Author Topic: Any energy in this creek? (Read 5830 times)

Speo · « **on:** August 15, 2005, 02:47:56 AM »

What do you think about this creek, is there any energy that I could capture there?

The little creek [beware on dialup LARGE photos]

As you can see, there is not much head. What would be the best set-up to use ? I will be happy with any amount of power I could get.

Thanks,

Speo.

drdongle · « **Reply #1 on:** August 15, 2005, 05:30:15 AM »

The answer is a big YES you could get gobs of power. Have you found out the GPM of it? can you arrange for it to be damned? wish I had this in my back yard...........

Bruce S · « **Reply #2 on:** August 15, 2005, 07:25:08 AM »

Speo;

I'm thinking that if this creek runs like this all year long, not just during wet weather, then you are a very lucky person.

If you're not into building a dam then there was on here a post about using a old trolling motor prop. You can run a prop all the way down to a flow rate of 6 gpm and still get decent outputs.

Wanna trade places?

How much of that are do you have available?

You could even runn several turbine's to make maximum use of the available area.

Bruce S

Experimental · « **Reply #3 on:** August 15, 2005, 08:37:30 AM »

WOW, Speo,

Now that is a real creek !!

And as already stated, there is a lot of potential there, and I,m not really into Hydro -- but with that in my back yard, I certainly would be!!

There are others on this forum that I,m sure will give you info, as I,m not knowledgeable on hydro,I won,t try, but take a look in the Hydro section,if you haven,t already ...

I,m full of envy, Bill H.....

Speo · « **Reply #4 on:** August 15, 2005, 05:48:23 PM »

Thanks for the input.

I have no ideea about what the GPM is. How can I figure that out ?

There is no way I can build a dam here (tough-tough-tough legislation). On the other hand, if can build ... "something" ..., that can be easily installed and uninstalled...I would deffinately go for it. I am thinking at something built on the shore(I am allowed to build on the shore but not in the water) and something else (a kind of dam) that could be easily attached to that and then detached.

Any ideeas are welcomed.

Thanks,

Speo

Speo · « **Reply #5 on:** August 15, 2005, 05:55:38 PM »

Yes, the creek runs like this all year long. It's never getting lower that that.

I saw the posting about the trolling motor, and it's a good alternative.

What do you mean by "How much of that are do you have available"?

Thanks for the reply Bruce,

Speo.

Speo · « **Reply #6 on:** August 15, 2005, 05:59:01 PM »

Thanks for the input Bill,

What I don't get is that all the formulas for calculationg tha available power is direct proportional with the "head", which in my case it's almost zero, so, based on this ... the power I can get is... zero...?

Speo

electrondady1 · « **Reply #7 on:** August 15, 2005, 07:18:35 PM »

why not make a sort of paddle wheel that you could support on that concrete.

pyrocasto · « **Reply #8 on:** August 15, 2005, 07:51:57 PM »

If you cant dam it, can you run a pipe from up far? You need at least a little drop for this to be effective at all though.

How much of the creek do you have on your land?

Speo · « **Reply #9 on:** August 15, 2005, 08:12:58 PM »

I can run a pipe, but not from too far as I will cross sombody else's property.

I have roughly 80 feet of the creek on my land. Picture 2543 and 2901 are taken approximately from the same spot, one uphill, and the other downhill and that's the whole property. I know it's small, but it's one of the biggest ones around.

Thanks,

Speo

Speo · « **Reply #10 on:** August 15, 2005, 08:23:32 PM »

One of my neighburs has one, a pretty big one, but he complains that he does not get much power out of it.

The truth is that when I saw it I tought that it has a pretty poor design. It was similar with a 6 feet bicycle wheel with lots of rectangula pieces of steel attached on the cirumference.

In my opinion there shouldn't be rectangles, but some kids of cups, or those rectangles to be between two paralel discs "to keep" the water from sliping on sides and underneath.

