Author Topic: Lithium Batteries for RE???  (Read 8757 times)

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SamoaPower

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Lithium Batteries for RE???
« on: August 12, 2009, 09:41:44 PM »
A few weeks ago my ancient (in battery years) Trojan T-105 house batteries finally gave up the ghost at the ripe old age of eight years. I started the process of trying to find replacements, which is not an easy process on this small island in the South Pacific. I found only one 6V golf cart battery on island and it had been unattended on the shelf for five years (it had a shipping date on it). So, I started shopping on-line and of course found many sources. I was rather dismayed to find that the price had doubled since the last purchase. Okay, that's how most things are these days. Then I started on the shipping issue and was astounded by the difficulties involved this time around. Bottom line is that the cost to get just two T-105s, delivered here, would be about $500. This started me questioning the advisability of continuing on with lead acid batteries for the RE system.


I have another hobby where batteries get a lot of use - radio controlled model aircraft (RC). A few years ago I started converting all of my planes, which had previously been powered by internal combustion engines, to electric power. This is now feasible because of the development of much better batteries, motors and controllers. It occurred to me that some of the battery parameters important to this hobby parallel those of an RE system, although size and weight aren't very significant for RE. However, deep discharge, high charge and discharge rates, charge efficiency  and lifetime are.


 The past ten years or so has seen some rather remarkable advances in battery technology, most of which involve the element lithium. Various lithium chemistries have evolved to compete with the time honored lead acid and nickel based types. A major impetus for this development is probably the potential electric vehicle market, although portable electronic devices (cell phones, laptops music players etc.) are right up there.


About two years ago, one of the lithium ion types caught my eye and the more I learned, the better I liked them. The chemistry is Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4). One company, A123 Systems, claimed improved performance and safety with their "nanophosphate" technology and indeed, the specs looked great.





I've been using these cells in my planes for some time now and am quite pleased with the result as are numerous others as noted on the RC forums. One important difference between these and the more popular lithium polymer (LiPo) type is the safety factor. LiPos have a nasty reputation of bursting into flames if abused either by accident or neglecting the charge/discharge rules. I certainly don't want to burn down my house because of a battery. The A123 LiFe cells don't have these issues.


The main commercial application for the A123 LiFe cells seems to be in Dewalt tool power packs in 36V, 28V or 18V versions. A lot of RC'ers have bought these packs (frequently on eBay) and stripped out the 10 cells (36V pack) to reassemble into suitable packs for their planes, cars and boats. Using the Dewalt packs, the cost often works out to $10-12 per cell - pretty pricey but take a look at the data:











If we analyze this performance in comparison to the typical RE flooded lead acid battery, we find that it's really no contest, but there's still the cost factor to consider since it would take a bunch of cells to make a pack suitable for RE.


For comparison purposes, let's assume a simple RE lead acid battery using two Trojan T-105 6V 225Ah golf-cart batteries in series for a 12V nominal system. Now, my rule of thumb to realize a good lifetime is to limit cycle depth of discharge (DOD) to 25% of "actual" capacity on average. Notice I say actual capacity instead of rated capacity. My experience with T-105's shows an average of about 10% capacity loss per year of daily cycle service when observing the 25% rule. In reality, this means that my 225Ah rated battery is only 56 Ah initially and decreases continuously. At the end of five years, it's only 28 Ah.


The 25 deg C Cycle Life graph for the LiFe cells shows 95% remaining capacity after about three years of daily cycles at 100% DOD. However, note that this is with a 1C (C = rated capacity) discharge rate, which is much greater than we would typically see in an RE system. Almost certainly we would see a much greater cycle life at say a 0.1C discharge rate. I would fully expect to see several thousand cycles in RE usage, particularly if the DOD was a little more conservative at say, 90-95%. If you tried this with lead acid, they'd be gone in a year or less.


It's apparent that we could expect a much greater lifetime using LiFe cells in RE although they haven't been around long enough to have real examples. This will directly reduce our cost per year and mitigates the higher initial cost.


