wind farm ???

[bob g]

ok folks here goes

locally there is a move afoot to install a windfarm, and of course there are those  both for and against doing such things.

while i have no dog in the hunt so to speak (no land involvement) i have a bit of technical knowledge that the typical landowner (lessor) seems to have.

i have been asked to present some questions to the speculator/developer, and i am a bit unclear on a couple of points, therefore i come to the mountain to see if someone here might have some insights or information to fill the gap.

preface:

one hundred eighteen units, GE 1.7-100 for a total installed capacity of 200mega watts.
current footprint is about 22 square miles, however the set aside by the county zoning is roughly 3 times that amount.

my questions

1.  previous installations called for tower spacing for 5-7 rotor diameters or about .4 miles apart.  however, i have read research by johns hopkins university in conjuction with a university in belgium (name escapes me just now) that would indicated that the spacing ought to be more on the order of 15 rotor diameters...

i have not been able to determine if GE is now recommending the wider spacing?  anyone know if this is the case?

2.  the foot print for the project is right smack in the middle of a micro climate divergent zone, in that 9 times out of 10 when a weather front (rain) comes from the southwest , the front splits going both north and south  and later some 30 miles east coming back together again... this leaves this area a bit short of rain fall...

so my question is this, does anyone have any links or info as to the effects on weather micro climates, most especially those in either convergent or divergent zones?

i figure maybe someone here might either have some input or no someone i can contact to get more information on these matters.

i realize this is not really a small wind concern, however  as one might expect this project has some really concerned folks, and if this goes badly i fear the county might place severe restrictions on all wind power projects, even those micro units more appropriate to a home owner.

currently the county commission is pro wind, and i would like to keep it that way.

thanks
bob g

[SparWeb]

If you want to become an advocate and "pick a side", then get in line, and check your brain at the door. 
If you want to stand in the middle, and attempt to balance all viewpoints with reason, then good luck, but be prepared to learn who your real friends are.

You'd better phone up Paul Gipe and Mick Sagrillo.  For a project the size of this one, you should contact the people who know what it's like being the interface between a community and industrial-scale wind projects.  Each of these two have done this before, and will know pitfalls you haven't even thought of yet.  Many others have been there, too, but Gipe and Sagrillo have been public about it (which is why their names came to mind first).

http://www.wind-works.org/cms/     (Paul Gipe)
http://www.renewwisconsin.org/wind/windtoolbox.htm     (M Sagrillo's e-mail is on this page)
Mick Sagrillo also contributes to a Yahoo group (yeah those still exist) if you have any difficulty getting in touch with him.

Weather and climate data are publicly available.  I don't know how it works in the USA, but in Canada I am able to (and have done so)  phone up local and national weather offices to ask questions about the data they collect - going beyond the highly processed data that's on their websites.  You could even try to talk to a local meteorologist if you think it will lead you to information about local weather patterns that would reduce the effectiveness of this wind farm. 

[electrondady1]

what is the set back distance from existing residential
that is the key to happy neighbors and a successful  installation .

[Mary B]

Buffalo Ridge here in MN affects local weather quite a bit, storms split and go around me quite often and the wind farms along it have not changed a thing. Up slope SW side is often wetter in summer and my side is drier. And that is only a 500 foot rise.

[CraigM]

Bob, do you know the site name for the proposed wind farm? I believe you live in Washington, is it a continuation of Stateline Wind Farm located on Vansycle Ridge?

I work closely with GE in Pensacola where the 1.7 machine head and hub are manufactured. If you know the wind farm site name I could ask around and see who is managing the build. Most likely I'd get directed to a public relations person who may be able to answer some of your questions... in a public relations kind of way.

[bob g]

thanks Craig

i used to live in washington state, we relocated back to kansas about 3years ago now.

the proposed project is a 200mega watt farm to be located in marion county kansas.

any info on the 1.7-100 would be helpful.

for the record i am not trying to be an opponent or a proponent of this project, i am simply trying to find answers to questions that the county planners should be asking for.

it appears everyone here is so giddy about promised income streams and free money that they are simply allowing the promoter to ask and answer questions of himself.

i went to the planning board meeting tonight regarding expansion of needed acreage and had to sit through about an hour or promotion, with very few questions, only to be allowed 2 minutes of questions or opposing views.

they actually gave me about 5-6 minutes, but cut me off when it came to actually asking questions!

there is so much at stake here, and all anyone seems to see or hear is how they or their concerns are going to make money, free money!

of particular interest to me is the sale of a large parcel here in my tiny little town to be used as a staging and maintenance facility.... the promotor relates that if the city agree's to sell the property to his company, the city will gain some 50k dollars in property taxes.

