Cattle Ranchers need HELP!

[suitep123]

My husband and I are cattle ranchers.  We have no electricity on our 100+ acre ranch (except the huge PG&E towers that we can't access!)  We have a DC well pump and are currently running it on 24v using 2 - 12v deep cell batteries connected in series.  The problem is - they last less than 6 hours.

We're thinking of using a wind generator to produce enough power to keep the batteries charged.  That's all - but it seems like the more we read, the more confused we get!  My husband is a mechanic and fabricator (with no tools because they've been moved out of state), I am an accountant and we really have little to no working knowledge of electricity and how it works.  Watts/Amps/Volts what's needed to run what is all so confusing.  Hubby is a certified generator technician -but that just means he removes and replaces bad parts.

Here's where we're getting our butts kicked.  We typically get 5 - 15 mph winds out at the ranch for most of the day, on most days.  We are looking to maybe put up a wind generator to keep the batteries charged, and the well pumping water.    

The well pump manufacturer calls for 65 watts, 1.7 amp of solar power now, and when the pump is loaded for bear later it will need 155 watts and 4.1 amps.  The problem with that is that the pump wouldn't run at night after the batteries ran out and they wouldn't run in the morning til the batteries got recharged, so that sounds extremely inefficient - we'd need a whole bank of batteries.

We could really use some help figuring all this out if you would, or have the time, etc.  We would greatly appreciate any help you might be able to offer.

Thank you so much for any help......

Bob and Pauline

[ZooT]

You've said that your battery bank is good for less than 6 hours.....so there's where your roadblock is right now.

A big wind turbine would be nice......but without having the storage capability to last through any windless days you're still at the roadblock.....and the same goes for solar......

I'd be thinking about 24 hours in battery(at the 155 watt level of usage), plus 175 watts or so of solar, plus a wind turbine that's capable of doing 175 watts "on your average wind there".....

You don't really want to run from the batteries most of the time but instead be producing enough to feed your load (155 watts plus losses) and keep the batteries topped off under any "normal" conditions, thus saving the battery time for those times when the suns not shining and the winds not blowing..........24 hours worth of  battery time...and hopefully within 24 hours the sun will shine or the wind will blow again......

[wdyasq]

It seems your system is running at near 40V and may be designed for direct running off the panels.

That said, you need to figure out just what you need to achieve. By tracking panels one can get a bit more energy out. From your figures it seems you will need 155W X 24 hours power or about 3.7kW/day. If my guesses are correct, that will take about 900W of panel per pump, not including losses. The cost for panels alone will be  near $4000, per pump. The least expensive installation might be to have MPPT and tracking. I also guess you will need 300AH of battery bank at 36V ~ $500 or more of batteries. Total of this will be near $5000, just for the parts.

To see of you can go to wind power, you first need to check if you actually have the wind resource. You night get by with less battery bank, but not much. The tower to hold such a machine will not be inexpensive. A 50 foot homebuilt tower will 'scare the hell' out of $1500. My rough guess is it will take a 15' turbine if you have 10mph wind or a 12' turbine if you have 12moh wind. Parts for the mills will cost between $700 and $1500. This is for all 'Do It Yourself' mill construction. As you can see, the costs are getting near each other.

Your situation has so many variables it will be difficult to choose what you need to do without a bit more information. Your climate and rainfall activity may oops - WILL have  lot of influence on your system. 100 acres is also not that large of a plot of land. If square, it is only 2100 foot per side.

IF one has grid-power it may make far more economical sense to use grid power for water pumping. A small diesel and properly sized generator/alternator may make a good 'get-by' system until you build/buy what you actually need.

We have yet to discuss the old style 'water pumping windmill'. It too has a lot of good attributes.

Good luck,

Ron

[Stonebrain]

Consider allso that in stead of electricity-storage,you can store the water in a reservoir on groundlevel(so that the water can flow in the drinkingplace by gravity).

Having allways water for some days available means a protection against grid-failure,windless days,pomp-failure or whatever.

If Hubby is doing well in mechanics you might consider the old style pumping wind-mills as wdyasc said.Probably he will be able to maintain and repair such a mill.

Electronics,and most devices related to electricity:if it fails, you have to replace,even if you have some understanding of electricity.

cheers,

Jaap

[Old F]

Bob and Pauline

Ron makes a good point about water pumping mills

Are you using this to just to  water live stock ?

Or your home or both?

A bit more  info would help

After the water is above ground how is it stored or is it?

