2ph Stator Winding

[vawtman]

I stripped the winding out of a motor for practice and wont be used for final winding.

12 of the 36 slots would have to share a winding (maybe phase paper in between them)

Its wound with a few? turns with rotation changed at each coil is that a bad idea?or do we want everything wound the same way?

I could drill the shared slots a hair bigger.

This whole gadget isnt designed to match windspeeds just a test for a vawt and learning the axials.



12 poles 24 mags 24 coils.Copper color 1ph Green the other.

 Thanks.

[windstuffnow]

  Looks good Vawtman, It looks like you have the pairs connected together on the output.   You should end up with 3 output leads.  You have 2 starts and 2 ends ( 4 wires for both phases ).  You want to twist the 2 end wires together from each phase, leaving 1 start wire from each phase as outputs and the pair that is twisted as a single output ( 3 output leads when your done as if it was 3 phase. )

  You can also use each phase separate and rectify each pair and parallel the rectifiers.  I made up some diagrams when I was experimenting with the 2 phase but I think their all on my laptop... I'll have to check...

.

[stephent]

vawtman..

Is each other coil of the green wound the opposite direction? Or the red coils vs the green ones?

Like--green 1 coil--CW.......green coil 2 CCW....green coil 3 CW.....green coil 4 CCW---etc..etc..

Same for Red coil set?

[Stonebrain]

Hi vawtman,

I've been thinking about your design but I don't get it.

Why not just put 12 more coils and make it 3phase?

All the slots will be shared the same in that case.

It seems to me you have a 3 phase set up with one phase missing.

(The two phases you have are not evenly spaced)

Or am I nuts?

cheers,

stonebrain

[electrondady1]

stephent

yes, what vawtman has created is esentialy two  single phase alternators.

they are overlaping and offset so the legs of one coil are located in the center of another coil.it makes good use of the magnets.

if he wires it up as ed recomends its  very usefull in a slow turning vawt.

i thought i was the only one exp. with two phase .!

[wayne]

Hey Vawtman

I have been trying something like this too, but making a simple jig for each phase. I tried tubes, and now square tubes like this. Wiring goes good for first, then 2nd its tight and 3rd impossible right now. Trying to overlap the coils like Ed's. Your Stator looks very good but lots of drilling,mill work. Still looking a simple solution. Below is an old photo using wedges that didn't work very well.

Wayne

[vawtman]

Hello Ed and thanks

 My plan is to buy an electric water heater and use has a preheater for my current heater and mount a heat exchanger in the furnace plenum.

 If i do this do you think the turbine being under load from the onset would hamper starting?

 I was planning on using each phase separate to feed 1 or 2 elements.

 Wouldnt one tie the 2 starts together and use the ends to feed the element or elements?or am i buttbackwards.

 This has been a fun project and would be an easy wind.

 Oh one more thing was planning on 2 in hand 17 for the final is that ok.Not sure of turns yet.

[vawtman]

Hi Stephant and yes how you describe it.

 one reason i like this is that the coil ends being exposed would help cooling and the unit when done wont see ma nature if i do it right.May even be indoors.

 Thanks

[vawtman]

Hello Stonebrain

 In my files theres a pic of the stator if i did 3ph.

 A trapezoidal shape with 1in inner and 2in outer would be awesome i think but the mags would be expensive.Maybe a future plan.

 This setup uses standard 1x2 mags.

 Thanks

[windstuffnow]

   Here is a diagram of a 2 phase arrangement

It's much easier to see a picture than to mentally make a picture with words... at least for me anyway.

As far as start up it depends on the turbine characteristics and the load.   You can always increase resistance to the load to adjust the performance in low winds.   Not the most efficient but it works.

Depending on your heating element resistance and voltage you may be able to use lots of turns of smaller wire for higher voltage for a 110 volt heater element.   If your using a low voltage element then the 2 in hand windings will be needed.  Lots of options depending on what your use.   For heating water I think I would go with higher voltage, seems more natural and the losses are far less.   4 amps into a heating element at 110 volts is 440 watts ( 1380 BTU ).

.  

[vawtman]

Thanks alot Ed

 Thinkin to do

[electrondady1]

vawtman,
i'm thinking this is for your 8x8 unit,
 
i recall you were checking out overdrive info

that should help to get your volts up.
 
will the heater be far from the geni?

[Stonebrain]

ok,I'll give it another try.

Say one wave is 360°.

Ph one starts at 0°

Ph two starts at 120°

at 240°:nothing.In fact this is the phase that's missing

Ok maybe you have your reasons for not putting the 12 coils

for the thirt phase,but this is still mysterious for me.

This was my last try.

Nice stator though.

cheers,

stonebrain

[Stonebrain]

hope this helps.

[electrondady1]

stonebrain might be right . it's hard to tell from the photo .

with two phase , the center of each coil should contain the legs of two coils  

[vawtman]

Electrondady the overdrive info i was seeking at the time was to drive a stock motor but after thought i would loose out on low winds.

 I plan on sizing different pulley combinations to the 8x8 and this alternator.

 For testing ill  have the elements next to it to see how noisy the alt is.If its not bad the tower is going through the roof of the house.If not itll be about 25ft away.