50k buck might as well be 50 million to this little town.

what no one seems to want to address is this,  the windfarm and all of its supporting properties are by statute exempt from any property taxes!  the state has exempted them in entirety.

the promoter has been using promises of "pilot" program payments, (payment in lieu of taxes) to the local school districts, the fire districts, police and ambulance, etc....

it came out tonight that this "pilot" program offer is being offered should the state decide to rescind the property tax exclusion somewhere down the road.... no one seemed to hear or understand this fine point in the presentation.

all we got to hear was praise for the promoter from a representative of the local school district that was just giddy about getting another income stream for the schools.

somehow he too missed the little detail about the project being tax exempt and the little detail about the pilot program only being offered in the unlikely event down the road that the state removes the exclusion.

this whole ordeal has been very enlightening for me, in that it is an excellent example of group think when  free money is mentioned.

"tell the lie, tell it often, and everyone will believe it"

couple that with tell them what they want so badly to hear, and you have a recipe for a real problem.

going back to the city and the piece of property they are so eager to sell to the promoter, because it is within the city limits, the city must provide water and sewer to the property at no cost to the new owners... the cost of which is likely going to exceed the miniscule amount they are asking for the property.

their thinking is, sell it cheap so we can make money on taxes over the long haul, even if it means we will end up spending more than we received in the purchase agreement to provide water and sewer.  "hell at 50 grand a year we will make up any losses really quick"   

my bet is those that are making this decision have grossly underestimated the costs of providing water and sewer as well.

this is just one small facet of an incredibly complex web.

all i know is this, should this thing come to pass, get built and my power bill goes up to offset or subsidize the power from this wind farm, i will be calling the power company to come remove my meter and service!

bob g

[Mary B]

All along Buffalo Ridge similar things were done to put in wind farms. Some didn't work out as well as others but overall it HAS been a revenue stream for what is a poor section of Minnesota. Some f the history and more research into it will show that over all it has been positive http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_Ridge_Wind_Farm Pipestone had a plant making blades but that shut down. Last I heard it had restarted or was in the process of restarting. It has created jobs for technicians, installers, truckers etc. Biggest issue many over looked is the need for the high voltage lines to get the power to where it is needed.

[SparWeb]

Bob,
While you are listening carefully, and thinking clearly, have you considered some "letters to the editor" or some such correspondence with your neighbours and town officials?  You write and argue your point clearly enough that it may be clearer that way, when it would otherwise get drowned out in the noise of a town meeting like it has.

[bob g]

thanks for the input guys!

Sparweb

yes it would appear we have other avenues, one of which is a paper known as the "freepress" it is widely circulated and read around here, and apparently we have an "in" with a staff writer that might be available to do an investigative piece in which some of these concerns can be vetted.

anyone that knows me also knows i am pro wind, always have been, however...

just as i am against small wind manufactures that make crazy claims, such as the "honeywell" roof mounted unit most recently, i am also against large wind farms that are promoted via less than honest means.

particularly when it would appear that the desire is to make a quick buck, rather than to actually put these farms where they really can work and are of most use.

the population of this county is so low, that even one of the projected 118 units would be overkill, especially given the variability of wind.

it just seems to me that if this project was truly good and viable it would not have to be marketed by less than completely honest means.

just like small wind quacks, the big wind game has the same type of quacks, they just are maybe a bit better at it and move the decimal point over a few places.

yup, we ain't done yet!

bob g

[SparWeb]

Other things to watch out for:

When it comes to site and zoning issues, I personally believe that the "setback" is the largest factor in deciding how well the installation can be accepted.
Not only does the setback get the turbine away from sensitive or populated areas, but it also gets the turbine away from obstacles that interfere with the flow of wind. It's amazing how a supposedly economic argument will be attempted in the reduction of zoning setback, when the very act of siting the turbine too close to the building will hamper its ability to collect energy!  The more strongly this position is argued, the more I become convinced that the proponent is just "greenwashing" rather than trying to install an effective machine.

