Author Topic: Intemperate thoughts on Net Metering  (Read 2176 times)

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wdyasq

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Intemperate thoughts on Net Metering
« on: June 22, 2005, 12:49:53 PM »
Net metering is claimed to be the great savior of renewable energy.  One gets a separate meter, makes electricity and is billed for the difference.  It sounds wonderful.


My views are a tempered by the reality of dealing with several electricity supply companies, the government and reality. Like many laws, the laws regarding producing your own energy and making it available to others are normally complex.  The 'public safety' must be protected, the power must be compatible with the existing power and the electric company's service structure employees must be protected from stray shocks.  


These requirements mandate a grid-tie inverter, separate meter, a power-panel interlock, insurance requirements and a battery bank if one expects to have power when the grid goes down.  One should consider the requirements individually, and as a group, before deciding to have the local electrical supply company as a partner in power.


The grid-tie inverter can be represented buy the $ symbol.  These things are more expensive than standard inverters.  They will also have  a limited lifespan.  The cost of these seem to be between $700 and $1000 a kW.  This is a non-productive cost and must be deducted from power output to have an honest assessment of the system.  For the purposes of this discussion I will use $20 or, about 1% of the cost of the inverter per month and we will believe the  sales folks claims they will last forever (sure). We shall also assume one can live on a 2kW energy budget (not likely).


In the states I have checked the separate power meter was $15- $20 a month.  As it was illegal to connect without this feature, the cost must be included in any discussion of legal connections.  We will use $15.


One would need to put in that little special power panel if this is to be an honest discussion.  It will be put in by a certified electrician and we will considerate ourselves fortunate if costs less than $500.  1% of that cost will be $5 added to our little reality fund a month to service that  'debt' or replace that amount we might have had invested.  Either way, it is a cost to the system.


As one would 'normally' have insurance and if one is truly off-grid these two items will be ignored for simplicity.  It's not fair, but to prove my intemperate thoughts, not necessary either.


Our fixed costs are now $40 a month to play with our wonderful electricity company and we must now produce to offset those costs.  Rates here are $0.14kWh.  In Ohio, they were $0.08kWh.  If one uses $0.10 a kWh, they would need to produce 400kWh a month of power offset costs.  It will be prudent to see what kind of system that will take to produce that.


Our figures say we will need 13kWh production a day to 'break even', before we start saving any money. Figuring 8 hours of full output  a day, and ignoring we didn't put in a MPPT and a solar tracker in our figures, we will need about  1600 watts of solar panels.  In reality, it will probably take closer to 2kW.  But, this is play and pixels, not writing a check to the various vampires of one's monetary resources.  We need  about $6,400 to achieve this kind of  output.  Oh, installation is extra.


Personally, I would rather spend the monies on things other than to enrich my local electric supply company.  It appears to me they all drive cars of more recent vintage than mine, they are all provided health insurance and retirement benefits, the buildings seem to be built with little expense spared and all their tools and toys, from lineman's tools to computers, seem to be better than I can afford.


Ron

« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 12:49:53 PM by (unknown) »
"I like the Honey, but kill the bees"

ghurd

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Re: Intemperate thoughts on Net Metering
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2005, 07:47:05 AM »
I did a similar calculation for the 100W mini grid tie inverter.

It was almost popular for a while with "unofficial" grid connections.

Just recovering the cost of ONLY the inverter was 38 years,

no other costs included, if I remember right.

G-
« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 07:47:05 AM by ghurd »
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TomW

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Grid Tie is the wrong term
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2005, 08:21:38 AM »
It should be "GRID BONDAGE".


I think you covered it pretty well.


Lots of marginal and some plain wrong advice flows through this board. Deciding which is which can be daunting.


Cheers.


TomW

« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 08:21:38 AM by TomW »

pyrocasto

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Re: Intemperate thoughts on Net Metering
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2005, 09:06:22 AM »
Grid ty is teh best, and you are making lyes!!!


But on a real note, unless more than 1kw an hour constantly, you wont even pay for the monthly extra bills.

« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 09:06:22 AM by pyrocasto »

georgeodjungle

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Re: Intemperate thoughts on Net Metering
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2005, 09:10:59 AM »
your math is wrong for pa. & ca.

the power co. buys it back @ 1/2 price !!!

plus a handful of other fees.

but no batteries.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 09:10:59 AM by georgeodjungle »

wdyasq

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Re: Intemperate thoughts on Net Metering
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2005, 09:29:28 AM »
I never was good at the combination of math, the truth and politics.


