Author Topic: Wind vs solar  (Read 20211 times)

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Frank S

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Re: Wind vs solar
« Reply #66 on: November 07, 2012, 04:41:24 PM »
Sounds like trying to have a 2 way conversation on a radio the only way 2 could talk at the same time would be to use 2 different freqs one guy broad casting at freq1 while listening on freq 2 the second listening on freq 1 & broad casting on freq 2
 to do what you are thinking of maybe  run 2 sets of cabling out put from home inverter to input of micro grid inverter 
second set of wires from grid to home
 now the home inverter thinks it is supplying a bank and the home a choke in each set of cables prevents reverse feed
 Might need to have additional MPPT's and possibly invertes to do the sending and receiving to and from the grid
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ChrisOlson

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Re: Wind vs solar
« Reply #67 on: November 07, 2012, 05:00:33 PM »
That Jacobs inverter is in the back corner of my shop.  I should drag it out and take a picture of it to post here.  It weighs close to 1,000 lbs and it's about 5 feet tall and 3 feet wide.  I have to use the forklift to move it.

It has MPPT, but it's a mechanical type of MPPT with a huge transformer in it that has tap changers on it.  It also has a "choke" separate from the inverter, that weighs about 500-600 lbs.  It's a 25 kVA inverter but it's not at all "sophisticated".
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Chris

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Re: Wind vs solar
« Reply #68 on: November 07, 2012, 05:15:18 PM »
Sounds like me.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

Frank S

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Re: Wind vs solar
« Reply #69 on: November 07, 2012, 05:26:25 PM »
That Jacobs inverter is in the back corner of my shop.  I should drag it out and take a picture of it to post here.  It weighs close to 1,000 lbs and it's about 5 feet tall and 3 feet wide.  I have to use the forklift to move it.

It has MPPT, but it's a mechanical type of MPPT with a huge transformer in it that has tap changers on it.  It also has a "choke" separate from the inverter, that weighs about 500-600 lbs.  It's a 25 kVA inverter but it's not at all "sophisticated".
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It sounds just dumb enough that I might want one eventually should fit right in with my stupidity about things
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ChrisOlson

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Re: Wind vs solar
« Reply #70 on: November 07, 2012, 05:34:09 PM »
It sounds just dumb enough that I might want one eventually should fit right in with my stupidity about things

I ain't no electronics wizard so I don't understand totally how it works.  It has circuit boards in it too.  But it was built in the early 80's.  I'll see if I can get it out later - I got a whole bunch of stuff piled in front of it and can't get to it at present.

It was built for the Jacobs 31-20 turbine and Jakes were famous for blowing these old inverters all to hell in high winds.  It converts three phase 60-180 volt to 240 volt split phase.  And the tap changers click from on tap to the other as the turbine changes speed.

It was actually one of the crudest things I'd ever seen in my life when I first saw it.  But after I got to studying it it was not quite as crude as I thought because I can't figure out how it works    :D
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Frank S

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Re: Wind vs solar
« Reply #71 on: November 07, 2012, 05:48:50 PM »


JACOBS Model 31-20 SPECIFICATIONS:
Output .........Grid intertie 240 volt AC 60 Hz -1 phase power
Rating ...................................................................... 20 kilowatt
Rotor Type ........................................... 3 blade variable pitch
Rotor diameter ..............................................................31 feet
Ratio-Rotor to alternator ....................................................1:6
Cut-in wind speed ........................................................ 8 mph
Peak output .............................................................. 25.5 mph
Rotor RPM at rated output power .................................175
Transmission...................................Offset Hypoid gear drive
Alternator Type......Brushless,3 phase with outboard exciter
Protection- Yaw control.....................................Duel fold tail
Protection- Overspeed..................Blade actuated governor
Protection- High wind/storm.......................Offset rotor axis

Tower
Tower Type: Free standing, 3 leg design / angle iron leg construction
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Frank S

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Re: Wind vs solar
« Reply #72 on: November 07, 2012, 05:52:52 PM »


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ChrisOlson

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Re: Wind vs solar
« Reply #73 on: November 07, 2012, 06:26:17 PM »
Yeah.  I know.  I got two of 'em in the 23-10 version.  I had one running for awhile.  Never did get the other one running.  The one I got running had a tower strike and blew all the blades off it in the late 80's.  It sat on the tower for over 20 years with no blades on it.  I took it down and the governor shafts were bent and it blew the snap ring off the mainshaft where it holds the ring gear.

