Author Topic: Bedini Motor (Read 13044 times)

Roamer195 · « **on:** September 19, 2004, 08:01:46 AM »

These diary threads are solely for the benifit of those that want to build "alternative" energy systems OR those that just want to dabble with something that's a bit out-of-the-ordinary.

I would greatly appreciate it if anyone has ANYTHING NEGATIVE to say, PLEASE REFRAIN FROM POSTING IT TO THESE DIARY THREADS. If you wish to attack the material, please do it in another message group like the "Rants" forum. I think that's probably what it's for anyway. If you possess even an ounce of human courtesy, you'll comply.

I don't wish to trouble the Admin (or me or anyone else) further by participating in any more attack threads.

I've seen some Bedini motor stuff posted so I'll tell you a couple of basic improvements that are needed in what I've seen built here.

For anyone deciding to try a Bedini model:

1. Use a very large flywheel mass and a very free-wheeling bearing on the axle. If a flick of the finger doesn't produce a nice long slow spin-time, it won't work right. The flywheel mass not only smooths out the motor, it is needed to absorb and hold angular momentum without losing any between pulses on the stator.

So, a basic "roller skate" wheel is not usually the best choice, since it has very little inertial mass in relation to it's bearing friction.

The transistor turns on by sensing the incoming magnetic field via a positive going voltage. So the transistor gain must be high enough to allow this small signal to turn it on. A 2N3055 is usually quite sufficient, although I've seen a couple of others mentioned that would probably work "ok". The 2N3055 is ubiquitous, cheap, and in most cases, sensitive enough to do a good job in that application.
There must be a sufficient number of windings on the stator core to induce a sufficient voltage to trigger the transistor base-emitter junction.

Some pics will be coming along shortly....

RobC · « **Reply #1 on:** September 19, 2004, 09:48:54 AM »

Great, looking forward to the pics and info. I want to build one even if it just for my own amusement. Probably right after my motor to alternater conversion is done which will be right after my move into my new double wide trailer is complete and all the @#%*! inspecters are gone.

iFred · « **Reply #2 on:** September 19, 2004, 11:19:16 PM »

In some of the first designs that Bedini built, I noticed the timing sequence was offset between charge and pulse to drive the mass. A shorter time span was used to drive the mass then to charge. Also I would personally use a lower current transistor, there are some very good medium size transistors that have good drain capability, if put on a heat sink they can be pushed a little harder, if you have some old TV circuit boards around, look at the transistors that drive the guns on the tv tube, there's a small circuit board their and the transistors are very good for this type of drive. Personally I always use multi-transistors to drive any coil rather then just one, you can parallel them up for greater current drain, also keeps them running cool. Optimal rpm's seems to be around 4000.

As far as bearings are concerned, you cannot beat the ones from a VCR head. They are designed to run at somewhat these high rpms but the quality of the bearings in a vcr head is exceptional! very low resistance, small and compact...Also it comes with two bearings and the entire assembly is already build to support it. Find some old VCR's, take them apart and look real close at the VCR head, easy to take apart and maintenance. Go to any TV shop and ask if they have any scraps they want to get rid of. Should cost nothing. Also there are tons of good components inside from transistors to small dc motors and complete power supplies (usually in good working order). Good for experimentation. I tend to lean towards picking up old tv's, vcr's and microwaves at any opertunity since the amount of parts inside is soooo good and cheap.

Good Luck!

Roamer195 · « **Reply #3 on:** September 20, 2004, 08:13:44 AM »

Yup. The offset of input and output pulses is to keep the front and back of the motor isolated (separate loops).

There are three separate loops demonstrated in the little girls science-fair model.

Input pulse, emf output pulse, and mechanical load (separate generator coil)

When a viscous load is applied, the rpms drop and the input power decreases until a balanced match is reached between input power and the load.

It runs more like an IC engine than an electric motor, in this respect.

The power handling and gain of the 2N3055 offers just about the best of both worlds for this type of pulsed switching action. Not to mention that it's pretty cheap.

iFred · « **Reply #4 on:** September 20, 2004, 08:52:21 AM »

This is some of the old old work...

iFred · « **Reply #5 on:** September 20, 2004, 09:49:39 AM »

I think John had the right idea by using gravity and a timing system. He always suggested that it was a timing issue. He stated that it was a question of "time to charge the capacitor", that everything had to be just right and that the timing was critical. He stated that if you rushed the timing to charge or it was to fast then it would not charge properly either.

