Author Topic: Real Scary Power (Read 4702 times)

WXYZCIENCE · « **on:** July 12, 2006, 07:31:44 AM »

Do we really understand the power in a lightning bolt.

My wife snapped this picture last year from her Art Studio window.

We have seen lots like that one, but yesterday we had a real scary time. The rain it truly rained, and more lightning than I've ever seen before. I was down in the cellar checking the sump. We all heard the sharp crackle, and several feet in front of me there was a huge spark. From the cellar ceiling to the cast iron pipe feeding the septic tank is at least five feet. It was just a piece of the bolt and I figured. It hit the wood stove chimney, ran down the copper pipes and jumped across to that cast iron pipe. It also killed the computer in the Studio. The hard-drive was whining like the dogs. All of my wife's tweezers she uses for picking up fine wire are now magnetic.
She asks, "Are there any suggestions on how to demagnetize them?"

After all that I am still thinking of putting up a forty foot windmill tower. Now it will be a ways from the house mind you and my wife's Art Studio. Joe.

Flux · « **Reply #1 on:** July 12, 2006, 01:48:01 AM »

You should be able to demagnetise the tweezers by passing them through a coil carrying ac.

If you have a contactor coil that should work, but you will likely need to limit the current it takes without the iron core to prevent burn out.

Supply at about half volts or connect lamps in series to limit the current.

Pass them slowly through the coil.

If you have a variac you can wind the volts down to zero with the tweezers still in the coil.

If you have no suitable coils then tie then to a string, rotate them in a horizontal plane with a magnet below them and slowly remove the magnet. Not as easy as it sounds but can be done.

Flux

dinges · « **Reply #2 on:** July 12, 2006, 07:43:40 AM »

Powerful stuff. Many amps and volts, but only for a very very short time, so relatively little power available (for those thinking to harvest the lightning

)

More seriously, I read very little on this board of lightning-proofing (lightning arrestors? what's the name in English for copper spike to attract lightning?) the tower and safely conducting it to ground.

As towers get larger, the potential for lightning strikes increases. I believe the Dans already had one of their towers & gennies struck by it.

Peter.

dinges · « **Reply #3 on:** July 12, 2006, 07:51:05 AM »

As far as demagnetizing stuff goes: a friend of mine (with a metalworking shop) has a little gadget that works on 220V and demagnetizes tools. VERY handy, especially since I've been busy for a while with neo magnets. Over time, a lot of tools tend to get magnetized.

You might check out a small machine shop, they will probably have such a thing too. Just swipe the tools over it and it's demagnetized again. As long as you stay away from Neo's , that is.

(note to self: get plastic calipers)

Peter.

12AX7 · « **Reply #4 on:** July 12, 2006, 08:33:53 AM »

Who said one is safe from lighting while hiding in the basement? Well and sump pumps are a favorite target.

Best thing I've found to "de-mag" things is a bulk tape eraser or a tape head demagnetizer. Try radio smack.

Also in a pinch a degauzing coil (for a tv) works too.

asheets · « **Reply #5 on:** July 12, 2006, 10:14:21 AM »

Very powerful indeed. But let's put this into perspective a bit. A lightning bolt is simply the discharge that happens when a system's charge overwhelms the system's dialectric. Lightning, relatively, doesn't happen all that often. Therefore, imagine the charge being stored in the dialectric (the air between ground level and, say, 30000 feet) when lightning ISN'T happening.

There's probably a few hundred kilovolts in the air above you right now, just waiting for somebody/something to tap into it.

DanG · « **Reply #6 on:** July 12, 2006, 10:20:06 AM »

Ebay has some nice 3M Corporation 120VAC hand held units for $10 or so - 3M made alot of money on recording tapes and their accesories are the cadillacs from the reel-to-reel tape era...

John II · « **Reply #7 on:** July 12, 2006, 10:29:54 AM »

Hello Wxyzcience...

Wow... we have bad lightning here in S.W. Missouri too. My neighbor told me one time he came back from a trail ride with a trailer full of horses. He had just gotten the horses unloaded when lightning hit a tree and his nice new horse van. He said it hit the trailer and pealed paint in strips on it and magnetized both sides so severely that they could just hang their pliers anywhere they wanted to on the sides of the trailer. Needless to say... the horses were frightened and tore loose from their hitching rails and ran off.