I put a new governor on it and found some blades that a guy had stored up in the rafters of a barn down in southern Minnesota.  I did a bunch of machine work in the gearbox and got that fixed.  The exciter was dead but that came back to life after I flashed it.  I tried to use it for battery charging and that was a disaster.  I tried to use it for grid tie on a mini-grid and that was a disaster.  Then I tried to sell it and that was a disaster because nobody wants it.

















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Chris

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Re: Wind vs solar
« Reply #74 on: November 07, 2012, 06:34:43 PM »
The thing you see behind that bottom black arrow is the alternator, There is one about two miles from here on an 80 foot tower, it's about 25 years old all the blade are blown off it you can see where the blades hit the tower, the property changed hands about three times since it was installed and the first owner was the only one who ever used it.
I offered the new owner to take it down for free and get it off his property before it fell on a rental house that is right next to it, he said yeah you can do that but I want $5K for it, I basically said F you, it would cost $10K+ to get that thing flying again, that was pretty much the end of negotiations.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

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Re: Wind vs solar
« Reply #75 on: November 07, 2012, 06:38:17 PM »
Chris, what's that chain for? Manual brake? Manual furling?
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

ChrisOlson

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Re: Wind vs solar
« Reply #76 on: November 07, 2012, 07:06:38 PM »
The chain goes to the disc brake on it, that's used for parking when you service the turbine.  In the second picture you can see the caliper and brake disc.  The gear box is 1:6 so it don't take a real big brake to hold it from turning with the brake on the high speed shaft.

On that Jake 23-10 down by you there, it has the old 1.25" governor on it.  If it had a 1.75 governor it would've never blown the blades off it.  The 1.25's flex and the blades hit the tower from the shaft flex.  They went to a 1.75 governor on the 31-20 and those can be retrofit to the 23-10.  But you have to build up the roots on the blades and bore the roots for the bigger sleeves for the 1.75 governor.  Or you can buy a set of 31-20 blades and cut them down to 23 feet.

The original Jakes like mine had Sitka Spruce blades.  The 31-20's have glass blades.  A new set of glass blades is $14,000.  There's a few sets of good Spruce blades if you dig deep enough.  But you'll pay $7 Grand for a good set that's not rotted.  A new 1.75 governor is $3,500.
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Frank S

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Re: Wind vs solar
« Reply #77 on: November 07, 2012, 07:07:03 PM »
About the best thing they had going for them was the exciter but like you said they would die from not being used the main shaft and gear box was disproportionaly small for the turbine swept area the feathering or pitch control was fine when brand new but not well suited for decades of service life Snap rings are a poor excuse for a retainer when moments are created from centrifugal forces
 the chain that was supposed operate the brake was subject to stretch when the tail whipped back and forth when furling OR I may be thinking of the chain being used as a ground based mechanical brake application devise
I've only been up close to 1 or 2 while they were on the ground  but they looked to me like they needed a different style of main hub casting, it just looked like a bomb ready to explode if the braking  feathering or furling systems failed
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ChrisOlson

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Re: Wind vs solar
« Reply #78 on: November 07, 2012, 07:28:53 PM »
I've only been up close to 1 or 2 while they were on the ground  but they looked to me like they needed a different style of main hub casting, it just looked like a bomb ready to explode if the braking  feathering or furling systems failed

It may look that way.  But they are one of the most indestructible turbines ever built.  A 31-20 will continue to run in 100 mph winds, putting out way more power than the inverters could handle.  And then the inverters would blow and unload the turbine and it would sit there on the tower running unloaded in 100 mph wind and still survive.

