Buckets for Savonius

[Norm]

   Just like plastic pipe for HAWTs I think the

best thing for VAWTs are 5gal. buckets.

   Altho I have access to free buckets I ran

across some real colorful buckets for $2.85 in

Walmarts but then again maybe the color would

fade...best stick to white....

   (little_erma_004.avi electrondady1 files)

  like 'little erma' is 2 units' and (quoting

him)

if i can get enough torque from the windmill it should see 600 rpm.I intend to stack three bladed windmill "units" untill it does have enough torque!!

   Some day a nice template so I can cut those

buckets into 3 exact pieces and a mold with 3

arms so I can cast aluminum or fiberglas pieces

for the ends.......Dream on Huh?

                 ( :>) Norm.

[Bruce S]

Hello Norm;

Good idea!

    I think if you use the mold technique then you could use some of the liquid plastic (rosin?) that people are using to copy big flower pot urns.

This way you could have the buckets, ribbing for strength & the center all molded at the same time. I think this would help in mass producing.

Bruce S

[electrondady1]

hello norm. how you doing? thanks for the cheerfull words last week. it's very gratifying to think you like "little erma". it's super easy to form the vanes. invert the bucket on a flat floor. measure the dia. of the bottom . multiply by 3.14 to get the circumference. divide by 3.  i transfered that dimention onto a piece of paper, and used it to mark the bucket in three equal parts. draw three lines on the bottom to connect those three points. i  used a carpenters square to get the vertical lines.  i used a jig saw to cut it up into three sections. it takes longer to explane than it does to make it. i used three pieces of angle iron welded to a central hub to form the mounting arms. a disk would be easyer but around here, in winter, you can get two feet of snow overnight which would pile up on the disks and mess up the performance.

good luck to you!

shawn

[electrondady1]

for me, the struggle has been to build a generator that is a good match to the torque/rpm range of the mill. the original generator worked , but poorly. ive been studying geni design on this site and experimenting for the last year or so.

i want to go direct drive and large diameter(about 22") if i can. the simplicity and silent running!!thats what i like. if i can't get that to work ,then i will reluctantly overdrive the geni and stack up the vanes.

[Norm]

  Did you ever take a real good look at Ed's

(windstuffnow)little educational kit?...

 You could scale it up...really neat how he

really only has basically 3 coils isn't it?

once you figure how long the wire has to be

for each coil.

  I've just had idea for the 'little erma' type

I'll use threaded rod instead of angle iron,

spokes on a hub...holes thru the corners of the

blade special shaped washers to match the contour

of the blades where the rod is fastened.

   Later on fiberglass or aluminum hubs with

aluminum rods, but for now what I got handy.

               ( :>) Norm.

[Norm]

    Right, Bruce S ,that technique of liquid plastic

 would work....I could even make kits where the

customers just had to provide their own buckets

aye!

               ( :>) Norm.

[electrondady1]

norm, if it works,  go for it . ed's projects are inspirational to me. i follow his work closely.  

if you use a rod to mount the vanes you might need  one at the top and one at the bottom, otherwise, the wind will try to twist the vane around the rod.

[Norm]

if you use a rod to mount the vanes you might need  one at the top and one at the bottom, otherwise...

 Yep...a brace from the center of the blade to

the edge of the hub for rods to the vanes above it.

                ( :>) Norm.

[Bruce S]

I have a question.

After looking at Little erma and ed's kit; I was wondering if it would be better to have multiple small sized units with their own outputs summed together or if it's just better to have a larger sized unit.

Here's my thought.

Since I can't put up large units in my yard I was thinking about building several smaller units and stack a few them on a single pole.

Staying with the 2:1 rule I can build a couple units test them out and use a single central mount as they are completed.

 I know that makes things more compilcated but...

Or is it just that much better to build a single unit.

I haven't yet gotten any of those N38 mags that seem to be the best for output, but I do have about a hundred of the cermaic ones N5s I think.

I have done any calcs yet on wire size or anything, just trying to get some ideas for ways to have a bunch of these things out catching the wind.

One more question:

Is it an absoulte that round buckets need to be used? I don't have any, but do have rectangle ones, (We have cats) so the buckets are a side benifit.