Lifetime isn't the only advantage. Look at the discharge curves and notice how flat they are with a sudden drop off right near the end of capacity. This is a more desirable characteristic than what lead acid delivers. The loads will see a near constant voltage to retain their performance. Ever see a fan continue to slow down or lights go dimmer as the lead acid battery discharges?


How about those rated discharge rates? 60A continuous, which is about 30C, from a single cell about the same size as a "D" flashlight battery, is pretty impressive. Don't try a 30C discharge with a lead acid! Of course, we would have many cells in parallel/series to make a useful pack for RE. This implies a pack discharge capability of well over 1000A (if the interconnects could take it). By the way, I've started my car with eight cells. So, they can handle very high peak loads without damage.


Charge rates for lead acid should usually be limited to about 0.1C to prevent excessive out-gassing and/or temperature rise. This limits a small battery bank being charged from a relatively high power source, even an intermittent one such as a wind turbine in high winds. These LiFe cells can be charged at 5C (50 times greater), without risk, to take advantage of more of the available energy. Some of the RC'ers do even more than that for charge times of 6-7 minutes.


Although not specified by A123 Systems, I measured charge effeciency at better than 95%. We could only wish for this in lead acid. This means better utilization of available energy and, of course, no out-gassing and little generated heat.


To test these cells in a RE environment, I took four of my 4-cell packs and connected them in parallel to give a rated capacity of 9.2 Ah. With a nominal cell voltage of 3.3V, a 4-cell series pack has a nominal voltage of 13.2V, which is fine for a 12V RE system. They are charged to a maximum voltage of 14.4V (3.6V/cell), which also fits okay. Other lithium chemistries have a nominal cell voltage of 3.6-3.7V and charge to 4.2V per cell, which doesn't work out too well for conventional RE systems. In RC, we designate our packs with a series-parallel label such as 4S1P. When four of these series packs are paralleled it effectively becomes a 4S4P pack for a total of 16 cells.


 I installed this pack in my solar system along with a Xantrex C-40 controller. The bulk voltage was set at 14.4V and the float at 14.0V, which are somewhat different than the lead acid settings. The 3-stage charging of the C-40 is essentially of the "constant-current constant-voltage" (CCCV) type, which is what LiFe likes. Yes, it's not really constant-current but the array output is less than the max allowable charge current of the battery, so all is okay. The loads are ceiling fans, 40W fluorescent lights, CFL lights and LED night lights (60).


One disadvantage of the Lithium ion batteries is their requirement for strictly controlled voltage limits during both charge and discharge. The LiFe type seems a bit more tolerant to minor abuse of these limits. Some of the other lithium types can be ruined easily if the limits, either high or low, are exceeded. To protect the low voltage limit I connected another C-40 for low voltage load disconnect. Also, the voltage balance between cells in a series string is critical. This implies that a "Battery Management System" (BMS) electronic module is needed for unattended operation. A number of these have been developed for the electric bike and scooter market.


I've run the system for a month with no issues other than the small capacity. The results were so encouraging that I went ahead and bought 100 cells from eBay. These are from a Hong Kong supplier who removes them from new Dewalt packs just as I did for my RC packs. The cost works out to $4.25 per cell. The shipping by mail isn't cheap at $120 so the total cost per cell is $5.45 delivered here. Interestingly enough, the $545 total isn't much different than that for the T-105s.


I will use 96 of these cells to make a 4S24P pack of 55.2 Ah capacity, which is about equivalent to two T-105s at 25% capacity. They will be interconnected in a parallel-series configuration rather than series-parallel to allow for cell balancing. The estimated weight of the assembled pack will be about 16 lb compared to the T-105s at 125 lb. The pack size works out to be 3" x 12" x 8", obviously much smaller than the lead acid. Since there is no out-gassing, there are no issues to having them inside. I am also looking forward to zero maintenance - no checking and adding water, no messy cleaning, no specific gravity testing and no manual equalizing. I will post further about the pack construction and the BMS module I've designed.