Moving shadows are very annoying.  When I stand in the shadow of my 8-foot WT, the flicker gets unpleasant very quickly.  My WT is located so that the shadow cannot fall on anything but a field and my driveway.  Some homeowners have not been so lucky, and in the past, people near wind farms have had shadows flickering in their windows.  Think winter and sunset, and the shadows can get veryyyyy long.  This is another good case for long setbacks between WT's and dwellings.

With a little legwork, you should be able to get a power curve for these turbines, and a wind speed breakdown for your area.  Since you mentioned a local microclimate, that may or may take some interpretation.  When you superimpose these on each other, you arrive at the energy harvested by the wind turbine in an average year.  Compare that with the figures the promoters are spreading around, and bear in mind that WT's get shut down for various reasons every year, so even your figure should be treated as an upper limit.  If you think that's going to give you difficulty, I'd be happy to help you with the spreadsheets.

[phil b]

When you think of turbine setback, don't forget about tornadoes. The most common are F 1-3. Noaa does have detailed info about them if you have time. You don't want blades and other things through your roof so they need to be a few miles away. 

You may have seen this Bob. It's a long read, but good.

http://www.thebackshed.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5491&PN=1

[CraigM]

Spoke with a few people at the GE plant last Friday. We found the proposed wind farm site but since this is still in the proposal stage GE has little input. I asked about the turbine spacing and was told it depends on the site and the discretion of the utility company.

[SparWeb]

Depends on who you ask.  Ask the right people and you get a lot more information than that.

A multi-million turbine is not delivered with hand-written installation instructions.  The product testing goes beyond sticking one's finger in the air.  The parts are designed on more than the back of an envelope.  Understandably, much of the detailed design and test data that GE develops is proprietary, other parts of it are released only by licence to the eventual owner/operators, but even GE knows they won't make a sale if they don't put some data in the public domain.  All Bob is looking for at this point is some sales-level information to get a handle on the size and performance of the machines.

I have personal experience on a number of occasions "doing the research" to dig deep into difficult technical problems.  Using the phone and a lot of reading (and today the internet makes this easier) I have been able to navigate my way through company phone directories and hierarchies to talk to enough people in high enough places (the so-called grey-beards) to really understand the issues in a proposed project.  I'm not talking about wind turbine projects, I do different stuff at work, but the process is entirely transferable to questions about a WT installation.

You get the door to open by being honest and forthright, but you often have to try several times because you can get caught on people that don't want to listen to you, or don't want to think.  Eventually, though, you can fall upon a person with a brain and if you can show them your concern and ability to grasp deeper answers, then they will probably help you go deeper into the problem.

Sometimes the "front door" is the way to go in, but it can also lead to voice-mail purgatory.  Websites that have a complicated "public" face often have other stuff stored on them that isn't well linked to the public pages, hard but not impossible to find, and not necessarily concealed behind login walls.  Google catalogs everything, but you have to use the "advanced search" to get there.

Approaching the problem laterally also helps.  Just because GE sells the turbine doesn't mean a GE employee built and tested every part.  Often there are universities and independent agencies involved.  If you exclude the "GE" part and focus on the individual "1.7 MW" and "100 meter" parts, you may pry up data or papers from researchers that relate to the machine without naming it directly.  Agencies like the NREL might also be publishing data about these machines, since their mandate is to promote alternative energy uses, after all.

[Mary B]

I did a little research on Kansas wind farms and anything close to the Flint Hills areas seem to get shot down and die. Your area may be close enough to get in on that... I am not familiar enough with KS to know.

At the next meeting get there early with a handout with your questions and pass them out as people enter. That way the crowd will know the concerns that should be asked. Things like who pays for land restoration when the project is past end of life? Who takes care of any hazardous waste during and after construction? Are there power lines in the area to support it or will they need to build a new high voltage line along with its ugly line of towers? Just ideas off the top of my head.

[bob g]

thanks again to everyone here!

another question if i might

does anyone here know of a corp known as

SUNWIND ENERGY GROUP Lllc
henderson nevada

this is the company the local developer claims to have the money and experience to develop and bring online this 200 mega watt wind farm

doing a google search of the company it would appear to me, they have no windfarms under management and only this proposed farm in so called development.

it also appears they are looking to raise 7.5 million bucks so that they can move to the next phase which is getting a power purchase agreement

from what i gather 1.7 mega watt wind generators are pretty darned expensive, one certainly isn't going to build very many for 7.5 million... so my thinking is they will still have to raise the better part of a half billion bucks to get the job done.

unless someone here is also a member of the AWEA group, and can tell me that this company is bonofide and has completed and brought online other windfarms, i am thinking something smells!

and i don't think it is my feet!

bob g

[SparWeb]

Ha, sounds like a start-up.  Nothing wrong with that in principle, businesses have to start somewhere.
Pretty ambitious for a first time at bat though.