They got a new Nexus inverter now that will actually handle their power.

The main problem was the lightweight governor on the 23-10's.

Joe and Marcellus Jacobs built turbines from 1931 to 1958 in Minneapolis.  They supplied a turbine to the Richard Evelyn Byrd expedition to the South Pole in 1933.  A US Navy plane flew over the old outpost in 1955 and that turbine was found to still be running after over 20 years in the most severe conditions know to man.

Marcellus and his son Paul moved manufacturing back to to Minneapolis after they invented the 23-10 down in Ft Meyers, Florida.  Joe and Marcellus Jacobs will forever remain the original pioneers of the wind power industry.  You can find this story on Paul's website still today someplace on there - it was in Mother Earth News at one point:

On June 2nd and 3rd, 1973 a Wind Energy Conversion Workshop was held in Washington, D.C. The gathering was sponsored by the National Science Foundation and implemented by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration.

Well sir...conferences and symposiums and workshops and all the other fancy meetings held to "study" a problem are all right, I suppose. But a fellow sometimes wonders if they're worth the trouble it takes to organize them. 

This particular assembly was no exception. For, we're told, after nearly two days of absorbing reports and addresses from people who've experimented with and used wind power...many of the "experts" and "engineers" there still didn't have what you could call a grasp of the energy source's potential. "You mean you really run all your lights and appliances and a typewriter and stereo and TV on electricity produced by a wind plant? You mean you're doing that right now?" one incredulous engineer asked Henry Clews.

"I mean, if this thing actually works we should find out if it's practical enough to put into production." 

It was then that an authoritative-looking 70-year-old gentleman rose to his feet and educated the audience about wind power history. He said, in effect: "Why, you young whippersnapper. You're trying to reinvent the wheel. Not only will wind plants work...not only can they be put into production...and not only can they be manufactured and sold profitably...but I personally built and marketed approximately 50 million dollars worth of the units from the early 30's to the mid-50's. We were already in full swing before you were born."


That gentleman that addressed the symposium that day in Washington DC was Marcellus Jacobs.  Marcellus never had any engineering degrees.  He learned everything from experience.  And later on when the wind power business became more popular he was not afraid to tell degreed engineers that they didn't know what the hell they're doing when it came to wind power.  And it turned out Marcellus was right every single time.

Ahh... here's Paul's website.  He's still maintaining it:

http://www.jacobswind.net/

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« Last Edit: November 07, 2012, 08:14:24 PM by ChrisOlson »

Frank S

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Re: Wind vs solar
« Reply #79 on: November 08, 2012, 11:05:01 AM »
First off Chris I am always looking at older technology with mostly open eyes.
 I did like the 2 old genies that I saw but both were little more than broken rusty hulks in a scrap yard.
 I had read about the on in Antarctica but hadn't associated it with the ones that I saw probably because there had been a lot of years and dying brain cells between times

 Now onto Oztules grid tie grid on another thread I mentioned something about micro grids or small local community grid storage backup systems.
 Now he has this spread over 2 different threads and it may be hard to follow. I think talk of a grid tie grid may be better served in a new thread entirely with possible reference links to these threads
 A shared storage among 10 to 50 users either with or without a major grid connected to a larger mini grid of up to 50 micro grids would seem to have certain merits especially if said system had  what I will term as a super cell bank with lateral cross ties between micro grids creating a honeycomb grid system during times of in-climate weather or other natural disruptive events being without power could become a paragraph in history for several places. Particularly places like Island communities who seem to lose their power every time there is a low tide coupled with a full moon on a cloudy day   
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ChrisOlson

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Re: Wind vs solar
« Reply #80 on: November 08, 2012, 11:47:26 AM »
The Jacobs boys built two distinct different families of turbines over the years.  The DC models like the Jake Model 25 were built from the early 30's to the late 50's.  The grid-tie models (23-10, etc.) were built from the early 70's thru today (now owned by Wind Turbine Industries Corp, or WTIC, in Prior Lake, Minnesota:
http://www.windturbine.net/

They have all earned a reputation of surviving conditions no other turbine will survive in.  The grid tie units are also VERY expensive.  You're looking at $70,000 for a 31-20 on a 120 foot Rohn SSV tower, and usually another $30,000 for installation.  They require a crane on-site, they require major excavation and concrete in the tower base, and they require people installing them that know what they're doing.  They are far beyond what the average DIY'er can install and get running.