Are lithium batteries suitable for RE???

In my estimation and circumstance, YES indeed!


Pro:

The expected longevity of LiFe should make the cost per year significantly less than lead acid in my circumstances.

High charge and discharge rate capability.

Superior discharge characteristics.

Low internal resistance.

High charge effeciency.

High DOD.

No out-gassing.

Safe.

Small size and weight.

Zero maintenance.

Shipping by mail.


Con:

Initial cost.

Need to be assembled into a pack.

BMS required.

« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 09:41:44 PM by (unknown) »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Lithium Batteries for RE???
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2009, 05:37:17 PM »
Sounds good to me.  Some thoughts:


I think the price point is a tad high so far for those of us who don't have a major penalty getting lead-acids shipped to us.  This might change - either for these or other advanced lithium cells - as electric auto production ramps up.


I'd be inclined to install these outside the house sufficiently to produce a firebreak.  Especially if I were rebuilding the packs or purchasing from somebody who is, rather than buying UL-approved assemblies and controllers.  The insurance company would be happy to avoid paying off if a fire could be blamed - even falsely - on the batteries.


The limit on full-charge voltage and lack of the lead-acid's outgassing to consume excess power on overcharge RELATIVELY safely makes the dump load and controller critical in a wind system.  It has to handle anything the mill might put out in a storm, rather than allowing the batteries (which might be fully charged by the time the peak of the storm hits) to disastrously overcharge on gusts.

« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 05:37:17 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

altosack

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Re: Lithium Batteries for RE???
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2009, 05:47:59 PM »
Hello SamoaPower,


It's good to hear from you again; I haven't seen any posts/comments from you in quite a while. I've missed hearing from you, someone who knows about batteries and is really determined to do whatever it takes to make each detail of their system work the best that it possibly can.


Sorry, I don't really have anything to add to your thread; however, I would like to apologize for something that happened several years ago that I re-read while searching for something a week or so ago. You will probably remember.


I had stated that neither the TriStar (which I own) nor the C-40 (which I don't own, but I have installed a couple) did proper 3-stage charging while in divert mode. This is true of the TriStar, but just as you said, not true for the C-40. After I realized my mistake a while later after reviewing the manual, I never took the trouble to post again to tell you that I was wrong. I'm doing it now.


Best Regards,

Dave Voss

« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 05:47:59 PM by altosack »

commanda

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Re: Lithium Batteries for RE???
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2009, 06:18:31 PM »
I started this thread 12 months ago.


http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2008/7/29/7516/08280


I've been using Thunder Sky LiFePO4 in my electric scooter for (almost) a year now, and have 8 x 90 AHr cells for a 12 volt 180 AHr setup for my offgrid caravan arriving any day now.


Amanda

« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 06:18:31 PM by commanda »

zeusmorg

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Re: Lithium Batteries for RE???
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2009, 07:18:53 PM »
 It looks like in your situation that the Li-fe-po4 batteries are a good choice. Sometimes shipping heavy items or bulky items adds such an additional cost factor that other options become viable.


 In most situations however if good quality deep discharge lead acids are available locally, the overall cost factors still weigh towards lead acids in a stationary power storage system. It is nice to see the costs of lithiums dropping though!


 I am concerned that you've undersized your storage system a bit, I'd love to hear how it does in a real world application.

« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 07:18:53 PM by zeusmorg »

taylorp035

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Re: Lithium Batteries for RE???
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2009, 08:32:33 PM »
I agree with every word you said.  I even saw the 100 packs on ebay a few weeks ago.


Having worked with these cells myself for two years with my many combat robots in a 3s2p and 3s3p configuration, I found the balancing was usually the hardest thing to do, especially when done by hand.  If you have a pre-made balancer and take the time to put in balancing wires, everything should run smoothly.