Thanks,

Speo

DanG · « **Reply #11 on:** August 15, 2005, 10:34:46 PM »

By the look of the retaining wall, the water level drop between 1st and last picture, and all the snags and slash beached up on the opposite bank you've got to be able to pull it out, like a boat hoist, when cloud bursts or snowmelt blah blah get the creek angry...

DanG · « **Reply #12 on:** August 15, 2005, 10:46:15 PM »

ack - posted too early... I mean it looks like whole trees will be going zoomy down that flume after storms pass through...

How about a modified 'semi' gate, like half of what the 1800's canals used - that will hinge (at rest) downstream and flat against the retaining wall. When pivoted out it gets the chute sides set up for a cupped wheel going for tourqe and not rpm, and impounds a bit more water above - not going for dam pool, just concentrator funnel?

drdongle · « **Reply #13 on:** August 16, 2005, 05:10:27 AM »

Other than some version of the trolling motor suggestion, the simplest would be an undershot wheel suspended between a short tower on either side ( sounds like that may be what your neighbor did). As far as the GPM the usual method is to determine the cross section of the stream, then time a small object between two points a known distance apart and then calculate the GPM with a formula I don't have right at hand.

Some one else here may have that info.

ghurd · « **Reply #14 on:** August 16, 2005, 08:36:26 AM »

His problem may well be the generator, instead of the water wheel.

I am just saying it is probably not very well matched to the operation, if it is anything like most of what I see in real life.

G-

Experimental · « **Reply #15 on:** August 16, 2005, 10:24:15 AM »

I agree with Gurd on this Speo-- you have so much quantity of water, that is power !!

The paddle wheel with improvements, such as cups, will work better, but the use of a generator head, with large neos, will produce power at slower speeds than conventional generators !!

I would guess, your neighbor is not useing a PMA (permanent magnet alternator)that can produce, substantial power at low RPM..

If that stream is always running like in those pics, you have real potential there, and much easier to capture that power than when working with wind !!

Look at the PMAs ... Good day, Bill H......

Speo · « **Reply #16 on:** August 16, 2005, 07:39:06 PM »

That's a good way to figure out the GPM.

Don't worry about the formula, I will figure it out starting from the fact that the volume of water equals the area of the section of the creek times the distance traveled by the small floating object in one second.

Thanks for the tip.

Speo

Speo · « **Reply #17 on:** August 16, 2005, 07:55:31 PM »

You might be right.

He tried 2 different generators:

a car alternator geared to achieve high RPM
a PM motor 24V at 11000 RPM (that's right, eleven thousands)

He did not make any calculations or measurements, he just built it and "tried to directly light a car bulb". He did not tried to charge a battery bank, neither he measured the output (RPM/V/A). He just mentioned that the wheel which is heavy steel made was spinning pretty fast, but when he tried to light the bulb, it just slowed down and the bulb did not light.

Maybe with a better design/setup I will be able to get something out of this creek.

Thanks for the input,

Speo

Speo · « **Reply #18 on:** August 16, 2005, 08:15:21 PM »

"whole trees will be going zoomy down that flume "

You are right, that's a big concern.

The "'semi' gate" ideea sounds interestig, I will definitely give it some tought.

Thanks,

Speo

ghurd · « **Reply #19 on:** August 17, 2005, 10:41:49 AM »

Yikes! That is about as bad as it gets!

You should be able to do much better quite easily.

G-

Experimental · « **Reply #20 on:** August 17, 2005, 11:41:02 AM »

Hi Speo,

If you are into building a gen -- I would suggest any twin rotor design, as Hugh Piggot,s designs.. Otherpower (top of page) has the plan book, for $20..

Any of these designs, usually start charging at about 200rpm..

With a battery bank, and a "dump load controller", you would be in business!!

If you are not into building one, there are several folks on this forum that might sell you one --Dan B, comes to mind first, and kits are offered (windstuff now) !!