I have already made use of the power in lightning. I have burned out quite a number of items with it : (

I'm no professional, but from my research it sounds like a half grounded tower is much worse then not grounded at all. The reason being it'll allow a build up for electrostatic discharge.

I have talked to a lot of professionals and from my research.. The bottom line is to ground your tower and ground it well. Then put ionic dissipators on it. This can be purchased or made... it looks small antennas made up of a bunch of bunch needles pointing out in every direction connected to a heavy copper or aluminum grounding cable running up the tower... It drains off Ions to prevent it building a charge level up to strike potential.

They now use ultra low powered ultraviolet lasers aimed at a grounded mirror. The mirror reflects the laser beam upwards, the ultraviolet beam provides a means for a conductive path for lightning to seek the ground where the mirror is. During a storm... lightning build up can be measured and calculated and controlled discharges can be induced without it being costly.

So someday someone may figure out a way of capturing and harnessing it : )

Right now you can find plans to build up to one forth horse power electrostatic motors that use repulsive plates rather then the coils that are used in conventional motors... they can be built for very low cost. You can run these motors with a long wire if you happen to have a good strong ionic wind blowing across it.

John II

WXYZCIENCE · « **Reply #8 on:** July 12, 2006, 11:09:16 AM »

I believe there was a combination of events that made this lightning storm so severe. We had two weeks of very hot dry weather. The day of the storm a real good dry wind started to blow, and continued all day. What has made the house a conductor could also be. The grid power pole to the house is disconnect (Boy that made the power company ugly). I also added a 6 foot section to the chimney. I think we need more study into this subject. Any ideas, Joe.

terry5732 · « **Reply #9 on:** July 12, 2006, 03:28:38 PM »

Lightning rods are not to attract or ground lightning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

As stated above, they are to bleed off charge and prevent being attractive.

Placing the tweezers on a transformer in use should demagnetise. I had my sister put a wall wart on an extension cord on her magnetised VCR head. She said it didn't work. Then I found she wasn't using it at the time. It was for a PS2. After she played a few games , her head was degaussed.

100 Watts isn't much, but if released in a millionth of a second it's an explosion.

Countryboy · « **Reply #10 on:** July 12, 2006, 04:45:57 PM »

Whenever you buy electronics or high dollar items at department stores, often they have a tag for anti theft purposes. I think that tag is magnetic. Cashiers swipe that tag over a special pad to disable the tag so you can leave the building without setting off the security alarms.

Take the tweezers to WalMart and ask the cashier if she would be kind enough to swipe the tweezers a few times across the demagnetizing pad.

willib · « **Reply #11 on:** July 12, 2006, 07:33:57 PM »

I once calculated the number of 12V ultra caps that would be needed to capture a single average bolt. the thing that makes me curious is , most lightning protection devices are rated for just 6kv or thereabouts. anyone know why this is?

sure it takes millions of volts to traverse the distance that lightning bolts travel.

But my question is what is the potential when it gets near the ground?

most people think of lightning as something magical that cant be messed with.

i think of lightning as a potential power source .

WXYZCIENCE · « **Reply #12 on:** July 12, 2006, 07:45:29 PM »

Willib, lightning as a future power source is not such a far-out idea. Giving the shortage of oil and the unending growth of the power sucking devices. Just add it to the hit list for making the oil companies $. Joe

jmk · « **Reply #13 on:** July 12, 2006, 09:01:37 PM »

From what I read on lightning rods is that they provide a means for the ground current to get to the top. Then when a wet air mass comes in between the ground and cloud the lightning starts to move downward in steps of 150. When it reaches 150' from the ground the ground current will arch up to meet it. when they meet it neutralizes the bolt, cloud, and ground. The cloud may overpower the ground. Then the lightning rod will guide what is left straight to the ground. They say it doesn't attract lightning at all. lightning is going to strike no matter what. If there was no grounding rod the lightning wouldn't get neutralized before it hits the ground, and would have full power from the cloud. This happens when the ground is dry and you get the wet air mass in between

Countryboy · « **Reply #14 on:** July 12, 2006, 09:18:13 PM »

In Back to the Future, they said a lightning bolt was 1.21 gigawatts. That's 1210 megawatts, or 1,210,000 KW.