One thing you must remember is to NEVER over charge these cells.  3.6-3.7 should be your peak voltage.  If the cells go past 4v per cell, damage starts to occur.  I once charged a pack to 5.3v per cell, and the next week the pressure inside of the cells broke the aluminum seals / pressure release mechanism on every single cell.  Now of course I was pulling 200 amps out of the 3s2p pack for about 1.5 minutes.


For discharge, 2v per cell is the minimum.  This is generally hard to do, since your inverter would shut off.  I once ran some cells down to 0.6 per cell.  Two days later they only held 25% of their rated capacity.


I would think the charging efficiency and depth of charge are major selling points.  Also the life span in a RE system will last a minimum of 7,000 cycles, which then you are at 80%.  More likely, the cells will go to the ten's of thousands of cycles before you hit 80%.

You also should remember that these cells are laser welded together so less air can corrode the lithium, unlike a laptop cell which will loose 50% in 18 months.


It would be awesome if everyday people could get their hands on the newer flat cells for cars which hold many more amp hours.


So as you concluded, these would be good for a RE system and I would personally use them if I was going off the grid.  The initial price may be high, but the pay off would come in the long run, plus you wouldn't have to worry about sulfation or hydrogen gas or cold temps.


 

« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 08:32:33 PM by taylorp035 »

frackers

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Re: Lithium Batteries for RE???
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2009, 10:23:37 PM »
I take it you are aiming at a 12 volt system which is a shame as if you were to go to 24 volts then the Maxim DS2726 Li+ Cell Protector IC would be of interest.


This handles from 5 to 10 cells and with a pair of external p-channel FETs does charging limiting, charge balancing across cells and discharge limiting by current and voltage.


Not to be relied on as the main solution for a controller for charging but very useful to prevent those expensive bangs...

« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 10:23:37 PM by frackers »
Robin Down Under (Or Are You Up Over)

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Re: Lithium Batteries for RE???
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2009, 11:18:48 PM »
I too had a go with some LiFePo4 cells. Mine were blue headway screw-top 10Ah cells. 8 of them. Balancing was a complete pain. Only used them a few times. Was balancing by hand with power resistors. I now have a very complete respect for any battery tech which will sort itself out (self-balance).

I know people use BMS' with these and would have to say it's the only way to go IMO. I use eneloops now. Really happy with them
« Last Edit: August 12, 2009, 11:18:48 PM by independent »

DamonHD

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Re: Lithium Batteries for RE???
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2009, 01:18:51 PM »
Valence.com reminded me of their existence a few days ago and of its drop-in 12V Lead-Acid-replacement Li batteries.  Same physical shape and same charging voltages (etc), though (for example) Outback and MorningStar wouldn't confirm that the Valence batteries would work with their charge algorithms and vice versa.


Plus, when I last asked, Valence wasn't prepared to ship 1-off to a 'non-professional' like me, and no unit prices are listed on their site that I could find.


But a combo of them with an otherwise bog-standard 12V (or 48V) RE system would be great for me: 'standard' circuits, smaller, lighter, higher capacity, many more discharge cycles and a greater safe depth of discharge so far as I can tell.


I'd use them either for my off-grid system as a replacement for my tiny 12V 40Ah battery, or have ~10kWh of them along with an SMA 'backup blocker' in conjunction with my grid-tie solar PV to act as a whole-house UPS, in both cases taking a small space and with no maintenance and relatively safe with small children around.


Rgds


Damon

« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 01:18:51 PM by DamonHD »
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SamoaPower

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Re: Lithium Batteries for RE???
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2009, 02:09:45 PM »
ULR,

I appreciate your comments.


Yes, the initial cost will discourage many but it may work out that the long term cost will actually be less for anyone, although it may take ten years to see it. I believe a large number of people only get 3-4 years from their lead acid because of the way they mistreat them.