I can make use of the rectangle ones to make something similar to ed's

Thanks for any help;

Bruce S

[electrondady1]

bruce , i think small is beautiful.it was my original vision to have one bucket per geni and have about 30 genies along my fence line. the bottom one was easy to add and gave two times as much torque. it enables the mechanism to turn in the slightest breeze.two counter rotating  mills close together may workwell as the pressure wave running in front of one should help power the one next to it. not shure about that.

you can't see it from the video but the pole i used for little erma had another mouning bracket on the left.

i have yet to buy any neo mags. all my experiments have been with ceramic mags harvested from old sterio speakers and cut into pieces with a wet tile saw. i also have over a hundred little pieces which i keep laying out in different configurations. i'm beginning to understand what works and what doesn't so i will soon part with my money and purchase those very powerfull golden mags.

not shure about square buckets. if you cut them the right way they might work fine.

[Norm]

I'm pretty sure square buckets would work just as

good like a round bucket looks like this ( of

course and a square bucket   like this <

right ?  ...not like this [ .

              ( :>) Norm.

[CG]

I don't think I have seen a mention for the Windside turbine (www.windside.com) on this site so far. Would be too difficult to make d DIY windside turbine? The company claims it to be an improvement on the standard Savonius, and it must be the most successful commercially made Savonius type turbine made.

[electrondady1]

those windside tubines are great! wish i had one. those curved vanes would be hard to make without a very sophisticated mold.

[electrondady1]

norm, once you get your mill constructed what sort of geni will you use?

[Norm]

  First I will say that electrondady's 'little

erma' is typical of the best, simplest, economical

 homebrew design

of a savonius...a blade is offered

to the direction of the wind every 60 degrees...

eqivalent in smoothness to a 12 cylinder engine.

  What might seem efficient in a spiral design...

isn't, part of the winds force is trying to lift

it off its base.

  The spiral safety feature could be simply a

couple of foam pool 'noodles' wrapped around the

bottom 6 ft of a savonius... if it were to be

built down on the ground.

  Lastly what really should have been first....

is the fact that you can go to the search part

of this board and simply type in windside

....look what happens!

                Have Fun!

                   ( :>) Norm.

[Norm]

  For it's first trial run I'm hoping it will

have enough torque at 5mph wind to directly

drive that gear box end of the 'stepper'? motor

that Bruce S gave me ....which will charge a

SLA 4amp/hr battery....so that's about it for

now  that little gear box is a 100 to 1 ratio

60. rpm is spinning the motor at 6000rpm and about
    
15. -20 volts DC open voltage...quite a gutsy little thing!
    
    

                     ( :>) Norm.

[windstuffnow]

  Thinking of size and power of these little units, if you build alot of little ones they will all add up.  If your getting a half amp from each then you'd get 5 amps from 10 of them.  If you think of it in a little different way... how about using a fence line of say 20 ft long and build a savonius of 2ft in diameter and lay it on its side.  Add sections to it until it covers the entire 20ft ( 2 x 20 = 40 sq ft).  It would be difficult to build a stand up unit 20 ft tall but building a Horizontal Vertical could be quite benificial.  For instance if the ends, bottom pointing south and top pointing north you'll get NW all the way around to SW winds as well as NE to SE winds.   This would work spanning roof peaks as well.   Small long units laying sideways are easier to hide then tall units.   If their built on garages or workshop peaks they also benifit the from the shroud effect where the wind is actually being "funneled" into the turbines.  Still not as efficient as the HAWT and has to run in the lower wind range but far easier to build with available materials.

  One of those odd ideas I've been toying with.   I have several barns where the peaks are pointing in different directions.  NS and EW.  One barn is 140 ft long where others vary in size from 100 to 60 ft.   If all the peaks were covered with a 2 ft diameter unit I'd have about 1100 sq ft of wind turbines in various positions.  This would amount to around 1kw in a 10mph wind. or 9kw in a 20 mph wind.

  If you had a 20 ft fence line that had fair exposure and a 2ft diameter turbine spanning the fence top you'd have about 40 watts in a 10mph wind or around 325 watts in a 20mph wind. The output would actually be enhanced by mounting it to the peak because you'd be collecting from a larger area ( similar to a difuser).  For instance if your roof is 50 ft accross and say 20 ft to the overhang thats 1000 sq ft of area that is being funneled to the turbine.  If the roof is say 6ft tall from the overhang to the highest point your collecting from an area of around 300 sq ft.  Making the little turbine BIG!  This will increase the amount of air flowing around the turbine as will as increase the wind speed it sees.  Using a small diameter turbine will maintain rpms that makes it easy to build alternators that work well with them.

  Just something to inspire some brain cell sparks... is there potential to a Horizontal mounted vertical?