Assuming a lightning strike lasts 1/10 of a second, that's 33.6 KwH of energy per strike. At 0.03 cost per KwH for the electric company, a lightning strike would be worth about $1.00 to them.

jmk · « **Reply #15 on:** July 12, 2006, 09:55:10 PM »

They very, and I just read that it can be as high as 100,000,000 kw. All that in a fraction of a second. That's why there is no way to harness it. Where can you put and store that much power in a fraction of a second?

TomW · « **Reply #16 on:** July 12, 2006, 10:51:55 PM »

JMK;

Where can you put and store that much power in a fraction of a second?

I always thought one way would be to divert it to an extremely strong buried container and flash water to steam, use that expansion to drive a weight upwards similar to those old time steam pile drivers or something. Extract power by lowering the weight.

You get the idea.

Scary design issues probably but that might work to harness such massive power.

Cheers.

TomW [non engineer]

Titantornado · « **Reply #17 on:** July 13, 2006, 05:04:03 AM »

LOL, I can't believe Back to the Future was referenced here. That was the best laugh I had so far today. Thanks for the levity during this (fairly) serious conversation.

coldspot · « **Reply #18 on:** July 13, 2006, 06:36:42 AM »

LOL !!!

"Back to the Future"

Thanks !!!

Back in 88 I was going over the Lolo pass, (Idaho Montana Boarder).

And while stopping to water a tree, (nature call).

I saw and had pine trees over a 100' tall, less than 20-30 yards from me

get hit. Six of them in less than 10 seconds!!!!!!

The top half of these trees exploded!!!!! I mean totally!!!

(I used to have a really cool part of the core wood saved but X2 thru it

away on me, %$#*&^@).

Anyway while this is going on, I'm thinking about how well grounded I am,

standing there holding on to the important parts!

Was a really scary thing.

:|

jmk · « **Reply #19 on:** July 13, 2006, 06:36:56 AM »

Yes, it's a flux capacitor that we need to connect to the guy wire! lol

finnsawyer · « **Reply #20 on:** July 13, 2006, 09:03:48 AM »

A few years back five of my neighbor's cows were killed by a single lightning strike. The bolt came down an oak tree and got them all. The next year we sawed the tree into lumber. There was a 2 inch wide by 1 inch deep groove one side of the tree and a 1 inch wide by 1 inch deep groove on the other side. During that storm I was up the road about two miles from my place in my truck in the woods were I had been sawing wondering, if a tree was going to fall on the truck. We had heard the storm coming for over an hour. The owner wanted to saw just one more log. One too many!

WXYZCIENCE · « **Reply #21 on:** July 13, 2006, 11:53:35 AM »

I don't know what the fear of lightning is called but it is quite common. My Grandmother had a severe case of it. My old dog Ulysees (RIP) always took off to the next door neighbours house at the first flash. Netty, my wife's neighbour used to run over, bang on the door then sit on the couch holding a pillow, quiver, shake and mumble a lot. And still to this day I haven't figured out why my Grandmother thought splashing "conductive holy-water" on the inside of the windows would help. My Mother told me, that when she was a child, their home burnt to the ground after it was hit by lighting. I once found myself in the middle off a hay field. Duh...... you dummy, you are the highest thing for mile around, I thought, I can easily crawl a mile to get home. ;-) Joe.

jmk · « **Reply #22 on:** July 13, 2006, 01:54:40 PM »

I don't get to go fishing out on the great lakes often, but one time we had a strom develope when we were ten miles out. The waves got big and it was hard to stand on the boat. We were lucky that it went just south of us acrossed the Saginaw Bay. It was realy scary for me to see a lightning bolt come straight down to the water just a couple miles south of us.

Stynus · « **Reply #23 on:** July 13, 2006, 02:04:43 PM »

for demagnetising stuff you can use a soldergun.

like this one: http://huelsmann.us/bugman/images/soldergun.JPG

hold the stuf between te "hot part" (not touch it).