I have build several versions of the device, I find that it is a question of the mass vs the timing. The mass must maintain the momentum and provide enough time to completely charge a capacitor during the interval when the motor is turned off and the mass is turned on for charge. I find the motor works hard if it's not just right. It seems to hot certain resonance points at various rpm's.

So what is the Bedini device? It seems to suggest it a converter - It uses gravity to provide time. During which time is most critical and based on mass. The larger the mass the more time the slower the device, the larger the charge time and capacity to charge.

However there is something that is not spoken of very much in regards to the Bedini motor and it is simply this insight... It is a "voltage multiplier" as well. But yet again we see timing is an issue.

In an open letter from Dr. Peter Lindemann to KeelyNet web site, the following was stated rather clearly. Which I believe best demonstrates what is the critical key that is missing and most people that built the devices missed. This letter was in regards to the latest device which he was patenting at the time.

1) When the machine is configured to function as a generator, it slows down

when delivering power, it charges the capacitor poorly, and it draws more

power from the source battery.

2) When the machine is configured to function as a transformer, again, it

slows down when delivering power, charges the capacitor to the voltage set

by the windings ratio, and draws more power from the source battery.

3) But, when both the transformer action and generator action are

suppressed, the motor torque is maximized, the speed is maximized, the input

power is minimized, and the capacitor charges quickly to voltages up to 30

times the input voltage on a one-to-one windings ratio.

So here we see that the Bedini motor is doing something to the timing and to the issues of turning off certain devices within it during the charge time to maximize the voltage/current transfer. Many people missed this point!

Roamer195 · « **Reply #6 on:** September 20, 2004, 11:02:16 AM »

Again, Yup.

With the simple N-pole motor, a heavy flywheel mass is needed to smooth out the input pulses for smooth storage of angular momentum.

The axle shaft can be used for powering mechanical loads, 1 unit input= 1 converted mechanical unit out + 1 unit cemf out the back end. This is another way the Ed Gray "split the positive", in a mechanical sense.

Adjusting the base resistance allows you to "tune" the motor. Low resistance means that the input current increases and the input pulse-width is wide. Raising that resistance allows you to find the tuning point where peak emf and minimum input current coincide. When you find that spot, the motor will be on the verge of run-away self-oscillation in the stator. This is the "magic" tuning point.

There is no specific value for the base resistor. It varies a bit depending on magnet strength and coil design. As a general rule, if it doesn't "kick over" then lower the resistance a bit more.

I use a 1k 1/2watt potentiometer set all the way up to 1k. Then I adjust it down until it's below the self-oscillation point. You can hear it on an AM radio.

Three critical rules to get the "effect":

Very weak magnets
Very heavy flywheel with low air friction
Very VERY freewheeling bearings

Chester · « **Reply #7 on:** September 20, 2004, 02:25:49 PM »

That is even better. Just take the top slice off the trigger wave. Battery is on less and power is maximized right at the point it needs to be. Plus with Bedini's iron core, you get the passive attraction to the center.

Now, why won't it work with stronger magnets, do you suppose?

Roamer195 · « **Reply #8 on:** September 21, 2004, 02:32:49 PM »

If you want to build it for producing torque to drive mechanical loads, strong magnets are what you want. This will give you maximum attraction and repulsion torque and an even 1:1 electrical input:output on the windings. For max efficiency you adjust to the minimum current-input position.

But, if you're trying to run it in it's resonant emf condition, you want weak magnets, a heavy flywheel and very free bearings. The only mechanical work being done, in this case, will be overcoming bearing friction and maintaining a steady rotation. This is where the best capacitor charging takes place and it's also the least power input.

I believe there are some zener/triac circuits posted somewhere on this board. That circuit will change it's dumping frequency as a capacitor charges faster. When you see the output pulses from the cap to the battery get faster, you KNOW there's more emf being delivered to the caps.

RobC · « **Reply #9 on:** September 21, 2004, 09:59:20 PM »

Can I use a heavy aluminum disk as the flywheel? I would like to machine holes in the side near the edge and epoxy the 1 1/2 x1/2 ferites I have into the holes. Any suggestions? Disk size hopefully around 12inches. How many magnets? RobC

Roamer195 · « **Reply #10 on:** September 22, 2004, 06:45:06 AM »

The flywheel can pretty much be anything that's non-magnetic.

Check out the proportions in the monopole motor patent pics and base the rotor diameter on THAT RATIO after measuring the pole dimensions on the magnets you're using.