Bergey Wind Power surpassed Jacobs for sales in the grid tie business with their Excel 10 turbine because it's way cheaper than a Jake.  Bergey came on the scene in about 1985.  Mike Bergey more targeted the residential market instead of the farm and ranch market:
http://bergey.com/

So today Bergey installs Excel turbines for smaller systems.  Jacobs still installs a few for those who can afford them.  There's literally hundreds of Jacobs grid-tie turbines that have been running for 40 years all across the upper Midwest.  There's better than a dozen of them within a 80 mile circle from our place.

The guys who service Jacobs turbines (there's only a couple left) are grizzled veterans who will climb a 120 foot tower in 40 mph winds at 30 below in North Dakota to grease the turntable on a 31-20 with the turbine running flat out.  And they still do things like lower and raise a 120 foot Rohn with a 3,600 lb turbine on it using a 20 ton deadman buried in the ground to anchor the service truck to, put a 40 foot gin on the tower and use a 30,000 lb hydraulic winch to winch it up and down.

The guys who service Bergey turbines are mostly a new breed that are not equipped to handle the massive amounts of iron in a Jacobs turbine.  One of the Jacobs guys that's left around here, just to show how nothing phases a man that services Jacobs turbines, had a service truck that got wore out over the years so he bought a new one.  He welded a framework under that old truck and mounted it on a 120 foot Rohn tower with a crane on a Jacobs 31-20 turntable.  He put a tail on it and the whole nine yards and it turns like a weathervane in the wind up on there on that tower.  That's the kind of guys that work on Jacobs turbines.  They ain't afraid of iron and there is no such thing as plastic and aluminum in their world.

Bergey Wind Power once stated right on their website:
Wind turbines can run up to 7,500 hours per year and during storms they must endure tremendous forces. The history of the industry dating back to the 1920's clearly shows that lightweight turbines do not stand the test of time. The heavy duty Jacobs turbines from the 1930's can still be found running today. Their lightweight competitors are long gone

So basically, even the new guy on the block does not ignore the lessons in wind power that the Jacobs boys learned and taught us on how to build a wind turbine that will survive.  Steve Jacobs, Marcellus' grandson, is on this forum.  He checks in here every now and then - the last I heard he was searching for an old DC model to restore.
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« Last Edit: November 08, 2012, 11:57:02 AM by ChrisOlson »

dloefffler

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Re: Wind vs solar
« Reply #81 on: November 11, 2012, 11:58:59 PM »
Chris,

Are there any complete plans for the Jacobs'? It would seem that patents have expired.

Dennis

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Re: Wind vs solar
« Reply #82 on: November 12, 2012, 08:23:33 AM »
No, there is no plans.  Jacobs turbines are manufactured in Prior Lake, Minnesota today:
http://windturbine.net/

WTIC bought the manufacturing rights to the machines from Control Data Corporation in 1986.  Marcellus had sold a controlling interest in the company to CDC in the late 70's, shortly after re-opening the shop and beginning the manufacture of the turbines in Minneapolis.
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finnsawyer

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Re: Wind vs solar
« Reply #83 on: November 21, 2012, 11:30:00 PM »
     Oz, I don't think your data for Houghton reflects reality.  You see, I live nine miles northwest of Houghton and a mlie from Lake Superior.  There is eighty miles of water between me and Canada.  When the average daily temperature drops in the twenties an eighty mile cloud forms on the lake and hangs there.  The wind drives it ashore and guess what happens?  It snows and snows, sometimes for weeks at a time.  Those hot photons have a hard time getting through the cloud and snow to any solar panel.  Besides the sun's angle is only about twenty degrees from the middle of November to February.  Snow totals during that time exceed 100 inches.
    Also, considering that that low sun angle also corresponds to only about eight hours of daylight versus sixteen hours at a much higher sun angle in the summer. the numbers given for power available don't seem right either.  Of course, to capture all that summer power would require one to track the sun.
     Bottom line?  Winter solar power here would be rather marginal. :)

