Day two: Excited and Energized. Need a plan.

[TexasWind]

So far I am just using the diary function to deal with my thoughts so as not to disrupt the main posting board.  Having studied alternative and wind energy via observation and pondering, I am now ratcheting it up to real learning and application.  Preface: there is too much in my mind to keep organized in print in less than many pages.  So, I am just jumping in!  (FYI: I try to think and write in outline form when possible, or at least use headings to identify line of thought).

GOALS AND OBJECTIVES

1. Decrease my personal home energy costs (electric bill).
   
2. Sell energy back into the grid (I was told by a PUC consultant that Texas requires 10kw minimum for grid tie).
   
3. Be adequately self-sufficient on the infrequent occasions when the grid fails.
   
4. Sell energy back into the grid, see my electric meter spin backwards, and have the electric co-op start mailing me checks.
   
5. To be realistic in regards to #4.
   
6. Wind my own high-wattage rotor without being afraid or overwhelmed.
   
7. To express my creativity through all this.
   
8. Perhaps start a wind-energy-related business and break free from my boring career in I.T. [for which I am currently uneployed - again].
   
   

PHILOSOPHIES AND VIEWPOINTS

At this stage I am obviously more full of questions than answers.  So, I ask "what if" and "why not?"

I want to go the low-prop-speed/high-torque route and use gearing to run a shaft at speed where I can "easily" connect whatever rotor or generator head I want.  As such, here is my first step.  Maybe it takes me down the path to success, or maybe it is my first big mistake.  But, good or bad, I did it.  I bought a set of 4 big fat daddy blades (14' diameter on a 100 lb. metal hub):

                          Will need a sturdy tower indeed.

At first I thought I could simply buy a 10kw head at HarborFreight.com and start cranking.  But, after doing a bunch of reading on this forum, me thinks again.  With the expecation of widely-ranging shaft RPMs, it sounds like the homemade rotor is the way to go.  (help me here, what is the proper term for the entire generator?  Generator?  Rotor?  Head?).

If each blade is 33 lbs., then we're talking about a 230 lb. propjob ( oh my gosh!  What am I thinking!?)

Originally I thought I would use the rear end out of an old Cadillac to mount the hub and initiate my drive train.  But that sounds too monstrous and/or likely clumsy and off balance.  So, maybe I should use a right angle gearbox to send a vertical driveshaft downward that I can harness at ground level.  But then that defeats my original imaginings of a completely self-contained pivoting unit that merely "wires" electricity to my destination (this concept was in hopes of having a simplifed straight tail and then pivoting the top of the tower backwards against springs in case the winds got too heavy).  Though I am creative and mechanically-inclined and capable, I am not at all the engineer that I percieve most of the others here to be. Thus, simpler is better for me.

Whether you agree or disagree, I welcome your feedback and ideas!

Come to think about it, that's probably enough for this post.  I have some other thoughts that I will create a new entry for.   - Stephen

[Gary D]

After seeing your "first" set of blades, I think I'll take back the little project I suggested from Ed at windstuffnow. I think you should search diary's by zubbly (click the search the board on top right). He has a batch (3) of motor rewind how to's. You could spend quite a while just absorbing that data... just a thought. Gary D.

[windstuffnow]

  Wow Stephen !   Where did you find those?  Must be from some ventalation fans for a large secret underground complex.   They won't spin fast but they'll give you an enormous amount of torque.   Mount them on a hillside into the prevailing winds at various positions just above the ground and you'll power your neighborhood.. I count 12 of them laying there.  Thats about 1850 sq ft of wind collection or 5000 watts in a 12 mph wind total.  That will keep you busy for awhile!

.

[hiker]

looks just about like my old four blader[unfinished]--lots of tork low speed..

had it hooked to a small motor alt[geared up]..

heres my latest 4 blader[untested] the angle is in the hub --so it saved a little carving..

whats your planes with all those blades? real heavy weights-no dou"t.....

well good luck...........