 Oh an Ron for most 100 acres' is a nice chunk of land

In less  of course  you're a mid west grain farmer then it's a garden patch  : )  

Old F

[wdyasq]

Old F,

100 acres can be minimal for cattle ranching or a good sized spread depending on terrain and climate. In my adult life I have lived and worked in both such areas. There are vast stretches of West Texas that will not support but one head of cattle year round on 100 acres.

Only point being we have no idea how this ranch is 'laid out'. We have no idea of the water table depth or the volume of water that can be pumped from one well or bore in a time period.

Because most of us know batteries and their use, we do know running a battery bank to minimum every day makes for short battery life. We don't know how the supplier of the pumps have the upper and lower trips for battery voltage level set the things up.

Until this poster responds with some facts, no real advice can be given.

Ro

[tecker]

You were a little vague there . Just to restate the problem

You have I think solar and batteries dedicated to the well .You have fair wind but want some help getting into a wind system .

I have to say an above ground cistern is a good stopgap for now to get some water for night use also get some catch from the roof and barns etc.

Add more Batteries to max out what you have in solar

I'll bet your using gas gen set for most everything else just a guess from your post .

Wind is the main focus of this forum so find an old wind mill tower from some neighbors and put up a conversion for now and   maybe buy a kit from the Dans here ( or a finished unit If the moneys there ) or kit from Windstuff both are good units .

[Old F]

Ron just teasing  any  one  with an air born John Deer combine has to be farming some

serious acreage  : )

Old F

[kenl]

 What pump are you using? What is your static head? How much water do you need per day?

kenny

seemed like a good idea at the time

[suitep123]

We are using the water to supply a water trough, gravity fed from storage tank - not for drinking water or house supply or anything else.  We do have a large storage (10,000 gallons or so) tank, 40 foot away, to pump the water into so we have a reserve built in - we need to find a way to keep our batteries charged.

During times when the cattle are in that area, the demand for the trough is as high as 480 gallons per day. The well has stagnant water level of about 4 feet with a bottom of 27 feet (more like we've tapped into a spring or seep well).  Because it is so shallow and the recovery rate of the well, combined with the pumping power of the pump, we have a timer set for 10 minutes on and 10 minutes off.

We just need to be able to keep the batteries charged.  We've got almost $1000 invested in the pump system itself and would like to make it work.  We are currently leasing, but looking for our own chunk of pasture and hoping to take the system, and wind generator knowledge with us, God willing, when the time comes.  We are very intrigued by capturing the power of the wind.

At any rate...my husband is a "chronic tinkerer" and if he doesn't have some sort of complicated project going, besides ranch chores and repairs, he goes stir crazy.  Currently, we both are also working for an auto dismantler and have access to 2000 cars and 50 years worth of inventory.  Hubby was looking tonight at making bearing blocks out of water pumps, etc......so any ideas that way would be very helpful too.

Thanks again for any help or information.  Please feel free to ask for more information as needed to get a better grasp of our situation.

Pauline and Bob

[suitep123]

Sorry if this creates a double post - I'm still learning this system.

We are using the water to supply a water trough, gravity fed from storage tank - not for drinking water or house supply or anything else.  We do have a large storage (10,000 gallons or so) tank, 40 foot away, to pump the water into so we have a reserve built in - we need to find a way to keep our batteries charged.

During times when the cattle are in that area, the demand for the trough is as high as 480 gallons per day. The well has stagnant water level of about 4 feet with a bottom of 27 feet (more like we've tapped into a spring or seep well).  Because it is so shallow and the recovery rate of the well, combined with the pumping power of the pump, we have a timer set for 10 minutes on and 10 minutes off.

We just need to be able to keep the batteries charged.  We've got almost $1000 invested in the pump system itself and would like to make it work.  We are currently leasing, but looking for our own chunk of pasture and hoping to take the system, and wind generator knowledge with us, God willing, when the time comes.  We are very intrigued by capturing the power of the wind.

At any rate...my husband is a "chronic tinkerer" and if he doesn't have some sort of complicated project going, besides ranch chores and repairs, he goes stir crazy.  Currently, we both are also working for an auto dismantler and have access to 2000 cars and 50 years worth of inventory.  Hubby was looking tonight at making bearing blocks out of water pumps, etc......so any ideas that way would be very helpful too.

Thanks again for any help or information.  Please feel free to ask for more information as needed to get a better grasp of our situation.