I'd like to believe the price will be coming down but have my doubts after hearing GM's recently announced price of $40k for the Chevy Volt.


Well taken point about insurance companies.


Yes, a robust BMS is a must. I intend to include some redundancy in mine.

« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 02:09:45 PM by SamoaPower »

SamoaPower

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Re: Lithium Batteries for RE???
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2009, 02:26:16 PM »
Dave,


Apology accepted. Yes, I do remember the occasion. Glad you got it sorted out.


I haven't been doing nearly as much with RE as I would like because of some health issues. I still do lurk about however.

« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 02:26:16 PM by SamoaPower »

SamoaPower

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Re: Lithium Batteries for RE???
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2009, 02:44:14 PM »
Hi Amanda,


Sorry I missed your post about LiFe. Good stuff.


I'm not familiar with the Thunder Sky cells. How do they compare with the A123?


I've noticed that during the past year or so, a number of new entries in the LiFe market place, mostly from China. Tests by some of the RC community haven't shown them to be superior to the A123 type yet.


I'd be interested in hearing more about your caravan setup.

« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 02:44:14 PM by SamoaPower »

SamoaPower

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Re: Lithium Batteries for RE???
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2009, 03:15:10 PM »
Zeusmorg,


I'm mainly concerned about my running costs (cost per year) over the long term. It'll take quite a few years to see how it pans out.


As I pointed out, longevity is only part of the issue. Performance is also significant.


With my current loads, I only use about 50-60 Ah per day. Only about half of this needs to come from the battery at night. Obviously, this is not a whole house system. The proposed 55 Ah lithium pack should handle this nicely. If I want to add more load, I'll add more battery.

« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 03:15:10 PM by SamoaPower »

commanda

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Re: Lithium Batteries for RE???
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2009, 03:36:42 PM »
Samoa,


The A123 cells are targeted at the high-performance EV market, with very high discharge rates. Check out KillaCycle if you want to see the fastest way ever to usefully flatten a battery. You pay a premium for this feature.


The Thundersky cells are much more conservative (3C continuous discharge). The prismatic (brick) shape with screw terminals on top makes them easy to handle.


Here in Australia, availability of the TS cells is good. A number of EV type companies bring them in on indent. I get mine through:

http://thebackshed.com/foundryandfibreglass/


My current order is 8 * 90AHr cells (2.3 KWhrs) for AU$1405. This includes the proper inter-connects, and delivery to my place of work.


I'll be doing a full diary writeup on this setup, including circuit diagrams of the BMS, charge control, LVC (low voltage something or other), etc. Derived from my scooter setup which has been working really well for quite a while now.


Amanda

« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 03:36:42 PM by commanda »

SamoaPower

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Re: Lithium Batteries for RE???
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2009, 03:53:25 PM »
Taylorp035,


Many thanks for the comments and I agree with most.


I have about a dozen RC packs and wouldn't build one without balancing taps. I balance them often but I and others have found that after 10-15 break-in cycles where they are balanced each time, they then hold their balance quite well. Much better than LiPos. I do use a balancing type charger and have designed the BMS for the larger pack to balance automatically on every cycle.


I sure hope you're right about the cycle life for use in RE. If so, I may not be around to see the end of their life.

« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 03:53:25 PM by SamoaPower »

OuttaSight

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Re: Lithium Batteries for RE???
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2009, 10:09:34 AM »
Those U-Charge XP packs look ideal for RE use.



Seems like the Morningstar MPPT-15 controllers I have would be ok.  I have the PC interface so can custom program all the set points, timers and limits for charging.



The XP packs need an external BMC I think.  The RT ones don't but can't put out / accept as much current as I need for a 1kW invertor (30A discharge limit and 20A charge limit).  I've got about 27A of solar and the 24V invertor can draw up to about 50A on full load.



The fact that you wouldn't have to worry about partial charge rot and running them flat (well at least to the LVD threshold of the invertor) every day is a big plus as I've got 220Ah of cheap lead now and I've half killed them inside of a year of 50% DoD cycles.