ChrisOlson

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Re: Wind vs solar
« Reply #84 on: November 21, 2012, 11:58:17 PM »
Besides the sun's angle is only about twenty degrees from the middle of November to February.  Snow totals during that time exceed 100 inches.

Let me add that here in Wisconsin just a little while west of you, the amount of solar power that can actually make it thru the cloud deck on a cloudy day is about zero.  Most people express dismay that we cannot get 25% of rated power on a cloudy day.  But the problem is that if you have a 2,000 ft thick cloud deck with the sun shining thru it 30 degrees off the horizon at solar noon the sunlight has to pass thru over 4,000 feet of clouds instead of 2,000 like it does when the sun is overhead.

By the time those sun rays get to the solar panel there's nothing left.  So all the solar panel can do is provide about 5% of rated power from ambient light from the cloud deck, caused the sun illuminating it from up above.

We're only one month from the winter solstice here now and had a sunny day today.  We got a grand total of only 9 kWh from 3.5 kW of installed solar capacity.  Yesterday it was cloudy and we got only 800 watt-hours from those panels all day.

My favorite phrase is that solar panels up here in the North are "worthless as tits on a boar pig" from Nov 1 to Feb 1, or about 1/3 of the year.  And for the two months on either side of that they're pretty marginal for what you get out of them compared to what they cost.

Now I don't know what your wind is like in Houghton tonight, but my turbines are all running baby.  They work in the dark and in the light.  They work when it's cloudy and when it's clear.  They work when it's raining and when it's snowing so heavy you can't see 100 feet.  As long as the air is moving, which is just about always, they make power.  24 hours a day.
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Re: Wind vs solar
« Reply #85 on: November 22, 2012, 09:30:26 AM »
Over here on the west coast of MI we have had two weeks of very abnormal weather for this time of year, there has been absolutely no wind  for two weeks and it has been sunny and in the 50's to lower 60's. Usually this time of year we are under the lake affect cloud getting snow every day, the same micro climate Finn described.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

ChrisOlson

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Re: Wind vs solar
« Reply #86 on: November 22, 2012, 10:17:52 AM »
We've had a stiff wind out of the SSW all night and supposed to blow harder today and get snow later tonight and tomorrow with a high of 16 degrees.  The wind re-bulked and absorbed our bank last night and she's in Float this morning at daylight.  Might get a few watt-hours from those solar panels today before they get covered with snow     8)
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Re: Wind vs solar
« Reply #87 on: November 22, 2012, 10:28:10 AM »
Yeah that system is supposed to eventually get here, the wind is coming up out of the SSW this morning, first wind in weeks, supposed to go from 65 this afternoon to 30 by evening then snow showers tomorrow. Typical of around here you can go from late summer early fall to winter in 12 hours.
It's all the fault of those Cannucks the cold comes from up there.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

ChrisOlson

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Re: Wind vs solar
« Reply #88 on: November 22, 2012, 08:56:08 PM »
I've heard it said that a picture is worth a thousand words.  Just went out to the wood pile to grab an armload and snapped this with my cell phone.  We'll call it "Solar Panels On A Roof Floating In Outer Space".   :o



Meanwhile my wind turbines are Runnin' Big.  Real Frickin' Big   8)

2,200 watts of load on in the house, pitch black outside with a raging blizzard and not a single photon of solar power to be found and our bank is at what my wife calls "Green One Hunnerd"



Don't believe it for an instant when somebody tries to tell you wind power don't work.
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« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 09:14:49 PM by ChrisOlson »

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Re: Wind vs solar
« Reply #89 on: November 22, 2012, 09:47:20 PM »
Gotta love the green hunnerd : ) we are on the rain side right now but the temp has dropped 20 degrees in the last hour, looks like it's gonna be a mess in the morning, damned Cannuck arctic blast!
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

ChrisOlson

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Re: Wind vs solar
« Reply #90 on: November 22, 2012, 10:05:11 PM »
Them poor folks with just solar power are sacking their batteries tonight hoping the sun will shine tomorrow.  But it won't - just cloudy, windy and more snow.  So they completely sack the bank then finally break down and start the generator.