Goose · « **Reply #24 on:** July 13, 2006, 06:05:25 PM »

Here is something about grounding posted awhile back

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/10/24/232551/95

RogerAS · « **Reply #25 on:** July 13, 2006, 07:05:04 PM »

Country,

Nope, that's rfid technology. There's a tiny little radio transmitter inside the little plastic tag. They trun it off at the counter.

RogerAS

RogerAS · « **Reply #26 on:** July 13, 2006, 07:11:25 PM »

Hi,

That's RFID technology. There's a tiny little radio transmitter inside the plastic tag. They turn it off at the counter. Walk out without and it sends a "I'm being carried away free" signal.

RogerAS

dinges · « **Reply #27 on:** July 13, 2006, 08:20:08 PM »

6kV? You mean those little gadgets you plug into the wall between grid and your consumer appliance?

Sorry, I have trouble suppressing a silly grin. These things protect against indirect lightning strikes. NOTHING will protect from a direct hit. Except a Faraday cage.

BTW, how many ultra caps did you need? Didn't know 12V ones existed; I have seen a few that are 2600F @ 2.5V. Big boys. Wish I had a few of those. You'd still need a lot of those

Besides, ultracaps have a resistance, and they can't be charged faster than a few 100A/s (ampere per second), IIRC.

Peter. (who advises all wearers of tinfoil hats not to go outside during lightning)

Ungrounded Lightning Rod · « **Reply #28 on:** July 13, 2006, 09:03:43 PM »

Don't crawl. Crouch down with your feet close together and be low and rounded on top. And whatever you do DON'T get into a ditch to be below ground level.

Did you ever watch sheet lightning? Have you ever been somewhere that you can see the "stalk"? It looks like a fish's eye view of a lilly pad, with a cloud-to-ground stalk and a pad that spreads out in the clouds.

The point is that when lightning strikes the ground it then spreads out in the ground in the same fashion as a sheet lightning "lilly pad" in the clouds. If there are any gaps in the ground it will jump across them. If there is a long gap, like a trench it will jump across at the most conductive point. If you're taking shelter there, that's you.

(Similarly, as it spreads out, if you are standing with your feet apart and one closer than the strike than the other, some of the lightning current may find you a good enough path that it will go up one leg and down the other. Oops!)

The same kind of thing happens with houses, which form a gap in the ground. If you get a hit on one side it may jump through the house to reach a sump pump, well, water pipe, etc. rather than go around it. A hit nearby or on the house may result in several arcs as the lightning finds a path through various conductors with minimum (thought multiple) total airgap.

(A friend of my brother, in Michigan, had a house in the middle of a field with a ditch leading up to it. He was constantly having problems with stuff burning out in storms, since any hit on a nearby field put big voltages on his house wiring.)

Also: The charge in a cloud attracts an opposite charge to collect below it, and when the cloud is suddenly discharged (even by a cloud-to-cloud stroke) the charge below suddenly wants to run away. This creates a "surge" - a mini-version of the ground/conductive-object currents - even in the absense of a hit. It won't jump a very large gap. But it does a dandy job of frying electronic and even electrical devices.

jmk · « **Reply #29 on:** July 13, 2006, 10:12:15 PM »

Okay, Its like a friday night at the spookey moveies. Let me grab some popcorn before i'm to scared to go to the kithcen. I was scared of lightning before I put the turbine up! ... And to think I was afraid of big bears! I sould just take it all down.

zap · « **Reply #30 on:** July 13, 2006, 10:21:15 PM »

Tom I always thought along the same line. Run a leader through a big compressor tank and let the bolt of lightning heat up the air inside and run up the pressure. Flashing the water to steam sounds even more interesting. I figure it wouldn't be too difficult to replace the leader after every bolt fries it.

Here's the pic I used to make my avatar, I snapped this a few years ago...

jmk · « **Reply #31 on:** July 13, 2006, 10:36:32 PM »

Sounds like what you do if your hair starts to stand up?

willib · « **Reply #32 on:** July 14, 2006, 12:56:17 AM »

we need something like this to test out lightning on a smaller scale..

http://www.makezine.com/blog/img413_904.jpg

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Author Topic: Real Scary Power (Read 4702 times)