Pauline and Bob

[wiredwrong]

I would not use water pump parts for bearings, for your needs I would think that maybe a treadmill motor and pvc blades(search for zubwoofers) a dump controller, and a larger battery bank, possibly something like this

http://www.velacreations.com/chispito.html

they are easy enough you could put up as many as you need.

[tecker]

If you are working for a juckyard you have what you need the Some Volvo front end parts  should do the trick. Well documented follow along projects here.

[Old F]

With what we know we can agree that the battery bank is to small.

Here's a suggestion  seeing  were you work you have a wealth  car batteries at hand .

Car batteries  are not the thing to use  over the long term but can be used as a learning tool  

 Find out what your employer  gets for a battery it won't  be to much and offer him the same.

For testing you will need a volt meter a cheap one from HF will do an battery charger .

The rest you will be able to get at work.  A way to discharge  the battery some head lights  and a amp meter

And cables to wire them together  .

A likely candidate will be from a car or truck with a V8 engine .

Check the voltage  if  its below 11 volts move on find four  as a start that read  11 to 12 volts and have good water  level . When you get them home see if they will take a charge should read around 13 volts fully charged  if not take that one back and trade it for  one that will.

The next test is to discharge them using the car head lights as a load .  

Using the amp meter you can find the wattage of the load  by using Ohms'  law  amps X volts = watts

For a quick and dirty  battery amp hour  test  with a known amp draw from a load time how long it takes for the battery to go from full charge volts to full discharge volts  about 10.5

This is what's called battery capacity  The time it takes a known  amp draw over time can be in amp hours or amp minutes this is a very  quick over view.

 There is a lot more to it an I will let others help fill in the blanks.

When you have four batteries that have been charged an discharged  at lest two times to be called good

You wire them up an trade them with the batteries  your using  now if your still getting  only six hours run time it means that you have maxed out you charging source solar panel  and need to add more charging    capacity  from wind or solar  

I know the above seem like a lot of work but a long the way you will gain some  first hand knowledge  

On battery banks an there care an feeding  on the cheap.

 There are a lot of good folks here who will help fill in the blanks

And if nothing else your hubby will be in tinkering hog heaven an not under foot for a wile

There could be a lot said for that alone : )

Old F  

[finnsawyer]

Here's another case of looking at the problem wrong.  You don't need battery energy storage.  That simply wastes some of the power.  You lose energy putting the charge in the batteries and some more getting it out.  You would be better off going to a mechanically coupled wind powered pumper with a large enough storage tank.  By your own admission the tank you have now would provide enough water for 20 days between wind events.  How likely is that?  Just because you have an investment in the current system doesn't mean you should continue with it.  A water pumper can be geared to fit the average flow rate of the well, as well.  

[Old F]

If it were a true well I would agree but  from what they are saying its more of a seep than a true well

They are pumping it dry and having  to wait for it to fill

Then pump again if you used a water pumper

 It would be going load to no load

An back again

I don't know but I think that it wound not hold up to long running

like that

Old F

[Old F]

Dooh  sound of hand  hitting forehead

Why didn't I think of this sooner  

If there is room do away with the pump timer and use a float switch

This way you would only use power when water is present .

This could make better use of the power and be a lot cheaper than adding storage and charging capacity. Or reduce the size any that mite be needed

Old F

[Old F]

I wish I could come up with this all at at the same time an save on  posts : )

You could use a smaller pump that pulls less power over a longer time an if its

An  adjustable timer it could be used to dial in the pumps on an off closer to the real load

Old F

[suitep123]

Wow, thank you so much.  We have 2 batteries now and will snag a couple more from work to do the load tests.  Our bosses aren't big fans of Volvo's or Saabs and the like - they tend to go straight to the crusher.  We don't get many of them in but I"ll keep my eyes peeled.

We originally were going for a float switch - problem being there is only a 4 inch pipe and no room for it to operate.  

Our ranch is 103 acres in California (Napa Valley area).  We have a small start-up herd.  The property should support 40 head or so.  Our original intention was to purchase a ranch in Tennessee - but the housing market fell out with most all our stuff already moved and in storage in Alabama.  This place was sort of dropped in our laps with a 1 year lease that would be ending this August.  BUT - the lease was extended for a couple years, so we changed tack and are looking at doing some breeding and calving rather than selling out and recouping our expenses on the shorter term.  It hadn't been ran in 30 years so it took a lot to get it ready to work again.  Because of the lease extension, we now need to get this secondary water supply up and running.  We're doing controlled grazing and getting this water up and running will GREATLY increase the useability of the front pastures.

At any rate - thanks again for so much information and we will keep plugging along.