.

[electrondady1]

gee norm ,feels like i got an A+ on my science project. when your mill gets  up to 120+ rpm , you should really see some sparks.

 ed, a horizontal vertical, thats's a unique idea. using the roof for a funnel, now we're getting somewere. i think these various forms of r.e. will begin to affect archetecture in a big way soon.

bruce , were can i get one of those gear drive stepper motors ? whats it out of?

[Bruce S]

Electrondady1;

   I can send you one , but only if you promise not to tell anyone...:-))

The are out of EKG machines that are no longer made & can't be repaired for one reason or another.

VERY Nice units, I'm endibtted to Norm for all the tests he's doing with the unit I sent. I have had to back off some of the tests. Work is getting real strict about testing stuff including the batteries.

I have three at home, saving 2 for to try some ideas Ed gave. Will have more later, gotta get through the next 100 batteries first.

my email address is Bruce(dot)Stahl(at)gmail(dot)com, send along an address that UPS can diliver to and it's be on it's way this week.

Bruce S

[Bruce S]

Hello Norm,

  Thanks for the clarifaction of the cut. It took me a little to understand the reason for the < cut. Bruce S

[Bruce S]

Ed

WOW, boy did you give me some ideas!!!

I have a small storage shed 8'x10' with 10' in NS dirrection.

I'd like to make use of the buckets and will go with the 2:1 ratio , using Norm's "<" idea.

Yours of using the fence was nixed by the wife unless I can make it "pretty".

We'll see, I can run all the wires straight down the roof line of the shed and make several of them mounted on a common stablizing shaft. This will also helpme find out how noisy they may be if I decide to make the plunge and begin mounting them on the house. I'll have to stay in the 2'by 1' size though.

50' NS 2 story high and nothing more than 150' close , should get good wind from that.

I'll use the shed as a starting place.

Bruce S

[wildbill hickup]

Do you have a link to little erma I trier to run the avi file but don't seem to be able to. I just got a bunch of buckets from a friend and I'd like to have a look

Wildbill

[electrondady1]

bruce ,that is a truly generous offer and i won't forget it, but i must refuse. if i put one more potential generator in my shop i'm going to go mad.

i have;

 the 10" dual stator (maybe triple stator soon!) i'm working on now.

the 8" steel disks for a dual stator rig thats next(saving for 24 of ed's wedge mags)

two 14" gm auto trans flex plates drilled and mounted to one of three trailer hubs ive scrounged.

two 19" spoked antique (W.W.2 ammunition carrier) wheels with hubs (dual rotor radial flux written all over them).  

two 9"  disk brake rotors  turned and mounted (four holes , fits my trailer hubs)

the 4 110v 1/3hp  motors with starter coils slated for conversion.

the 4 delco auto alternators expressing interest in being reincarnated as wind genies

but please,please, feel free to send hundreds of neo magnets.ha ha ha

shawn

[Norm]

Made a test very scientific 30ft.lbs/min to light 2 leds

[electrondady1]

rotonuts told me how to do this last week , ill try.   http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/2793/little_erma_004.avis

well , if it doesn't work , look in norms diarys under yea savonas , roto, posted the address.

[electrondady1]

you'll need to elaborate a little norm. it takes 30 ft.lbs to crank the gearbox?

[Norm]

 5 pound weight turns it and moves it 1 ft in 10

seconds ...string wrapped around 1 inch shaft and

unwinding 1 ft. in 10 seconds is fast enough to

light the two leds...pics and more details

tomorrow....some real fun!

   Starting to realize how much power is stored

in 4 AA batteries....amazing!

              ( :>) Norm.

[rotornuts]

Try this.

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/2793/little_erma_004.avi

Don't know why but your link has an s in the .avi

Mike

[Norm]

  Well here's some more detail about the test...

 BR>

 I took a short length of tubing and stuck it over the gear, wrapped some nylon string around

this makeshift drum and hooked the end of it to

a milk jug handle and after filling it with

enough water so the weight is just enough to

unwind at a rate just fast enough to light the

leds at a brilliance equivalent to about the 4

AA batteries would have been (80 fluid oz.)which

I figured was a 5lbs. , as the weight descended

and lit the LEDs I counted 10 seconds for the

weight to descend 1 ft. so 30 ft.lbs a minute.

so the jug would travel 360 ft. in 1 hr. or 2880

ft. in 8 hrs.

   Hmmm.  so much for now.....

                       ( :>) Norm.