Us folks with wind power wake up in the morning with the bank at "Green One Hunnerd", ready for another day.

The Bliz is doing the counterclockwise Toilet Flush over Lake Superior.  It's 18 degrees here with the wind howling out of the NW at 30-35 per.  I think all you got down there is a little rain shower passin' thru:



Check this out; which box do you think might have a turbine rectifier in it?  LOL!



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« Last Edit: November 22, 2012, 10:16:13 PM by ChrisOlson »

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Re: Wind vs solar
« Reply #91 on: November 23, 2012, 10:14:02 AM »
Yep, we got the wind now but no snow yet, 30-35 NNW, it would be a bad day to be out on Lake Superior or Michigan.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

ChrisOlson

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Re: Wind vs solar
« Reply #92 on: November 23, 2012, 11:04:03 AM »
It would be worse than bad.  You'd die on Superior today.  The freighters have long gone and went south by now and they stay off that lake until April.  Some have tried it in the past.  They're laying on the bottom and none of the crew members have ever been found.

The grandkids are all excited and they're coming over in a couple hours to play in the snow.  They can use the solar panels for a ski jump.  Don't need 'em anyway    8)



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Re: Wind vs solar
« Reply #93 on: November 23, 2012, 01:32:32 PM »
Yeah we got a little blizzard thing goin right now, I'm sure the local law is busy with lots of black Friday ditchings and fender benders.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Wind vs solar
« Reply #94 on: November 23, 2012, 02:26:22 PM »

Besides sunelec that Cardamom mentioned, there are others selling name-brand panels well under $1/watt. Solar Blvd is one such (not the only one); they were recently selling new Sharps under .90, e.g. Right now they have .75/watt for MEMC panels at the pallet size + $300 pallet freight; that's 2800 watts at .86 delivered (can't speak to the quality, but it's probably o.k.). Incidentally, I've found these places give some of their best deals via. their email list. I subscribe using a "junk" email address to avoid cluttering my regular one.


Important question:  Do these panels carry the UL approval?  For some things (like grid interconnect, local code approval, and not voiding your fire insurance) you need that.  If it doubles the price of the panels you're still not below that magic $1/watt level.

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Wind vs solar
« Reply #95 on: November 23, 2012, 02:51:22 PM »
I'd had putting a mill up at my NV place on the to-do list for "right after I've moved out there so I can baby sit it" - and it would also require a zoning variance for me to do a non-toy one legally.  It's a pretty good wind area (though it would require substantial storage, because the wind is largely during a couple hours midafternoon).  But the wind machine and tower would require some substantial work: When it blows it often blows snatch-your-hat HARD.

But it's a FANTASTIC solar location - in a rain shadow on the high desert about 30 miles from Lake Tahoe, where it gets only a very occasional couple of inches of snow when the wind is from the Gulf of Mexico, maybe a couple times a winter.  And the only serious stupidity on the zoning for panels is that you have to hide them from the road and neighbors.  We're on the south side of the road facing a 13 mile nearly-unpopulated valley, so that's not an issue.

With panels under $1/watt a pure solar system makes SO much sense for that site.

I was born and grew up in lower Michigan.  For conditions there (and some other places I've been) I'd been thinking that the ideal (if you don't have a stream suitable for hydro) was a mix of solar and wind.  When it's calm it's usually clear, and when it's not clear it's usually windy.  Solar is strongest when air conditioning is needed while wind tracks heating loads moderately well.  But I agree that if you have sufficient sun this price point makes a pure solar system practical in a far larger set of locations.