More Global Warming

[wdyasq]

Seems like a few scientists don't believe AlGore.

http://tinyurl.com/3br839

Ron

Enjoy it, Ron, its the last one.

[TomW]

Funny you only pick on Democrats.

I find almost everyone I know disagrees with the Bushwacker and his cronies.

[dinges]

i like ponies

[Chagrin]

This is the problem with the global warming question -- stupid politics clouding the issue.

Mean temperatures are increasing, at least in the US. The amount of sunlight reaching the planet is reducing worldwide. The only question now is what can be done about it?

[windstuffnow]

  Whether its real or not shouldn't we try to keep the planet as nice as when we inherited it when we leave?  

.

[TomW]

Ed;

  Whether its real or not shouldn't we try to keep the planet as nice as when we inherited it when we leave?  

Exactly. And a good bit of why I despise the current "leaders" in that big white mansion inside the beltway. All big oil cronies with nothing but profit on their minds.

Anyway, I digress. Its Rons Diary so I don't want to be too hard on him just because he is a Republican agent provocateur.

Cheers.

TomW



Happy holidays to all and many returns.

[gotwind2]

Dinges,

I prefer cats, they bury there own 'doings' - saves the mess that Dogs make, and ponies

for that matter ;-)

[tecker]

 The most important issue is what we leave our Kids . I would say 80 % are  Blind consumers .THEY WILL SUFFER from constant bad decisions  . Take a good look around multiply by X . There is a bright path in developing Clean  power with more jobs and cheaper production costs. Soooo Stay on track with alternatives .Stick the alternatives  in their face and let them think it was their own good idea . You don't have to see the the Climate and environment trashed out to see that's where to current usage will  lead . Politicians don't know anything unless it's obvious .

[wdyasq]

World consumption of oil is still going up. If it were possible to keep it rising during the 1970s and 1980s by 5 percent a year as it has in the past, we could use up all the proven reserves of oil in the entire world by the end of the next decade. Jimmy Carter - 4/18/1977

There are ominous signs that the Earth's weather patterns have begun to change dramatically and that these changes may portend a drastic decline in food production - with serious political implications for just about every nation on Earth. The drop in food output could begin quite soon, perhaps only 10 years from now. The regions destined to feel its impact are the great wheat-producing lands of Canada and the U.S.S.R. in the North, along with a number of marginally self-sufficient tropical areas - parts of India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indochina and Indonesia - where the growing season is dependent upon the rains brought by the monsoon. The Cooling World - Newsweek, April 28, 1975

Mr Meacher said: "The nuclear industry was supposed to produce electricity which it claimed would be too cheap to meter. But it is now apparent that BNFL's costs are too expensive to measure. Taxpayers' money seems to be consumed by BNFL at a terrifying rate.     Inquiry urged into nuclear fuel plant, Tuesday July 27, 2004, The Guardian

------------

I was going to find a few articles about global climate change .... I found dozens, about the same number cooling or heating.

We were going to run out of oil .... many times. Ethanol from corn was going to save us ... in the late 1920's. The sky is falling ... oops, that might be a fairy tale.

But not to worry, solar calls are going to drop to $0.10 a Watt in the near future.

Ron

[Mary B]

The weather has changed considerably in the sw corner of MN. Going into another winter with barely any snow. This makes 3 years in a row with warmer than average temps, drought, and higher than normal winds.

[dinges]

Ron,

Don't worry, the world will end long before that happens. In 2012, on the 21st of december, to be exact:

http://www.levity.com/eschaton/Why2012.html

Trust me (and ignore the fact that countless of times before the end of the world has been predicted).

Is global warming just another doomsday scenario ?

Peter.

[dinges]

How many people will REALLY walk the walk and not just do the talk ?

THE single best way to drastically reduce fossile fuel consumption would be a major increase in its price. Higher prices, lower consumption. Any highschool student of economics can tell you that. (and believe me, if the price increase will be big enough, demand for oil WILL be price elastic...) Not the silly 3$/gallon (which is just half of what I pay over here in the Netherlands anyway); make it 10$/gallon. Or even better, 30$/gallon.

Now -that- would seriously reduce fuel consumption, increase the efficient use of fuel,  etc.etc. And, it could be done today. Admittedly, it's a bit drastic. But, if the climate change IS that drastic, it calls for drastic counter measures.

Can we have a vote on that one ?

Sure, it would hamper the economy a little; but of what use is a thriving economy when you're up to your ears in water due to melting polar caps... Isn't the survival of our human species (and that of countless other ones) worth it ? Drastic times call for drastic measures!

Peter.

(don't bother, I already know the outcome of the vote)

[ghurd]

Melting ice caps are nothing compared to starving masses.

Wheat broke $10, so at least farmers can afford to plant and harvest it.

What happens when rice breaks $100?

Another Mini-ice-age would do the same thing.

When asked my plans for Y2K, which was always after I was told their plan, I said I bought lots of bullets.  