In other words, it seems John gave us a good workable set of proportions to follow for a basic system. Start with those approximate dimensions and you should have something usable.

The other thing:

The Weaker the Magnets, the LOWER THE BASE TRIGGER VOLTAGE WILL BE. This means that the resistor MUST BE LOW RESISTANCE to allow the use of the weaker magnets. This also means less torque is used for signal generation.

I have one old coil that I made that will only work if I DON'T USE A RESISTOR on transistor base. That one is not very useful. But, it made the reason for the resistor pretty clear.

Roamer195 · « **Reply #11 on:** September 22, 2004, 06:51:00 AM »

Bedini pages updated again. Still more info.

http://www.icehouse.net/john34/

Make sure you check the links at the bottom too.

RobC · « **Reply #12 on:** September 22, 2004, 07:55:32 AM »

Thanks I know there are so many parts that have to be built just right and so many details that can be easily overlooked that you allmost need John himself looking over shoulder to get it right. I hope somebody here will get one of these working the way its supposed to and simplified to the point anybody can build it. Thanks again. RobC

Roamer195 · « **Reply #13 on:** September 22, 2004, 09:06:29 AM »

A few people have them working already.

Actually, if you just take it step-by-step, you won't miss any details.

Make a simple "backboard" stand to mount the rotor on two tiny bearings. Simple rotor is 5"diameter cut from 3/4" MDF board with a 1/4" center-drill hole-saw. Stick it on a 1/4" steel rod and use two 1/4"ID tool bearings from the hardware store. Get one of those "teflon precision oilers", NOT WD-40.
Wind a tri-filar coil from whatever magnet-wire you feel like using. #24 works just fine for a small device. Say, about 450 turns. Exact number isn't important since the "tuning" is done with a variable resistor and is completely analog.
Mount the coil so that the magnets pass close by the end of the core.

Then it's just a matter of wiring a few simple parts together....

You'll get it.

RobC · « **Reply #14 on:** September 22, 2004, 11:14:59 AM »

Doesn't sound too hard. Thanks RobC

methernitha · « **Reply #15 on:** September 22, 2004, 02:59:27 PM »

Hi Roamer and all ,

I've Just built a Bedini motor and have been running it over the last 2 weeks. I have faithfully reproduced the Bedini patent and followed the postings on this great site. Its made from engineered plexiglass (perspex). It seems to run well at approx 600-700 RPM but its not charging the batteries faster than the supply is draining. I am getting voltage pulses of between 20-30 volts.

The voltage slowly rises on the charging battery but when the battery voltage charges back up to 12 volts it is not properly charged ie there is no real usable power in there.

My question is how does this machine charge batteries with real usable power and how can I adapt the motor to do this?

I am uncertain of the air gap size which is adjustable and seems to work best at about 5mm. The only varibles I have are the air gap and the timing on the voltage spikes.

Is it necessary to adapt the machine to use more magnets on the disc? I've got 3 magnets of 20mm diameter,12mm thick spaced 120 degrees around the main fly wheel.

Will post images in next days.

Any suggestions will be a massive help,

With thanks, Methernitha

Chester · « **Reply #16 on:** September 22, 2004, 05:59:34 PM »

Fresh batteries and fresh battery holder. Finally figured out that my old holder was barely functioning; not making good contact.

It cranked right up to 862 rpm on 8 coils and 5.29 volts. Didn't let it run long, but got the following measurement:

This is what I think it must look like overlaying the trigger and power circuit. You can see the voltage begin in the pulse, then being depressed by the inductive back flow. When the peak is past and the voltage begins to decline the cemf starts and spikes right at the end. On my scope it goes off the page. More than 20 volts!

Now the width of the pulse (in red) is 2.5 ms. The width of the positive part of the trigger wave (in blue) is 4.35 ms. Interesting thing is, I bought the 2n3055 from radio shack and the specs on the package says the maximum operating frequency of the transistor is 2.5 ms. Question: do I need a faster transistor to goose it more?

Chester · « **Reply #17 on:** September 22, 2004, 06:11:59 PM »

Scratch that!

Operating frequency is 2.5 MHz. I guess that means it can switch in micro seconds if I need it to. Dang! This transistor is faster than greased pork chops!!

Roamer195 · « **Reply #18 on:** September 23, 2004, 07:11:55 AM »

What kind of magnets are you using?

How much resistance on the transistor base?

How big is your capacitor?