[spinningmagnets]

If I read your post right, its a 27 ft deep well?

Perhaps put together a 20 ft run of ~2" diameter PVC that is capped at the bottom so the air-filled plastic pipe will rise when the water level rises. When the water reaches the level you want the pump to start at, mark the PVC, cut and glue a T with ears so it cant fall back into the hole.

Meybe slide it into a 6" section of 2-1/2" thats attached to the side of the well at the top to align it. As the T rises and drops, it can actuate a switch at the top of the well. Best of luck!

[Old F]

Spinner

I like your thinking here is what I came up with

 

Old F

Have so much fun it should be illegal

[thefinis]

This one sounds like a perfect setup for one of the airpumpers/bubble lift units. You have about 24 ft of standing water when full and probably 12 ft of head to the top of the tank. It would not pump the well dry and most likely could be installed while the solar pump is still in the well.

I have not built one but there is one of the old bojohn? units that I see on a regular basis that has been pumping for many years. It did take a hit a few years ago in a storm and needed new blades but other than that it seems to keep going.

My guess is that for your site a 3/4 inch lift line and a small air supply line 3/8? might could even go with smaller pipe sizes. A set of pvc blades and a rescued air pump (ac compressor, pollution control air pump, small lawnmower motor heck use your own ideas from that big resource pile at work) and a few joints of pipe, a tower and furling setup and you are in business. Very little that should cost much and all should be relatively easy to make.

I would have tried one of these but my water level and depth of standing water is too low to expect one to work.

Finis

[elvin1949]

Old F

 I agree.   Run dry the leathers would not last.

later

Elvin

[finnsawyer]

It can't be that bad since it's ten minutes on and ten minutes off.  Even a "seep" is capable of some continuous rate of refresh.  You scale the system accordingly.  We don't have all the information, as usual.  I also don't see any need for "leathers" in the pump design.  Use mechanical flapper type valves.  I am sure even with such a low yield well one could come up with a design that would work well.

[suitep123]

Someone had suggested using a treadmill motor for a wind generator, can't find any 260's around here, only 120 on ebay @ over 5000 rpm and the bearings look too weak.  

When doing our research, we looked for lighter voltage pumps and all we could find were PVC test pumps that were only guaranteed for like 200 hours - less than a month for our useage.  Local well places wouldn't even deal with us - most do not do DC power anything anymore.  They told us to get PG&E to run power lines.  We have huge PG&E towers on the property, and a pole right outside the front gate.  When they came out the guy wouldn't even give me an estimate to have it done - I had to officially apply for service (at over $100) before I could even get an estimate.  He did say it would take 3 poles and a transformer to run this maybe 20 feet!  Maybe if we owned the property instead of leasing it might be an option.  A friend of our 26 year old son's isn't the brightest tool in the shed - I bet if we told him to, he'd take a wire up one of those huge towers and try to tie in!!!!  :-)

We hit the steel mill yesterday for motors, going to the flea market today.  We're looking for PVC - we have plenty of steel, scrap and otherwise.  We'd love to convert a GM alternator if it is feasible.  Hubby knows he could make that assembly but he doesn't understand furling yet.  The VAWT looks pretty cool too and we have supplies enough to build that without the alternator.

Finis - we haven't heard of this pump.  Do you have a website or link to anywhere we could get more information?  Pumps?  Piece of cake!

Old F - that upright float switch also looks very do-able.  Hubby's thought of something similar to this before.  We can see how the switch gets turned on so the pump doesn't run dry, but if we rigged a switch at the bottom to turn the pump back off when the water level got low the pipe would be so tall it would stick way up out of our pump house - part of why we opted for the timer instead. (It is an adjustable timer by the way and we'll always be playing with the settings between seasons).

We've been beating our heads on the wall - maybe overthinking or we just don't know enough......

Thanks again so much!  We truly appreciate all the suggestions and ideas!

Bob and Pauline

[zeusmorg]

  Some pumps have an internal switch that cuts them off if they run dry, does yours?

 If that's the case a float switch would be unneeded. You may look at the specifications of your particular pump..

 Don't go down the VAWT road on your first attempt i know they look practical, it's just that not many have had much sucess building a working one that generates practical electricity.

 My suggestion would to build an axial 10' these are good, practical machines with a good history of success. If you haven't found the step by step, it's here: http://www.otherpower.com/turbineplans.html

 There's a few discussions on the board about the tail furling system, but maybe a quick synopsis may help.