« Last Edit: August 14, 2009, 10:09:34 AM by OuttaSight »

phil b

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Re: Lithium Batteries for RE???
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2009, 12:48:46 PM »
The limiting factor for most folks in the US is the commute distance. In my case, I travel 62 miles (100km) per day at an avg. speed of 60 mph. Lead acid batteries are out of the question. They would require frequent replacement.


Amanda...I'll be looking forward to seeing your "full diary writeup" on this lithium battery setup. A DYI charger is the missing link. IMHO :)

« Last Edit: August 14, 2009, 12:48:46 PM by phil b »
Phil

taylorp035

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Re: Lithium Batteries for RE???
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2009, 02:56:11 PM »
Also, most lithium cells in laptops are rated on a 100% discharge basis, meaning a 30% discharge and a 70% discharge add together to make 1 cycle.  I don't know if that is how A123 cells are rated, but I am sure the cells will last long enough.  I have seen cells get charged in 7-8 minutes for 400+ cycles and still have over 90% capacity left.


The fastest I have ever seen the cells charged with no damage would be 4 minutes and 30 seconds to 90+ %.  It seems like the cells give off very little heat.


Good luck with your system.

« Last Edit: August 14, 2009, 02:56:11 PM by taylorp035 »

independent

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Re: Lithium Batteries for RE???
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2009, 03:12:11 PM »
Lithium ion and Lithium Polymer are a different beast to Lithium Iron Phosphate. Different cell nominal voltage too, 3.3v vs 3.6 or 3.7 for laptop cells.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2009, 03:12:11 PM by independent »

electrak

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Re: Lithium Batteries for RE???
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2009, 06:55:18 PM »
I'm wondering how these would hold up to being charged from an engine driven shunt regulated PMA, as of say a small motorcycle, I am in need of a new battery for a KLR650, it has a shunt regulator that is set for about 14 volts and needs less than 100 amps to start, I have jumped it from 12ga wire,

Discharge would be just the starter and lights before starting, I may have to try this out.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2009, 06:55:18 PM by electrak »

taylorp035

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Re: Lithium Batteries for RE???
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2009, 07:03:36 PM »
A simple 4s pack would suffice for the job, but the voltage would drop to less than 10 volts.  A 4s2p pack would supply 100 amps until the cells are empty with no overheating issues.  At 30c, a 4.6 ah pack could supply 138 amps for 2 minutes and 240+ amps for 10 seconds.  I have started my 4-wheeler with a 3 cells, so I imagine 4 would work just fine for your motorcycle.  The only issue is regulating the charging so you don't ruin the cells.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2009, 07:03:36 PM by taylorp035 »

taylorp035

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Re: Lithium Batteries for RE???
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2009, 07:07:13 PM »
Also, as for charging, the cells are happy when charged at less than 10 amps.  Any higher amperage requires you watching the voltage the entire time as they charge.  Try it out and tell us the results, i would like to see what happens.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2009, 07:07:13 PM by taylorp035 »

taylorp035

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Re: Lithium Batteries for RE???
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2009, 07:18:27 PM »
My last idea for the cells is to wire them up in parallel first and then series.  This way the balancing will be less of an issue and easier to control if there is a problem.

My 3s3p battlebot suffered from series wiring and ended up with only 4.5 ah out of a possible 6.9 ah.  My next robot had 3s2p pack and I wired it in parallel first.  The pack would put out 4.5 ah of 4.6 ah every time.


Sometimes the cells will die prematurely, but usually this is due to overheating the cells when soldering.  Underneath the top of the cell is some plastic.  This can be melted if you apply too much heat for too long.  Also, if you smell something like spray paint from the cells, you know one of them has exploded and is now no good.