And, which transistor are you using?

methernitha · « **Reply #19 on:** September 24, 2004, 07:47:48 AM »

Magnets: 3 slots on wheel, 2 magnets glued together (each one 6mm x 20 mm diameter) in each. They are not neo but normal ceramic. 100ohm resistor and 10K 15 turn variable pot. Capacitor 470uf, 600V.

Transisitor BD243C

Images coming soon!

Methernitha

methernitha · « **Reply #20 on:** September 24, 2004, 01:03:02 PM »

methernitha · « **Reply #21 on:** September 24, 2004, 02:04:57 PM »

methernitha · « **Reply #22 on:** September 24, 2004, 02:10:39 PM »

These images weren't supposed to be this big! But I think its possible to figure out what's what. The magnets aren't visible as its photographed whilst running.
Any advice/comments to my earlier posting gratefully received,
Methernitha.

Roamer195 · « **Reply #23 on:** September 24, 2004, 02:56:55 PM »

Ok, if you have a scope you can see what's happening. If not, you'll have to wing it.

I can't tell if your stator gap is adjustable or not from looking at the pics.

The closer the stator is to the magnet, the stronger the field incursion on the stator core.

This means that you must input CURRENT to overcome and reverse the magnetic flux from the PM on the rotor.

Get yourself a full-sized 1k pot instead of that 15 turn thingy. They usually pop after you crank things around a bit. Nothing but trouble.

If you set an AM radio next to the motor you'll hear each "tick" as the magnets go by the stator. If you hear a short tone burst that's more like a "brrp", that means you have too much resistance. You should hear 1 plink for each magnet passing.

The wider the gap, the less field interaction and less resistance needed on the base to get it firing.

I usually start out by putting about 50 ohms on the base and I hold the stator in my hand, then give the wheel a good hard spin, bringing the stator toward the wheel very slowly until I just hear the transistor firing. That is where I set the distance for the stator mount initially. Then make fine gap adjustments to JUST get it triggering smoothly.

Once it's running, slowly increase the pot resistance until it JUST starts to double-fire on each pass of the magnets. If you have an analog ammeter on the input, you'll see that this is the minimum INPUT current setting JUST BEFORE it breaks over into self-oscillations. You'll see the current input jump way up if it starts self-oscillating and the wheel will slow down and probably stop.

Also put an analog volt-meter across the discharge capacitor and watch what it does when you tune the front end to minimum input.

As for battery charging, you need to be patient. You already know how much power the motor is using if you know the amperage on the front end. An analog meter will "float" and actually give you an OVERestimate of what it's using.

If you see it pushing the voltage up on the receiving battery, just leave it alone and let it run. Walk away. The battery needs to acclimate itself to this type of charging. Don't be impatient. This was the toughest part for me.

Roamer195 · « **Reply #24 on:** September 24, 2004, 02:58:27 PM »

THAT is a work of art.

RobC · « **Reply #25 on:** September 24, 2004, 06:38:38 PM »

I agree with Roamer that is one nice looking motor. I hope you and Roamer can get it working right. Keep us posted RobC

iFred · « **Reply #26 on:** September 24, 2004, 10:14:12 PM »

I am not sure where I seen it, but I beleive someone posted that fact that the battery was charged to full voltage, but the problem was that the battery did'nt last. I beleive the problem was related to current. You can have significant voltages in the range of 20-30 voltsDC and charge a battery, but the real question of power is, what is the current going into the battery during the recharge. Anyone got an awnser on this??

Roamer195 · « **Reply #27 on:** September 25, 2004, 05:54:46 AM »

If you pull a vacuum over a container of water, the water soaks up heat from it's local environment and begins to "boil". The USER work required to pull that vacuum is, at the most, about 14psi on the piston. The bulk of the vaporization energy comes from the space surrounding the water. This is the basis for heatpump theory. The amount of heat collected VS the work to pull the vacuum determines the C.O.P.

If you think of the Bedini system as an analog of a heatpump, then I becomes more clear what's going on; pulling a VOLTAGE VACUUM over the battery(my interpretation).

This is a method of producing a high floating voltage with a small current input. Hold the voltage high on the receiving battery, then wait as long as it takes for the battery to fully charge. The batteries don't usually "like" this much at first, improving over time. The biggest thing is that you SHOULD SEE the VOLTAGE hopping up on the receiving battery when you start the machine. This doesn't mean that the battery is INSTANTLY CHARGED, it just means you're holding the voltage high.

Once built and tuned, the motor/gen has a known, fixed power input every time you fire it up. This means that while you're "teaching" the batteries to accept this type of charging, you can run it from any 12v source you want to.