 Has far has having 2 legs between (love to get between 2 legs LOL)the coils that would be the case if i went 3ph.36slot 1-4 5-8 and so on.

 Love to tinker

[vawtman]

Stonebrain is this what your thinkin is. i added the 3rd ph for some reason i didnt think i could thanks.



There are to brown wires in the middle hard to see.

[vawtman]

Brown wire brown deck bad idea hope you can see it.

[vawtman]

The more i think about this configuration the more i like it.12pl with 36 coilsHmmm

3ph

 I wish my grandma was still here she would love to knit this for me.

 Actually i dont think itll take as long has stripping the wire out of the motor just for practice sake.

 Thanks Again Stone

[Stonebrain]

Yes,

I like your stator this way.Stuffed up with wire.

All the wire of the legs is in the holes of the next coil.Great!

The coil layout is incredibly smart.

The wireing will be fun!

cheers,

stonebrain

[windstuffnow]

Here are some pics of the 12/36 similar to what your doing...

I used wooden dowels to make the winding go much easier...

[Flux]

Ed   this is the usual full pitched version and will be best with your wedge magnets that occupy about 2/3 of the pole pitch.

Vawtman has a short pitched version that most likely will work out better in his case where he is short of magnet. The short pitching will reduce resistance a fair bit.

I would definitely not try 2 phase with 12 pole 36 slots.

Flux

[windstuffnow]

  Hi Flux,  Your right the wedge magnets work the best for this application, I've used the 1x2x.5 blocks on the same stator, it works well with a slight reduction in output.

  I was under the impression Vawtman had made a 24 slot stator for the 2 phase,  I wouldn't use a 36 slot stator for 2 phase either.  With the missing winding it would most likely have a similar "growl" or vibration that the single phase has.

  .

 

[wayne]

Hi Ed

I did a experiment with your Education stator some time ago and did 2 phase with it. I added to more magnets to the rotor and was getting 7-8 volts from it. So being greedy I tried to deepen up slots on plastic, turned out to be a big mess, drill ran away. Wish I had another one. Would nice if you sold these or bigger versions.

Thks

Wayne

[vawtman]

Ed would you recommend using phase paper between phases or isnt it worth the bother?

 Gonna have to change the title to 3ph stator winding

 Learned alot

 Thanks everyone

[windstuffnow]

  The only reason they use the paper is to insulate the wire from steel stators.  Using a plastic stator you shouldn't have any problem with "nicking" the wires.   It doesn't matter from one phase to another... on a steel slotted stator if you scrape the insulation from the wire while installing it there is a possibility it will short that phase.   I don't think you'll hurt the wire winding it into plastic slots.   I screwed up a couple Delco's while rewinding them because my paper wasn't the proper type.   The guys at the rewind shop call it "fish" paper... not sure why but I purchased a couple sheets from them after wasting so much time on the alternators and having to re wind my re wind... I really dislike doing something twice ( or more ).  

.

[Stonebrain]

Hi flux,

Glad you popped in.

I have a question about wireing this one in for exemple star.

Well,I said to vawtman the phases were 120° (1/3 of a wave) apart.

I lied and feel very bad about it.

In fact they are 60° apart.

Is there a way out of this?

Maybe the leads of the middle phase must be

swapped to offset it 180°,which make the three

ph 120° apart?

cheers,

stonebrain

[windstuffnow]

  Hi Wayne,

     If you need another stator send me an email, I'll be making up a batch of them tonight.  As far as a larger one, I've been toying with the idea of a 6 inch diameter unit but haven't made any molds for them yet.   I did experiment with the 8 inch with open slots, I have that one machined but haven't made a mold for it either.   I have some other ideas for moulded stators using twisted wire that will perform quite nicely... to many projects...

.

[Flux]

No problem, just reverse the ends of B phase.

If you take 3 adjacent coils then it comes out at 60deg. If you take alternate ends as your start you get back to 120.

This is common with windings that use all coils.

In the 18 coil case you effectively leave half the coils out and there is no need to reverse the middle phase.

Flux

[vawtman]

Thanks for helping out Flux

 Do you think i could increase the number of poles say to 16 instead of 12?

 Just a thought.

[Flux]

If your slot number is not a multiple of 3 times the pole number you have a difficult and messy winding.

16 pole would need 48 slots for an easy 3 phase winding.

Flux

[windstuffnow]

  Actually you could make 3 separate 12 coil 3phase windings ( 16 pole / 12 coil x 3 ).   Wiring it would require a bit of patience and some thought to get it right.   Each output would require its own rectifier and those could be paralleled.  

  I had played with an idea a couple years back of a "progressive" winding type alternator.   Very similar to the above.  Worked very well but needed a control for the low wind windings.

  Instead of complicating things you should probably complete the process on what you have going before moving on.   I tend to do the same thing, I end up with a million ideas by the time the original project is half finished...

.

[vawtman]

Ed your right KISS is the best option for me at this time.However increasing the diameter a couple in.could make a 48slotter like Flux mentioned Hmmm Maybe in the future.

Just a quikie on winding.

 Ph 1 cw ccw cw ccw

 ph 2 ccw cw ccw cw

 ph 3 cw ccw cw ccw ,is this right?

 Do you know how thick Corian countertop material is?

 Thanks a mil