PS: 'Buyback' is $0.02 in Texas - but, you get your consumption taken off your 'surplus' first... Such a deal!


Ron

« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 09:29:28 AM by wdyasq »
"I like the Honey, but kill the bees"

jimovonz

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Re: Intemperate thoughts on Net Metering
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2005, 02:11:06 PM »
The fixed charges here (New Zealand) are a real obsticle to conservation due to their diluting effect. We pay around $NZ35 per month in fixed charges. My total bill is around $NZ55-60 per month (~5kwh/day). Any further effort to reduce my consumption has diminishing returns... The sooner I can get off grid the better!

We are currently developing a some land into 34 rural 'lifestyle' type blocks with an eco/conservation focus. People will be encouraged to utilise alternative/renewable engergy - of course we will be leading by example. One way I am looking in to way to minimise the effect of these fixed charges  (and encourage generation/conservation) is to buy the electricity wholesale through a central meter as a body corporate and charge on a purely pro-rata basis. Household meters would still be required, but could be chosen for their net metering capability - obviously we would not have diferential rates and hence only one meter per house would be required. To date we have had trouble getting information out of the authorities on exactly what is required to enable this. Unfortunately we are at a stage where we need to complete the reticulation of services to move on so unless I can track down the correct people to talk to we may miss out if any special infrastructure is required to enable this.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 02:11:06 PM by jimovonz »

zubbly

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Re: Grid Tie is the wrong term
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2005, 02:53:31 PM »
BONDAGE!    OOoooo, i like that.  :)


zubbly

« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 02:53:31 PM by zubbly »

drdongle

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Re: Grid Tie is the wrong term
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2005, 05:09:40 PM »
Beat me, beat me, make me feel cheap, make me pay utility bills.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 05:09:40 PM by drdongle »

jomoco

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Re: Intemperate thoughts on Net Metering
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2005, 05:11:04 PM »
The important thing to keep in mind is that it can be done. The trick is of course being able to feed enough power to the grid to make it pay at a wholesale reimbursement rate. So unless you can generate big time power on a fairly consistent basis it doesn't pencil out. That said, it does however give us something to shoot for. No not politicians and vested interests! New and better RE technology I hope!


jomoco

« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 05:11:04 PM by jomoco »

niffa

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Re: Intemperate thoughts on Net Metering
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2005, 10:57:30 PM »
A peeping tom come out of the bushes.

I am looking at net metering because battery banks are just large amounts of energy looking for a place to go. I have seen what happens if all that fault current is let loose.

My plan is to set up my system to provide most of my electrical needs. By continuing to draw from the grid I can justify the utility charges. Because I will usualy be using my wind energy as it is generated the utility will not get a cut. If I am generating more than I can use anything the utility pays me is beter than running a dump load don't you think?

I would like to hear from anyone using grid-tie system.


Cheers

Phil    

« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 10:57:30 PM by niffa »

pyrocasto

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Re: Intemperate thoughts on Net Metering
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2005, 11:51:05 PM »
"If I am generating more than I can use anything the utility pays me is beter than running a dump load don't you think?"


If it costs you extra money than I would say no. Since the price of the inverter is so extreme, you will not actually be making money off of it, even though you may get a check each month.And no, with that dump load, I can give myself a few more of life's luxuries that I dont need, but are nice to have. Heated garage could be one...

« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 11:51:05 PM by pyrocasto »

joelhacker

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Re: Intemperate thoughts on Net Metering
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2005, 01:31:33 PM »
Very good point...I would like to point out that lowering the total

energy usage within your own home (increased efficiency and more

conversion) pays much more than all the money invested in creating

your own power, selling it extremely cheaply to the power company,

and trying to maintain a marriage explaining to the wife why all

those batteries in the basement only generate $15 per month.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2005, 01:31:33 PM by joelhacker »

joelhacker

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Re: Intemperate thoughts on Net Metering
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2005, 01:34:29 PM »
Depending upon where you life, most dump loads that I know of are in the form of heat.

I would rather heat my home during the winter time with excess dump load and save on the natural gas than generate $0.02 per KWH to the electric company.


Summer is always another matter, but don't forget the huge load of the AC systems :-)

« Last Edit: June 23, 2005, 01:34:29 PM by joelhacker »

pyrocasto

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Re: Intemperate thoughts on Net Metering
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2005, 11:13:36 PM »
You could dump it into peltiers in the summer, since you can power those on any amount of power just about.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2005, 11:13:36 PM by pyrocasto »