They always asked "So you can shoot you own food?"

"No, so I can shoot you and take all your stuff."  ;-)

It all depends on which 'click' you want to hear.

G-

[DamonHD]

That's why I think we should raise the already high fuel duty in the UK, so if people still insist on believing the cost of travel is the marginal cost of fuel then at least it will be a little nearer the externalised truth.

If we have to pay higher costs for transport, etc, so be it.  It's not like the government is then burning the money that they get from this duty, so it can come off taxes elsewhere...

Rgds

Damon

[Ungrounded Lightning Rod]

Another question is "Can we do anything about it?".  Some of the research seems to indicate that the human contribution is a drop in a very large ocean, and that completely abandoning fossil fuel consumption wouldn't do squat.

Still another is "Should we do anything about it?"  We've been coming out of an ice age for a while and there have been periods significantly warmer than now in even this interglacial.  Those even-warmer periods apparently corresponded to very good times for plants and animals (both wild and crops/domestic animals/humans), not massive extinctions, flooding, and crop failures.

Yet a third is "Will it last?".  According to some orbital-forcing models we should already be coming off the hump of the current interglacial with an accelerating fall into another deep ice age within the next few millennia - and the current warming trend is just a tad more than is necessary to hold us out of that ice age - for the time being.

The point is that, at this point, we just don't know enough about what is going on to prescribe fixes - let alone "fixes" that might be counter-productive and are almost certain to trash economies and chew up resources that would be needed for any REAL fix that might be necessary later, while demolishing quality-of-life in the meantime.

= = = =

Which is not to say drop the effort to switch to renewable energy for our own use.  If nothing else it will make us less dependent on external supplies which are likely to become expensive and/or less available due to political meddling.  B-)

The closer you are to self-sufficiency, the less you're subject to supply-chain disruption.

[TheCasualTraveler]

Well, I'm not convinced on Global warming and our role in it.

On the other hand, I'm not convinced it isn't true either.

I like RE because it's progress, it's cleaner but mostly because it's a challange.

[jmk]

 It seems weird when the leaves stay on the trees for two extra weeks. They always use to fall by Nov first. Now it's the middle of November. I still have tomatoes on the counter that I picked when green that are now just red. It seems scary.

[Volvo farmer]

A three year sample from a single location does not climate change make. You are observing the weather, not the climate.

[tecker]

 Half the world's  burning fuel to boil water .After 200 plus years no one has put up a better plan eccept boiling water with urainium . 200kv set to to  microwave will boil water instantly . The problem is only to interupt the mass programing long enough to allow the implementation of a alternative . Use the carbon for building hard surfaces

there's more money in that exchange anyhow.

[harrie]

You must not know many people!!

[Shadow]

They say this is the warmest the earth has been in a thousand years... What or who caused it to be that warm a thousand years ago? We cant be blamed for that one!

[bob g]

we are living in a time of

"GLOBAL NORMAL!!!"

and it isn't going to make a bit of difference who or rather what is in the white

house, now or next year, next decade or century!

we live on a constantly changing planet, and to be so self centered and narcissistic

so as to believe that we are the center of anything is tantamount to insanity in my opinion.

if it gets too hot we move north

if it gets too cold we move sounth

if it gets too wet, we move higher or to drier

if it gets too dry we move toward water

its been that way since man first walked the planet,, why on earth should

it be any different now?

in my opinion primitive man knew far more than all these global warming, global cooling fanatics combined,,, he knew that he had to move if things got tough where

he was at.

funny thing,,, i don't see any cave drawing illustrateing his bitching about having to move!

rant over

bob g

ps: if anyone thinks the dem's are going to fix it,, you are sadly deluded.

if we as a nation quit burning any oil, the process is going to continue, if the whole damn world stopped tomorrow the process will still continue.  the process

does not vote republican or democrat,,, rather it is truely an independant party.

[fungus]

'..if it gets too dry we move toward water

its been that way since man first walked the planet,, why on earth should

it be any different now?

'

But it does make a bit of a difference with over 6 billion people walking the planet now...

[thefinis]

I believe that man has an effect on climate change especially locally and I want to leave my planet a better place than when I found it. I say we help control the amount of hot air pollution and each of us duct tape one politician with their mouth shut to a tree. It will reduce hot air promises. out right lies, and eventually fertilize the tree.

Seriously we know that in micro-climates we change the weather. We create heat bubbles or heat mountains over cities changing the average temp and rainfall. If you clear enough forest especially rain forest and plant crops it changes the rainfall in that area. Are we the major factor in a changing global climate or are we just helping to speed things up? Time will tell but we better learn now to live with what is coming.

Oil is a finite resource and it may not matter if we want to change or not because soon in a global timeline we will be out of cheap easy oil. The question is do we change to other dirty sources like coal or oil sands or do we really change and go with RE on a global scale.