The only way to make sense of it is to find out who the owners/management are.  They may have a track record and just getting a fresh start.  Won't know until you look, if it's a good track record or not.
Can't  get any real info out of their website - just blabber to fill up Facebook and various business blabber sites.

[Mary B]

Founded in 2009 so not a startup but no owner info I could find smells bad. I would run away from them. A legit company has a listing of management on web pages to build confidence, no listing is a confidence game to fleece people.

[southpaw]

Buy a defunct company for $.0001 a share, set up a website promoting wind energy, (could also be solar, renewable, or anything else green), issue press releases about how great you are, spend a couple of  hundred thousand on feasibility studies and promotion, offer shares at a buck or two, sell 10 or 20 million shares, run like hell. Happens regularly, completely legit, lots of self made millionaires. How the stock market is ruining the world.

Kurt

[bob g]

CraigM:

i have two more questions that maybe you can elaborate on

1. what is the lead time (approx) from order to delivery of a GE 1.7-100 , or maybe better asked if a developer was ready to go today and placed an order for 118 of these animals, about how long would it take to get them?  over what span of time?

just approx number in months would be helpful

2. it has been bandied about by the promoter that they are doing testing at multiple elevations so that they can fine tune the blade profiles for each turbine for each location of the development.

my thinking is the huge cost of the molds used to make up these rather large blades, would make it prohibitive to custom build different profiles for each location across rolling hills, valleys and ridge lines.

does GE alter profiles of these blades to accommodate changes in wind resources commonly found across a windfarms footprint?  it seems unlikely to me that they would produce more than maybe one or two profiles for a given machine in production?

any clarification would be helpful

bob g

[SparWeb]

1. years not months
Machines this size are not likely to be built in bulk and stored.  They would be built to order.  Especially considering the customer's site-specific factors to the installation.  Only one of which I am thinking about, below.  Anything more accurate than that is a guess from me, though.
Oh, and they process of erecting the turbines takes time, too.  Installing just one of these beasts requires a substantial civil engineering effort.  Attempting to raise several at once...

GE is a corporation so it has to publish annual reports.  Those are "public domain".  An annual report could contain info such as deliveries of WT's last year, if it pertains to the specific business unit that builds them.  Also, why wouldn't the media and public relations pages of their website have some press releases about orders, deliveries or installations of their products?


2. different tower heights, same blades
The adjustable pitch of the blades can be trimmed according to a power "profile" which may be the promoter's intended meaning.
In this size of turbine, the pitch of the blades can be altered not just as a "gang of 3" for a given wind speed but also each blade can be adjusted individually.  Considering the wind shear between 50 feet off the ground and 150 feet off the ground, the speed of the oncoming wind varies drastically during every revolution, therefore the pitch of each blade is continuously adjusted in a cycle for every revolution.  Determining the needed adjustment requires knowledge of the local terrain, its "roughness factor" hence an estimate of the wind shear in the area.  That sounds like what the promoter means. 
Details for the masses on www.windpower.org

[bob g]

i think the promoter actually meant differing blade profiles, he was pretty specific in his explanation

what i now believe is this, they cannot raise the capital for this project and are stalling as much as possible while the search up the food chain for a bigger fish to buy them out.

thanks for the input

you guys are much appreciated.

bob g

[Mary B]

I watched them install some wind turbines over a period of months. First step is cut in a road that can handle heavy equipment and cement trucks. Then they excavate and build the concrete bases using LOTS of rebar. Then the towers get trucked in in sections and a crane is brought in to raise them. On a calm day they can actually put a tower completely together if the crew is big enough. Then they start trucking in the actual wind turbine. The big ones I saw came in pieces and required multiple lifts to get them set in place with the last lift being the hub the blades mounted on. Then the blades are brought in and attached. All told the one outside my back door took a little over 2 months to put up. Sure on big projects they will have multiple crews putting up multiple units at the same time but it is still a slow process.