Most of us, wish for what you have, in your back yard -- Have at it, and post progress pics, Bill H.....

JavaMoose · « **Reply #21 on:** August 17, 2005, 05:22:46 PM »

Linky no worky...I was really hoping to see this stream after all the great responses you received!

Speo · « **Reply #22 on:** August 17, 2005, 07:01:42 PM »

The first link does not work anymore, please check this one.

Sorry, but my ISP changed my IP.

Speo

Speo · « **Reply #23 on:** August 17, 2005, 07:04:11 PM »

Linky worky, but movedy here

Speo

Speo · « **Reply #24 on:** August 17, 2005, 07:23:39 PM »

I got Hugh's plans few months ago and studied them. My big concearn is not the generator but the wheel. I didn't see any plans for such a wheel, I have no ideea about the cups angles...

I'm thinking to start small:

- I have a couple of Ameteks (20V, 24V, 30V at low RPM), and I was thinking to build a wheel and see if it can handle those Ameteks

- If it can handle my Ameteks, I will build a generator using neos.

- Based on the necessary mecanical maintenance of the wheel I will go for a bigger wheel

- My biggest problem now (after you guys convinced me that there is some power available) is the wheel (design, materials to use...)

Thanks,

Speo

Gary D · « **Reply #25 on:** August 17, 2005, 09:17:37 PM »

You might want to look at a sample page for ideas...

A simple plywood wheel with paddles in a log flume type setup could be built in a weekend. for the flume, just use 1 by 12 pine boards for the bottom and sides, and 2x4's to hold it together.

A shaft with pillow bearings and a bunch of different pulley sizes for your amteck and wheel shaft plus a v belt and adjustments and it should crank out a few amps (depends on how much water you divert). Might give you an idea of the power you could get from x ammount of water (and it's moveable).

For a professional waterwheel, a plan for a 7 footer can be bought (you'd need to halve the sizes approx.) at the following link... this is a sample page for the plans...(look at the curves in the pic. lower left supposedly gives about a 6-7 % increase in power)if I typed the link properly... Gary D.

http://www.waterwheelfactory.com/samplepage.htm

Experimental · « **Reply #26 on:** August 17, 2005, 09:19:11 PM »

Speo,

The reason I recommend the dual rotor design, is because they don,t cog -- they turn very easy and develop power at very low rpm !!

If you can, i would experiment with the neighbors wheel -- i think it,s failure to produce power, was because of the huge "gearing" up, to turn a conventional alternator !!

Best of luck to you -- by the way, where are you located?? Bill H.......

Speo · « **Reply #27 on:** August 17, 2005, 10:11:20 PM »

OK, I got the idea with the dual rotor.

Unfortunately, the neighbour's wheel is not functional any more, so we can't use it for testing. The wheel felt into the creek during some flooding in April. They took it out, but didn't rebuilt the whole system.

I'm located in Mississauga/Toronto, but the place in the pictures (my parent's cottage) is located in Eastern Europe, in Romania.

Thanks for the wishes,

Speo

ghurd · « **Reply #28 on:** August 18, 2005, 07:56:02 AM »

Isn't that is an over shot wheel?

For an under shot, I don't think I would spend too much effort on the blade, paddle, or cup design. Or complicated manufacturing of them.

If a complicated and hard to make 'cups' increase efficiency by 10%, I would just make flat 'blades' 10% wider. Simple plywood.

Simple blades will be easier to replace when a piece of firewood or a stray log gets tangled in the wheel.

Maybe it would be a reasonable idea to make simple blades the weakest link? Allowing a blade to break off during a flood, instead of distroying the whole thing.