While most are worried about energy the real crisis is in clean water. I really hope that lots of folks out there are considering rain water systems. Here in Texas there are water wars. Some that are happening now but many that are just gearing up to happen in the next ten years. Surface water is all spoken for and ground water is rapidly reaching more demand than recharge.

Merry Christmas and happy holidays and don't let the doom sayers get you down.

Finis

[tecker]

It's nice to think the earth will repair itself . The air ,the water the soil all has become saturated at different times . There was a point when water become saturated as a solvent and is  after that a different compound . It happens around a volcano all the time. Lakes become acid pond then corrode the bottom of the pond and drains off. Air gets heavy with pollutants , stratifies and moves in bands over water and drops  .Soil gets to the point it no longer grows plant life and blows away .  The time frame for the area to return to a happy zone is What 50 years 100 years 1000 years . Who can say?  It's a guess . Complexed life forms need a level of purity . If you can adjust air and water and soil then you go for a standard . Standards need to simply be raised to the maximum .There's no point in discussing any other level . Raise the bar in your mind  . As a consumer the products that are not in line get replaced . The processes that don't work etc etc . Just raise the bar.

[Stonebrain]

If half of the scientist are of one opinion and the other half have the opposite opinion,you know one thing allready:

Half of the scientists are incompetent or lyers.

What I don't like about the mediatic circus around global warming is that the global ecological crisis is reduced to the only problem of co2.

I agree with wdyasc that we should be concerned about global foodproduction.

In many cases you can see a correlation between economic devellopment an drop in food production because of destruction of arable land and destruction of fishpruducing zones.

Historic reports point out that about a century ago ALL the European rivers were rich in salmon.Salmon was a food of the poor man.There are even reports about people complaining about having to eat salmon every day!Today there is hardly any salmon in any of the european rivers.That's A LOT of fish disapeared.

Of course you will find scientists that state that there is no proof that this loss is correlated to human activity,and some extremists will even deny that this is a loss.

What is the value of being able to go out fishing in the neighbourhood and come home with some fish?

Modern economic 'scientists' will tell you this would be very bad for economic activity,because then you don't have to take plane for getting your fish in alaska or siberia and the travel agency isn't making any money on you.

cheers,

stonebrain

[electrondady1]

it is tragedy  that the government,

 of the worlds first true democracy,

and the most powerful nation that has ever been in the history of the world,

has fallen into the clutches of the "corporations ".

that the blood of your children is shed in order to protect the interests of these

soulless money making mechanisms.

with your two party system ,

i can't see a way out for the people of America.

in reaction to the u.s. blocking

any specific green house gas reduction goals,

 one opinion voiced at the recent summit in Bali,

"if America is unwilling to lead the world then please get out of the way".

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

if you have two hr.s to spare, here is an interesting bit of propaganda  

[TomW]

tecker;

Well said.

Make a conscious decision to tread lightly and leave it better than you found it. All stuff I learned before any real school.

A fair part of the human race has a looter mentality, use it up, smash it down and move on.

The only change you can really implement is in your own mind and that might spread from there.

Cheers.

TomW

Happy Holidays on Y'all.

[vawtman]

 A billion barrels of oil a day helps keep the aliens away.

[wooferhound]

It's probably that Asteroid that is supposed to hit the earth in 2012

http://www.bautforum.com/against-mainstream/13592-2012-asteroid.html

http://survive2012.com/

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0726/p01s04-stss.html

http://www.armageddononline.org/2012.php

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=47537

http://mysteriousuniverse.org/?p=789

I hope my batteries will last that long . . .

[wooferhound]

Waaay back when everybody moved around to get to the better climate it was easier. Just pack up your most valuable things and trek across the tundra till the weather was better and then build another tent or find a cave. But now we have these big valuable cities that can't move much. Now people are moving from city to city, so some cities would Lose population while other cities Grow.

[richhagen]

While it is difficult to discern fact from opinion, CO2 readings have been taken for the past few decades and show a steady increase in CO2 concentrations.  Average mean temperatures have been measured annually for a bit, and have likewise been measured to be increasing.  Ocean levels have been measured by sattelites and similarly have been measured to be increasing, all be it at only 3mm per year or so.  Those appear to be significantly researched and documented enough for me to consider them as facts.

It would strike me as odd if there were no ramifications of these three trends, whatever the causes may be, whether there is a correlation between the three or not, and regardless of whether they could or should be modified by the actions of mankind.

The future is an unknown quantity.  Change is almost inevitable, whether by our own actions, or something else.  

It occurrs to me that we are likely using up fossil fuels faster than they are being replenished naturally, and that more likely than not this is a contributing factor to the CO2 increase.  Whatever the changes that may or may not bring about, I am not overly comfortable with making major changes to our only home without knowing the consequenses.   Rich

[TAH]

Ocean levels have been rising since the end of the last ice age something on the  order of 400ft in the last 18000 years and the rate of increase was much faster then it is now. The global temperature has also been increasing since then has been higher than now as recently as 1000 years ago.