first, still want a small turbine for the RV. I've decided to just do a 2 blade (1 piece) for this one so its easier to tear down and stow. Picked up 2 - 8 foot long pieces (1"x2")  of Poplar, and 1- 4 foot piece of Oak today, Oak will be the center strip in the lamination to give it a stiffer spine. I'm going to do the table saw method, looks a whole lot easier than the chainsaw.

PS genny will be next, its already mounted on a base with a pillow block bearing mounted shaft for gear reduction, trying to figure out ratio's is what brought me to this site, not sure where it will go yet.

I was thinking over coffee this morning that I'm probably going to have to hold off on testing Fanuc motors till I get the larger lathe out of storage (needed to do that anyways) because my little lathe did ok till the 805 rpm range, but it did not like the 1270 rpm load. Thinking I might not be able to get past 500 rpm with a heavy load.

Friend has promised twice she is going to show up and help me resize pics, so far she is a no-show, but I'll stay on it and start getting some pics up soon.

Thanks everybody!
Kristi

[birdhouse]

The tight tolerance between 3" and 3.5" would require grease (grease streaking down the tower does not appeal to me), and I see Birdhouse mentioned his turbine was having trouble tracking after awhile. So what I'm thinking is 2 pipes (or tubing), with approximately 1/2" difference between Id of outer tube (turbine chassis)and OD of inner tube (tower top), then using Delrin to make bushings.

yea, my turbine isn't tracking well these days, but just got a sheet of delrin in the mail today.  gonna make two "washers" that go between the top tower stub, and the outer yaw tube.  that should do it...  with lots of grease.  i think i'm even gonna put grease nurps in midway along the yaw pipe. i think avoiding grease is a bad idea! 

adam

[spottrouble]

My first laminate for a 4ft 2 blade prop is clamped and setting  . My copy of Homebrew Wind Power arrived this morning, I'll devour it tonight.

I make Delrin bushings for my friends race cars all the time, we never use grease on those, and they go though hell.  Delrin has great sliding friction qualities, if your mast pipe is nice and smooth no more than a touch of grease would be required at best, let it run for awhile and it will actually polish the metal. If the pipe is rough to begin with.... thats a whole nother story. I'd try it without grease first, if your not happy just a dab will do

Kristi