« Last Edit: August 14, 2009, 07:18:27 PM by taylorp035 »

electrak

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Re: Lithium Batteries for RE???
« Reply #23 on: August 15, 2009, 06:38:14 AM »
I have 14A max ( at 7000rpm) minus headlight( 65 watts, coil,?, and what ever else gets used up.

I'll give it a try 4S2P sounds like a start.

how well do they hold up to long term undercharge? In 11 years I have gone through 5 batteries, and never had to add water.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2009, 06:38:14 AM by electrak »

zeusmorg

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Re: Lithium Batteries for RE???
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2009, 10:00:33 PM »
 The only reliable way I see to use Lithiums for RE is to use a battery management system.(BMS) This ensures that the batteries don't overcharge, are balanced, and don't undercharge, or discharge too fast.


 I just recently purchased a Li-Fe-Po4 pack for my recumbent electric bike project, and it includes both a a BMS and a charger.Hopefully this will cure my weight and size problems for onboard power storage. Once I get it installed I'll be including the testing and results in my diary on it.


 In a weight considered application such as the bike, Lithiums are far superior to any other storage solution. Currently I am using low capacity Ni-cads.the weight reduction will go from the current approx.48 lbs down to 31 lbs (w bms) and a smaller pack size too! I'll also have more Ah/hr capacity.

« Last Edit: August 15, 2009, 10:00:33 PM by zeusmorg »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Lithium Batteries for RE???
« Reply #25 on: August 17, 2009, 07:35:45 PM »
I hear that the limits to laptop/cellphone lithium are essentially the oxidation of one of the electrodes.  The capacity is proportional to the length of time since the battery was assembled, not to the number of cycles it has been through (provided it wasn't discharged all the way down to dead-flat).


Not sure if this is correct ...

« Last Edit: August 17, 2009, 07:35:45 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

zeusmorg

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Re: Lithium Batteries for RE???
« Reply #26 on: August 17, 2009, 08:00:53 PM »
 Most rechargeable lithium batteries are formulated LiCoO2 this is your typical laptop and cell phone lithiums. They do have a "shelf life" problem as they begin to degenerate from time or manufacture more so than from recharge cycles.This happens with this formulation in as little as 6 months.


 The LiFePo and LiFePo4 formulations are much better and have a much longer "shelf life" or calendar life. The formulation is also much safer as they are much less prone to explosions. Manufacturing processes have also improved with this type of cell allowing them to be sealed better. Storage temperatures can also affect shelf life. lower temperatures allow them to maintain a better shelf life.


 Also long term storage at 40% SOC(an unused cell) will last longer. So basically, If you have a laptop that you use mainly on a/c power, dis-charge the battery to around 40% and refrigerate it until you need it for use. How all this will apply to RE situations I really don't know at this point. It's unclear (to me) whether cycled batteries last longer at lower temperatures. They definitely do not like high temperatures though! I would probably try to maintain them at lower temperatures (75f to 40f) out of any sun.

« Last Edit: August 17, 2009, 08:00:53 PM by zeusmorg »

SamoaPower

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Re: Lithium Batteries for RE???
« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2009, 12:52:24 PM »
electrak,


You bring up a good point about chronic undercharge which is really the big lead acid killer. It seems that more people are concerned about overcharge, which in moderation, is actually healthy for lead acid. I really have to wonder about those folks with giant batteries and modest charge sources. Fortunately, long term or chronic undercharge is not an issue for LiFe. In fact, 50% SOC is recommended for storage. This would kill a lead acid.


Another connected topic I neglected to mention in my initial post is the very low self-discharge of LiFe. Some are not too concerned about small parasitic loads on their lead acid batteries, reasoning that they are comparable to the self-discharge rate. With LiFe we should pay attention to these.


I see no reason why a 4S2P LiFe pack with BMS wouldn't work out well for you.

« Last Edit: August 18, 2009, 12:52:24 PM by SamoaPower »

OuttaSight

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Re: Lithium Batteries for RE???
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2009, 04:56:34 AM »
I tried contacting Valence last week but got the polite "we don't sell to the public" reply.  On their application specification form they don't even mention RE...