[MelTx]

  Hello T.Wind...If your trying to learn,without spending a lot of money..Try the rebuilt A/C motor route..The 263/460 volt ones give pretty good results, without a lot of trouble.I use a chain drive to make the replaced generator shaft turn about 5 to 1....That way you can use a lot of blades for easy startup in a mild wind.. The east side of loneStar dont get enough dependable wind for what your thinking   Unless your up in the arm-a-dilla area the tower will have to be 600ft tall to ever get enough to sell back to TXU... If you dont got a lot of din-ero Read Read Read.

      Oh my! but they are fun when the wind blows...aint nothing like it..  MelTx

[TexasWind]

Gary, thanks for the suggestion.  I did check them out.  Good info, but still too much for me to really grasp just yet.  Stephen.

[TexasWind]

Hey Windstuff Ed, Yeah, they are from some cooling fans with "advanced aerodynamic design", or something like that.  I "won" them in an online auction.  I wish I had all of the sets int the picture (I think I wish that).  Good news for you and everyone else, there are more where I got mine!

[TexasWind]

Hiker, glad to see another 4-blader.  Would love to compare notes (or rather, just copy yours - he-he).  Am still trying to figure out my plan.

[TexasWind]

Hey MelTx, you are right about the Pan Handle having lots of great wind.  Where I live on the plains of North Texas is not too bad, though.  I have an open field with miles of open fields all around, and prevailing southern breeze (10 mph?) most/lots of the year (.

Thanks for pointing me to your postings.  Last night I was thinking about messing around with bicycle sprockets and chains and found some posts about it.  I will definitely read more about it.

Real quickly, I came across some posts on trolling motors late last night.  Then I remembered I had a little old one of my own, so I ran out to my shed to experiment.  



Using my 2900 rpm drill I was able to light up a little 12v tester.  But using a slower viarable speed drill, it did not light up.  I'll have to get a multimeter from Harbor Freight to get a full read on the output.  I though about putting a small wind prop on it.  But regardless of whether air or water, if the shaft has to achieve 2,900 RPM to produce anything, then it looks like I'm "shafted". (chuckling to self.  he-he).

About your suggestion for using old A/C motors, is this one good for anything?





I am still trying to discern what has value and what is junk (but my wife tells me it's all junk, so I am gonna have to work really hard to prove her wrong some day).

There are lots of "resources" around my property.

Not knowing anything yet about winding my own rotors, would the 4 rotor discs off this car be something I could use?  Also, I guess I could use the alternator and anything else I want since it won't be doing anything else with a blown engine.



- Stephen

[motorhead2]

go to 'search the board'.You will learn a lot there.This site is awesome.Be carefull not to get too addicted and forget about your family.Have fun study hard and good luck.

[scottsAI]

Well TexasWind your first lesson will be to check everything your told.

(I was told by a PUC consultant that Texas requires 10kw minimum for grid tie).

Take a look at the link below:

The Database of State Incentives for Renewable Energy (DSIRE) is a comprehensive source of information on state, local, utility, and selected federal incentives that promote renewable energy. To access information, use the menu to the left or click on the maps below.

http://www.dsireusa.org/index.cfm

No ware does it say anything about 10kw, (not that I could find).

Have fun.

Scott.

[MelTx]

   Naw I dont think you can get the washmachine motors apart.I get all my motors and metal at the scrap yards.In this area they sell them back priced by the pound.

   You can get a good motor that way for not much.Take the rotor out of a smaller motor.Knock out the center shaft and drill out the center.Then use allThread for the new shaft and glue mags on.And away you go.Look for the higher volts & amps A/C motors with lower rpms..The 230/460 ones can be used with stock windings...I am still working on getting mine right but I think ole Zubbly can advise you well.

                                 Happy motoring.          MelTx

[TexasWind]

Scott, good point indeed.  So, I looked around and found this link in the incentives-by-state section: http://www.dsireusa.org/library/includes/GenericIncentive.cfm?Incentive_Code=TX10R&currentpageid
=3 .  If I'm reading it right, there is no minimum threshold.  Now that I think about it, that info I received is a good couple years old.  I'll start making phone calls next week - even though I still don't have a genny to bring online.  Thanks!