 Below cutin speed the tail boom is offset to the left 5 deg.when the wind picks up forcing the blades back, the tail rotates to the right and upwards and cutin should occur at 0 degrees. When the windspeed picks up further pushing the blades back, the tail rotates off center and upwards furling the mill until the maximum furling occurs.

 The weight of the tail and boom creates a downward force trying to push the blades back to 0 so it's a balance between wind force on the blades and the force of the tail.

 http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/3/9/232440/9997 good discussion of furling.

 Another thought, since you have access to tons of alternators, it may be possible to unwind the copper for your coils.

[kenl]

 Still not sure what brand of pump your using but it sounds like it is oversized for the recovery rate of the well. I would have to agree that a mechanical pump might be a better fit for you given that it sounds like you have the wind necessary for this.

 You can build the head yourself out of PVC. If I can find which computer I saved the link on I'll post it for you.

 Still would be interested in what brand pump your using and how much solar you have for charging the batts.

kenny

seemed like a good idea at the time

[suitep123]

We have a Shurflo 9300 series - and we do not have any solar or anything.  When we tested the well in the garage in a 5 gallon bucket and it ran for two full days on a single 12V battery we figured we would be OK.  Hubby was going to use a lawnmower engine with an alternator to charge the batteries.  Once the pump was installed and the push/lift/load was added into the equation - the batteries aren't lasting even a day.  We can't have a generator out there running 24/7.  Solar would only be charging during the day and the two deep cell batteries would be dead all night and we would have to start from scratch the next morning.

We are questioning the use of a DC or AC pump at all at this point.  Who would have thought it would be this difficult to get what we thought would be a continuous 50W into the system.  Going through the research and headaches we had during this process, we really thought we were making the right choice, especially with the ability to time it to accomodate the slow recovery in the summer.  Now with wet ground and all the rain we have had it would probably run round the clock.  All the other pumps we found were junk, basically.

We also hadn't heard anything about a bubbler air pump or a mechanical pump.

If you hadn't figure it out, we're pretty discouraged right now.  Y'all are great with your information and suggestions.  Thank you very much.

Bob and Pauline

[MattM]

If all else fails you can always slave a yoke to some of the cattle and have them drive the pump.  Why should you do all the hard work?

[suitep123]

I had thought of a Calf powered pump but the Silly thing just wont stay on the Wheel.

Thanks Guys I needed that, Been a long weekends work.

Bob  

[zeusmorg]

 Well, looking at the specs on your pump, it will deliver 110 gallons per hour @ approx 60 watts at the depth of your well. So if you pumped for 5 hrs a day, you would exceed your usage. I don't know if your well goes "dry" or not. If it does, a float switch would be in order since this pump does not have a dry cutoff.

 Basically you will need a system that will provide 60 watts of 24v electricity for 5 hrs daily to keep up with demand. This shouldn't be too difficult at all.

 Pv panels capable of this demand will run around $400. and you wouldn't need any battery storage if you ran the pump directly off them,however if you did wish to add some "backup" a mmpt charger and battery bank and extra PV would do it.

  Adding a homebuilt windmill will give you some flexibility, or you could go that route instead of solar panels. With a windmill, i would suggest a decent sized battery bank to help during windless times. It would also allow you to keep the tank filled better.

[finnsawyer]

Give this link a thorough read.  It gives some information about the nature of wind powered water pumpers in the discussion that you may not be aware of.  I am rather sure that a system could be configured to match the characteristics of your well.

    http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2008/3/12/16276/0478

[suitep123]

I am more than ready to admit that Hubby knows so much more about this stuff and has a much better capacity and more experience than I in understanding all of this.  I am learning quite a bit - but my thought all along has been, why is this do difficult, and why will it require such a massive system?  Maybe that's simply because that is what it takes to harness the power of the wind.  

Solar panels are not very reliable as we get quite a bit of fog and cloud cover where we are.  Hubby does want to get a couple HF panelsto be used as back up though.  

If we go with windmill - how big a battery bank are we talking?  And how big a windmill set-up will we need?  We found a couple motors that will work and we get what I think is pretty decent wind daily. Here are the links to them

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=170207835236&ssPageName=STRK:MEW
A:IT&ih=007

and

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=220008972818&ssPageName=STRK:MEW
A:IT&ih=012

if anyone is interested in checking them out to make sure they'll work.

BTW - we are toying with the idea of selling the pump and putting in a mechanical pumper mill - still not sure which way to go - we'd really like to keep this system as it is already in place and add the wind generator and solar back up in addition to the storage tank.

Thanks again guys.

Pauline