They seem preoccupied with trying to get a big EV deal with a car maker.  Can't argue with that, that market is much bigger than the off-grid RE market but then why go to the trouble of marketing a "drop-in replacement" for a 12V lead acid Group 24 boat battery on your web site if you aren't going to sell them to people who actually buy Group 24 boat batteries.


Maybe if enough people ask them...

« Last Edit: August 20, 2009, 04:56:34 AM by OuttaSight »

electrak

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Re: Lithium Batteries for RE???
« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2009, 05:26:00 AM »
My guess is if some company wanted 5-10,000 units they may see to them, they just don't want to see direct.  So just need to find a wholesaler.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2009, 05:26:00 AM by electrak »

SamoaPower

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Re: Lithium Batteries for RE???
« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2009, 02:06:13 PM »
Here's an interesting quote from an All-Battery.com email ad.


"Comparing Amp-hour ratings between PbA and LiFePO4 is tough. Peukert's exponent explains the capacity expected from a PbA cell at given discharge currents. The equation is:


I^x * t = Ah


I = current discharged


x = exponent


t = time


Ah = total Ah's


Most PbA cells have a Peukert's exponent rating between 1.3 and 1.6. Good PbA cells have an exponent the gets closer to 1.15. We can't assign this exponent to LiFePO4 because of chemistry differences, but an approximation of the Peukert's exponent for comparison would be 1.05 for LiFePO4. As an example, a 20Ah LiFePO4 cell will produce approximately as much or more power as a 50Ah PbA cell at the same rated voltage."

« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 02:06:13 PM by SamoaPower »

SnickersFS

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Re: Lithium Batteries for RE???
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2009, 10:35:28 PM »
I have been reading about the A123 batteries.

They now offer a new design called the Prismatic with 20AH rating.


There is another manufacturer not yet mentioned in this thread.

AltairNano


They offer a nanotech battery with no carbon, using Lithium Titanate.

100% DOD

Available in 11AH and 50AH storage capacities.

Cycles @ C10 are 9,000


These batteries are featured in Phoenix Motors SUT's and SUV's,

Giving the vehicles a range of 250 miles if you upgrade of course.


Any schematics for an A123 BMS?


SnickersFS

« Last Edit: November 15, 2009, 10:35:28 PM by SnickersFS »

SamoaPower

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Re: Lithium Batteries for RE???
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2009, 12:01:31 PM »
Thanks for the comments.


I'm afraid the AltairNano cells don't have much to offer compared to The A123 LiFePO4 cells unless it is price, which I don't know. With their much lower cell voltage (a pack needs more cells) and not very flat discharge curves, they seem to be lacking. What really turned me off was when I saw it used a flamable electrolyte. No thanks.


I've been using the 96 cell 24P4S 56Ah A123 Pack for over two months now and am absolutely delighted. The 17lb pack is mounted flat against the wall on a small shelf - it only sticks out about three inches. Now, I'm not giving up substantial floor space as I did with the lead acid.


Electrically, it has performed flawlessly with zero negative surprises. I've been running about 80% DOD which has been adequate for my needs. I built a monitor using eight DPM's (Digital Panel Meters) which allow me to see individual cell voltages (4), pack voltage, source current, battery current and load current simultaneously. Cost about $50. I also keep an eye on pack temperature with a digital thermometer and have yet to see ANY temperature rise over ambient with charge/discharge currents of 25A.


I've lost some of the urgency in getting the BMS built since I've been monitoring their performance pretty closly. Ive only applied a top-off balancing charge a few times since the rumor of A123 cells holding balance well is true. They usually stay within 20mV of each other. I will continue on with the BMS however, for truely unattended operation.


See http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2009/8/26/71752/6793 for BMS schematics in pieces. Most has been tested.

« Last Edit: November 17, 2009, 12:01:31 PM by SamoaPower »