[nothing to lose]

"Good news for you and everyone else, there are more where I got mine!"

Where and how much??

And when your looking for motors don't forget DC motors are already gennies waiting to be mounted

 I have a 2 hp 75lb 180V 11-16amp one I paid like 12 cents a pound for. Each cog I felt turning it by hand made a 12Vdc fan blade jump. Mounted properly and spinning fast enough thats about 2880watts perhaps, maybe more. And I have found brushless DC motors cheap of about 1hp, might make around 750-1000 watts geared up.

Probably not the best idea, but if you have the torque and winds you could probably gear up several motors off one shaft. I been thinking about that with 2 identical Efka motors I have. Use one rotor and shaft, mount a motor to each side and gear them both up off the one shaft. Maybe use two chain drives, one for each motor.

Anyway if there are more blades I may be interested in a set for a larger idea.

[scottsAI]

TexasWind, you found it right. I posted general link so everybody can find their states info. Just a click away!

I considered an IT carer, I like computers (have 16 running SETI), decided IT was to iffy. So, I'm an EE. Good choice, never unemployed. Three jobs in 20 years, all my choice, many opportunities for EE.

Keep posting your progress on your system. We all learn from it.

I'm thinking next summer to build a 6kw system. Looking at several smaller or two bigger or one big one. Tower seems to be the big cost decider, not the gen.

The big one is beyond using wood for the blades (I think) Not sure if that is good or bad...

Choices, choices, lots of fun!

Scott.

[wildbill hickup]

Well having lived in the Lone Star for awhile this seems to be just about right for a Texans version of small,(so much for soda cans and papertowel tubes):->

On a serious note on the "need a plan" part of your subject into,if your starting a project with a prop that weighs 230lbs, and has a dia of 14 feet you might want to concider what you are going to mount this monster on as one of your first designs. In addition to the weight of the prop, you will also have, generator, tail, drive apperatice, and the such, Your probably talking 300lb+ genny not to mention the wind pressure against a 44 square foot area(I think I did that right, diameter X pi). I don't know the wind pressure caculation, someone here does and if they wouldn't mind calculating say for a 10 MPH wind I think you'll find,That's a lot of force!!  Even on the flat plains your still going to want to get your genny say 30 or 40 feet minimum off the ground. This isn't going to be some piece of pipe you jam in the ground. Your tower is by far going to be the most expencive(well thought out anyway) part of your design. Not a bad idea to befriend a structual engineer if you don't already have one. I'm not trying to be a wise guy here, just needed to say your tower is going to take some serious thought and planing.

Wildbill

[wdyasq]

Wildbill,

I think you gots your formula wrong - it is pi X radius squared or pi*d^2/4.  I get 154 square feet - about like 5 sheets of ply.  I also think he will have more than a quarter of a ton on top of a tower.  When the 'Texas Blue Norther' blows through and the wind pipes up to 80 mph it will test any tower.

I too recommend he build a smaller mill or two before he launches the larger one. I'm not sure how the 4-Blade will react when elleptically furling.  The 'load and dump' of the airfoils will be about 180 degrees out.  It will remain to be seen if this is a problem with a 4-blade mill.  It is defiantly a problem on 2-blade mills.

The average wind speed of 10 mph will produce less than 250 watts. That is about 180kWH a month w/o downtime.  At .10kWH that's $18 a month, Just what my electric company would charge for the second, I think required, meter. And, with grid-tie you get to deal with another set of tin hat gawds set to prove they have power over your business. As I have said, similar to leasing your to a pimp.  That is after you buy the grid-tie inverters and, Id bet, requires licensed folks.  Sort of pay the guy to introduce to the pimp you pay so you can sleep with your wife sort of deal. BUT- I would love to be proven wrong on grid-tie.

That said, there are several companies who do build towers in the area. I would think a simple phone call would be all need to get an idea of the costs of a professionally installed tower to support a mill with the frontal area of 1-1/2 Semi-truck-tractors in  the worst case senario.

Ron

[TexasWind]

NothingToLose, I've had the same idea about running multiple gennys from a single shaft.  In fact, this summer in Manistee, MI, I saw an old shoemaker's machine in the town museum that had about nine different devices running off the same shaft.  Just keep the kids and loose clothing clear.

