Author Topic: Optical Illusion  (Read 1638 times)

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MelTx

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Optical Illusion
« on: February 22, 2005, 01:02:07 AM »


 I did have 4 blades on this genny now there are 9 blades.I passed by an old water pumper this morning and that did it.The old pumper looked like it was going sixty so I just had to try the multi blade thing.But they dont really go faster it just looks that way.Before change 14-22 volts into batts after 8-12 volts.Oh well, maybe I can wire delta and go for amps and power.  MelTx







« Last Edit: February 22, 2005, 01:02:07 AM by (unknown) »

domwild

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Re: Optical Illusion
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2005, 07:12:46 PM »
Hi,

Great photos! My setup looks similar, a flange with flat bars holding four PVC props with a Jerry alu sandwich.


Are these alu blades?


Looking at the formulae, the power is related to the square of the radius and the RPMs drop linearly with the radius. The blade chord goes up with the square of the radius at the tip and reduces with the number of blades.


It seems to me, that increasing the number of blades does not increase the power. The formulae seem to bear that out.

*

« Last Edit: February 21, 2005, 07:12:46 PM by domwild »

domwild

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Re: Optical Illusion
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2005, 07:16:37 PM »
MelTx,


Another question: Rounded tip vs. square tip? What made you chose a rounded tip?

« Last Edit: February 21, 2005, 07:16:37 PM by domwild »

newguy

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Re: Optical Illusion
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2005, 08:40:40 PM »
dont when you add more blades you increas the torque and decrease the speed but fewer blades increase speed but dercrease torque. i think that is why water pumpers need more blades because they have to pump the water they need torque and i guess more rpm in a wind generator will increas the wattage
« Last Edit: February 21, 2005, 08:40:40 PM by newguy »

MelTx

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Re: Optical Illusion
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2005, 08:45:19 PM »


 Domwild    Thank you for your interest. The blades are made of plastic barrels split up the side.They are 5 foot across.   I know what a radius & dia & circumfrence of a circle are.The other things seem like greek,and just give me a headache.I tried teaching myself calculus once and had to be looked after for 6 months.....But realy I am just a shade tree gen maker...I just try something if it works ok, if not oh well..    See Ya             MelTx
« Last Edit: February 21, 2005, 08:45:19 PM by MelTx »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Optical Illusion
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2005, 06:30:51 PM »
Here's an approximation of what is happening:


The blade slows down a slug of air (mostly on the upwind side of the blade, although its influence also slows some on the downwind side - especially if it's a good airfoil shape).  The wider the blade, the longer the slug of air it slows down.


The gap between blades lets the slowed-down slug of air go through the mill before the next blade's influence arrives at that position.


If you have the blades sized so the next blade's influence just arrives as the last of the slowed-down slug of air gets clear, you're collecting about all the power you can from the cross-section of the wind that goes through your blades.


To do this, the fewer the blades the wider each blade has to be (although a good airfoil shape lengtens the slug of slowed air and thus acts like the blade is wider).


If you have blades that are too narrow for the number of blades, some of the unslowed air gets through the gap before the next blade (or its leading influence) arrives.  So some air gets through without being slowed down.  Adding more blades improves your power output, up to the point where you're slowing all the air.  After that, adding more blades gets you no more power - because part of the air each blade catches is already slowed down.


More blades lets you get higer torque and lower speed.  This is great for a patent windmill with a reciprocating pump, because you want to lift a bunch of weight.  But it's mainly done because patent windmills were designed by guess and by gosh and by cut and try, before aerodynamics was well developed.  (Also because sheet metal is cheap.)


But for generation you want high speed.  The faster your magnets move, the more power you get from a given amount of magnet.  This means a faster shaft lets you buy fewer permanent magnets (or burn less excitation power for electromagnets) to get a given amount of output power.


Therefore a wind generator will tend to have either few broad blades or a bunch of narrow ones.  If you're home-brewing it typically costs you more effort to do a bunch of blades than to do a few wider ones, and a low-count turbine is about as efficient as a high-count.  So there's little point in going to high blade count (unless you have an easy way to make a lot of narrow blades that are individually not very strong, which doesn't scale up to making a few, broad, strong blades).


Two blades have a problem with vibration on yaw, so you want at least three.  Typically you'll see three or five carved airfoil blades, or a bunch of some inexpensive and easy-to-fab curved-sheet approximation (like your cut-barrel blades).

« Last Edit: February 22, 2005, 06:30:51 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

nothing to lose

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Re: Optical Illusion
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2005, 12:57:39 AM »
I see your blades are straight sided on both sides. Is that working well for like 2,3,4 blade setups?

 What I did with my barrels blades I had running was use a wider root about like yours and about half way out I cut the trailing edge down to taper to about 2" I think at the tip.


Right now I have it taken down and it's at the rock house not here. I hope to put it up this weekend over there. I have tried many blades I have made. Hadn't tried just a straight blade on both leading and trailing edges like that yet though.


Time to cut up another barrel :)

« Last Edit: February 23, 2005, 12:57:39 AM by nothing to lose »

domwild

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Re: Optical Illusion
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2005, 03:43:00 AM »
Keep up the good work and remember:


"Reality is really an illusion caused by a lack of drugs!"

« Last Edit: February 23, 2005, 03:43:00 AM by domwild »

MelTx

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Re: Optical Illusion
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2005, 08:09:17 AM »


  Nothingtolose  Yes I did try the taper down style on the plastic blades.They did not work as well as the round edge ones....The wind quit blowing so I am not sure yet about the 9 blade model but it looks like there is less speed so there is less voltage.Also tring different wiring....Or I could steal my dadies, cue and make a living out of playing poooool.   SoLongForNow           MelTx
« Last Edit: February 23, 2005, 08:09:17 AM by MelTx »

nothing to lose

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Re: Optical Illusion
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2005, 02:59:44 PM »
Hmmm, I hadn't tried just straight sided blades yet, I think I will.


Got busy and haven't had time for the mill for a few days. Have it sitting at the other house on the porch doing nothing. Think I will cut a barrel tonight for more new blades, thanks.

« Last Edit: February 28, 2005, 02:59:44 PM by nothing to lose »