G-

french town · « **Reply #29 on:** August 18, 2005, 09:07:31 AM »

speo, I HAVE A CREEK LIKE THIS BUT HAVE A WINTER PROBLEM THE CREEK CAN RISE 8 TO 10 FT. ANY HOW I DID SOME WORK ON A WHEEL 7FT DIA 4FT WIDE, WAS HOPING TO GET 10 RPM, I USED A GARDEN TRACTOR TRANS FOR A SPEED INCREASER TO DRIVE A PM ALT, WHAT I LEARNED WAS THAT THE POWER NEEDED TO TURN THE TRANS WAS UNREAL, I COULD STALL THE WHEEL BY GRABING THE ALT PULLY.

i ENDED UP WITH 6 RPM NO LOAD AND WITH A LOAD 4 RPM THE LOAD WAS A 40W 12V BULB. IT DID LIGHT. FROM THIS TRIAL I LEARNED THAT SPEED INCREASERS WITH THIS SET UP IS NOT THE WAY TO GO, OTHER POSTINGS ARE RIGHT, LOW RPM GENNYS,

MY NEXT ATEMPT WILL BE A WHEEL (UNDER SHOT) 6FT DIA 6FT WIDE 8 BLADES OR PAD. I PLAN TO HINGE THE BLADES SO THAT AT 90 DEG TO THE WATER THEY SWING TOWARDS THE AXEL,(MUCH POWER IS NEEDED TO RAISE THE BLADES OUT OF THE WATER)IAM GOING WITH A SMALLER DIA TO INCREASE THE RPM AND WIDER TO INCREASE THE TOURQUE. THE WHOLE THING WILL BE MOUNTED ON 8IN PVC PIPE AS FLOATS.

SOME SPEED INCREASING WILL BE NEEDED, LOOKING TO GET 300W FOR BATT CHARGING,

ALSO I FOUND THAT CLOSING THE SIDES OF THE BLADES DID INCREASE THE POWER, LOOKS LIKE SOME FUNNELING IS GOING ON, DONOT THINK CURVED BLADES WILL HELP, AS WATER DOSENOT COMPRESS AND WHEN THE BLADE IS IN THE WATER IT READS AS FLAT. (I THINK)

I KNOW THAT I HAVE MUCH MORE TO LEARN AND THAT THE NEXT TRY WILL GENERATE INFO FOR YET ANOTHER TRY.

HOPE THIS HELPS SOME. AH THE WONDERFUL WET WORLD OF HYDRO.

NEVER STOP TRYING (GETER DONE)

TomW · « **Reply #30 on:** August 18, 2005, 09:41:14 AM »

french town;

Umm, why are you SHOUTING?

Please push the CAPS LOCK key over on the left side of your keyboard before posting here. All CAPS is considered shouting and rather rude online. Just a friendly heads up.

T

Gary D · « **Reply #31 on:** August 18, 2005, 01:08:07 PM »

I absolutely agree Ghurd. There are those that are consumed by effeciency(thus the link).

I was also thinking of the ease of pulling out the unit in case of high water... thus the lightweight wood. Would be a quick cheap learning project.... If a more permanent alt were to be used, I would take a good look at the Scotty hydro 3 phase that Dan built on the Otherpower hydro page (cutin @ 12 volts 25rpm.) and adjust the windings to match whatever size wheel and rpm he decided to use... Just a thought... Gary D.

ghurd · « **Reply #32 on:** August 18, 2005, 01:58:56 PM »

I love efficiency... on the using and saving it end.

I personally would go with a Zubbly or Jerry type conversion, because of what I have to work with here, the total cost factor, and Speo's water is in Romania.

The bulk and weight of a large conversion would not be much of a factor at ground level.

No new wire to buy, very little machine work, less money for magnets, etc.

Even a used 2 or 3HP (15 to 22KW) 1050RPM 220V could be quite reasonably priced, and (I think) suitable for a couple or few hundred watts without much cost or work.

It would already have a lot of heavy windings for low speed use with not much loss.

Probably the bigger the the motor better, but I will leave that for others to think about. I'm no expert. Just thinking out loud.

G-

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Author Topic: Any energy in this creek? (Read 5830 times)