So, from what you are saying about the 12v DC motors, it sounds like I could harvest the Air Conditioner fan blower and the electric radiator cooling fan from an old car.  Also, I guess the alternator is good to go, right?  Now, what about the starter - is there a way to some how utilize that?  Next I'll have to figure out all the voltage regulation stuff out.

Big blades: my secret is out...  You can find the fatdaddy blades by going to eBay and searching for WINDMILL BLADES.  They are in Illinois just northeast of St. Louis.  I'll be picking mine up on the way to Michigan for Christmas vacation.  I had this great idea about buying all of them and launching my own windfarm.  Unfortunately, one set was all I could afford at this time.  - Stephen

[electrondady1]

welcome to our world of windmills texaswiind! on this site you will discover people with knowlege of wind power as well as people who seem to be full of wind. ha! ha!

may i suggest, what ever design you come up with , if you can place your mill where you can see it out the window as you will be wanting to check it out every morning.

[nothing to lose]

 Yes many things can be ran off one shaft as long as the device powering the shaft can handle the load, and the shaft handle it too of course. I think it might be Silver Dollar City in Branson MO. where I saw an old fashioned wood furniture shop. All the equipment ran off one large over head shaft with the large old fashioned leather type belts. It was not wind powered though, not sure how they powered they're shaft really.

"So, from what you are saying about the 12v DC motors, it sounds like I could harvest the Air Conditioner fan blower and the electric radiator cooling fan from an old car.  Also, I guess the alternator is good to go, right?  Now, what about the starter - is there a way to some how utilize that?"

Not very good stuff, most is too high of rpm and too low of power output, probably wear out fast also. And alternators need power to make power, not good either. Better are larger DC motors like from industrial equipment, and they need to be Permanant magnet motors also. Not with  wound fields, those need power like an alternator does.

Best is a DC motor with permanant magnets and no brushes, and most the industrial type motors I have gotton have bearings also not cheap bushings.

 Most Treadmill motors work but have bushings and brushes to wear out and not that much power. Ok for a smaller mill spinning fast or geared up.

Thanks for info on the blades, found them, now if I can just find some money too.

They are not that far from me. St. Louis is around 200 miles give or take a bit.

[kitno455]

texwind- i think maybe you should start with something a bit smaller, like 6 to 8 ft diameter

most folks here seem to build a relatively 'slow' speed permanent magnet alternator first, then try to build a prop to connect that gen to the available wind conditions in their area. your setup might be more complicated by having the prop first. (though it appears the blade angle can be changed? that helps)

1. can you make new hubs and make it into a 3 blader? this might be advantageous when it comes time to furl.
   
2. this is going to need a serious tower and guys. expect to spend more on that than on everything else put together
   
3. try to get something beefier than motorbike chain, either a planetary gear unit, a larger chain (like a morse from a transfer case, or a double-row timing chain from a big v8) check my diary for some thoughts there...
   
4. perhaps better than gearup, can you build a larger diameter alternator, or change the blade pitch? either of these gets the mag v/s coil speed up.
   
   

allan

[hiker]

toss the 100lb. hubs and make some out of plywood..[check out the photo on my 4 blader]

[TexasWind]

Kitno455, you might be right about my starting with something smaller.  However, I already have my mental energy committed this direction, so we'll have to see.  Having read your diary entry, I found your auto thoughts interesting.  I have a big old 1980 RWD Caddy and a 1994 Lexus FWD at my disposal.

[kitno455]

you texas guys, damn the torpedoes, and all that

sell the lexus bits on ebay one piece at a time, and use the money to put gas in the caddy

seriously, if you plan on using that big prop, i think you need to make a smaller version of the same basic thing, and try it with your little trolling motor. be aware that aerodynamics is such that things dont scale linearly (google for reynolds number).

and seriously consider making a three-blade lighter-weight hub, as an experiment...

if you end up having to use a gearbox, one of the planetary (or both!) from the th350 in the caddy works just great, with a little welding

allan