If the battery you're charging cannot be pulled up above 12.5v in a fairly short time by your charger, the charger isn't big enough for the batteries you're trying to use AND your battery is probably sulfating. In this case, you'll need to add more windings around the wheel.

Let's say you're stator design draws 80ma a peak tuning. Adding a few more identical windings will simply multiply that input requirement and also multiply the emf collected in the capacitor. This will give you increased capability for POPPING the voltage up on larger batteries.

You have to GIVE to GET in any system, even energy-collection systems. The BAIT is very small compared to the FISH that jumps on the hook.

Set a 1amp input Bedini motor next to a 1amp input commercial charger and then you'll see why it's different.

The small motor is a MODEL to learn from. But, if you build it correctly, there is plenty of room for expansion just by adding more stators and driver circuits.

If you look at the various machine pictures on Bedini's website, you'll see that there's NO FIXED COIL SPECIFICATIONS. You can build it with a variety of coil charactieristics. But, you MUST understand the process before you'll be able to modify anything with any success. Without that understanding, you'll head off into the the dark when you make changes.

Roamer195 · « **Reply #28 on:** September 25, 2004, 06:06:54 AM »

Here's some text taken from http://www.icehouse.net/john34/intro.html

As for the Radiant work their only three patents by Tesla which discusses anything, and no math. The only thing we have to use at this time is VQ without the I (current) but it should be Vr =Q ( voltage from the split Radiant = Charge) The only other factor is TIME to get the Vr. If a long time is required to collect charge in this split then C (capacitor) should be very small so that the highest V (voltage) is obtained. If the Vr is very quick in splitting this magnetic moment then C can be very big. Also frequency of this magnetic moment is very important. You must release the Radiant voltage into a radiant current de-void of any electrons. So what is charging the batteries in My system is pure Radiant Current. This means that since their is no electrons to pile up on the Ions of the battery nothing can move, this forces the Ions to change their state and they move on their own, this is nothing more then a impedance shift, if you have a low impedance in the battery you have real power, if you have high impedance in the battery you have nothing. Nature takes time to move at her own rate, so the battery may take a long time to charge but charge it will with a different form of energy. This brings me to a different point, That all that is driving the switching solid state wise is a difference in potential across the battery inverted. This then means that the whole flow theory is out the window, meaning that the semiconductors are working on potential charge de-void of electrons so their is no heat generated in the semiconductor. As for the battery it fill's in it's own electrons. I must say that Tesla was right.

John

methernitha · « **Reply #29 on:** September 25, 2004, 02:49:53 PM »

Thanks for that. Don't have a scope yet but I feel ebay calling. Have been using am radio to hear transistor switching but now I know better what to listen for. Will try callibrating the coil and get back to you.

Is there an ideal timing for the pulses? At approx 650 rpm mine switches cap approx every 2 secs at around 40 volts which then goes down to approx 30 volts. Its built as far as I know to the scale of the Bedini stuff.

I read voltage pulses on cap to battery should be around 20 volts - does that mean the top end of the spike or bottom end? I can bring this down in 2 ways: first add another capacitor (same value) which lowers it by approx 5 volts; second I can increase timing wheel switching speed. You would think faster pulses would decrease battery charge time but I'm not sure if its the case.

Any thoughts? Methernitha

Chester · « **Reply #30 on:** September 25, 2004, 03:57:03 PM »

Very nice looking machine. Well done! Hats off.

I'd try changing the ratio on the pulley system to get more discharges. 1:1 might even work.

This would also give a good reason to make another beautiful pulley.

iFred · « **Reply #31 on:** September 25, 2004, 08:41:40 PM »

Roamer195

HOLY SH@& NOW I GET IT!!!!! THANK YOU for the explanations. Finally I get it.

I have been scratching my head for years trying to rap around what it was that John was saying, It just didn't make any sense. The way you just described it hit home. Now I get it. Which design would you say I should then start with the simplest or something more advanced to see this effect... I have built a couple in the past but since scraped since none worked.

So please continue. Stay tuned to this post and check it every couple of days or so, I will have some questions coming up and you seem to be the one with the answers. I want to get one of these working. Thanks!

iFred · « **Reply #32 on:** September 25, 2004, 10:54:55 PM »

Roamer195, do you know what the conversion process is that is converting the "vacuum energy or radient energy" to electrical energy???

In other words what is converting one type of energy or space to another??

TNKS!

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Author Topic: Bedini Motor (Read 13044 times)