Author Topic: Fast small wind blades  (Read 7173 times)

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frepdx

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Fast small wind blades
« on: July 10, 2009, 08:51:37 PM »
I'm looking for advice on small fast wind blades.


This is my first wind turbine from scratch, intended as a learning project;



  • designed around 2" fender washers
  • 6 coils, 2.5 ohms, 140T, 30ga
  • 8 magnet pairs
  • 1.75V/coil @1100 rpm (2.5V if I really push it on the gap)
  • LED load, ~3.5V, 5W max





Going off this blade calculator -> three blades with TSR=8 and 8" radius seem to be in the ballpark. So a delta winding gives 5/3 ohms with ~8mph cut in.



  • is this doable, are there some things to take into account for very small blades?
  • is a TSR of 8 realistic
  • any particular suggestions on this design?


The blades seem to be the most work and I was hoping for some guidance before diving in.


Things I've learned; 1) making small accurate coils is easy if you take a few minutes and make a nice jig,  2) I love my mini lathe ;)


thanks

« Last Edit: July 10, 2009, 08:51:37 PM by (unknown) »

gotwind2

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Re: Fast small wind blades
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2009, 02:25:25 AM »
Very nice frepdx.

A 2" diameter rotor is indeed tiny, I have played many times with such small alternators, without access to a lathe, whilst it is good fun, I am constantly being told of the difficulties and very small amounts of power available at such a size.


May I suggest you look at radio control aeroplane 3 blade propellers, they are not a perfect solution, but when mounted backwards they seem to perform o.k. - I have no idea of the TSR with such propellers.


Here is my attempt at a small radial air core alternator using a 12" diameter off the shelf aeroplane 3 blade propeller, it produced around 2 watts of power.





more info on my website

http://www.gotwind.org/diy/12-inch-mini-turbine.htm


Please keep us updated with your results.


Ben.

« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 02:25:25 AM by gotwind2 »

ghurd

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Re: Fast small wind blades
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2009, 06:38:45 AM »
Nice work there.


Can you double up the magnets?  At least on one side?  It should get the voltage up some.


I am not a blade guy.

I do not see it as doable.  16" diameter and TSR 8.

The tips will be very thin.  The whole blade will be very thin.  Very very thin.

The calculator shows the blade angle going negative at about 6".


Delta is not so great, especially for that.

Circulating currents will give it fits.  Could rectify the phases individually.

Almost half the power will be lost in the diodes.


Consider connecting it Star and reducing the TSR.


Could also consider using 6 diodes, in 3 back-to-back pairs, on the AC output.  It would get rid of the rectifier losses and decrease the working RPM needed to light an LED.


G-

« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 06:38:45 AM by ghurd »
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ghurd

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Re: Fast small wind blades
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2009, 06:40:32 AM »
Edit- "Could also consider using 6 LEDs, in 3..."

G-
« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 06:40:32 AM by ghurd »
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frepdx

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Re: Fast small wind blades
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2009, 12:39:28 PM »
I forgot about rectifying! Yes, looks like I need six half-watt LED's instead of one 5W. Are there any white LEDs unhappy with ac that I need to be wary of?


Don't have enough magnets to double up, but I can reduce the gap a little and get 2V/coil @ 1100 rpm, 6.8 volts/leg switching to star. That gives a 600 rpm cut-in instead of 1100. Looking around, some of the smaller half watt leds have lower voltage that the luxeon, like about 3.2V instead of 3.5V. That drops it to about 500rmp cut-in, assuming the leds are happy with AC.


A little off topic, but what's the best way to reduce rectifier losses? I noticed that schottky diodes have low losses when partially loaded (.3V @ 1/10th load, .6V at full load, for example). Do all rectifier diodes exhibit a lower voltage loss at partial loads or is that a schottky thing?  Looking through digikey data sheets looks like low voltage/high amperage schottkys have the lowest voltage drop. Is that a valid technique to reduce losses; oversize the amperage capacity but not the voltage rating?

« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 12:39:28 PM by frepdx »

frepdx

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Re: Fast small wind blades
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2009, 12:42:10 PM »
Very cool project!


I'll look around for off the shelf RC props.


Are there any high efficiency blade designs you know of that lend themselves to thermoforming.

« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 12:42:10 PM by frepdx »

frepdx

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Re: Fast small wind blades
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2009, 12:52:09 PM »
I am constantly being told of the difficulties and very small amounts of power available at such a size.


I've been thinking a lot about this, the way some things scale well (smaller blades like to turn faster) and some don't (rectifying losses and required clearances). Starting small is going to make everything seem easier when I make a larger project (I hope).

« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 12:52:09 PM by frepdx »

gotwind2

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Re: Fast small wind blades
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2009, 01:26:01 PM »
frepdx.


Ghurd amongst others have better knowldege on the subject of LED's than me.

I don't see why white LED's couldn't be used as a bridge rectifier?, they are diodes after all.

It's definatly worth trying a 3 bladed RC prop with your mini dual rotor axial design, they are very strong, balanced and inexpensive £8 ($12) -  I don't see any advantages trying to thermoform a prop.


Darn it, I wish I had a Lathe.


I would love to see some more pictures when you have the alternator assembled e.t.c

Even better, I would like to commision you to build me a 2" mini axial alternator and sent to the U.K - paypal cash waiting for you.


You can email me directly - ben[at]gotwind.org


Regards.

Ben.

« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 01:26:01 PM by gotwind2 »

freshair

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Re: Fast small wind blades
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2009, 02:18:49 PM »
Very cool project! They should be good for 10K - 15K rpm. They also are available in different pitch at the same diameter. Try towerhobbies dot com... should be able to find every size, pitch there.


 I really like this project and been considering one myself.. I'm involved with r/c and never thought of using a prop.


Not to get to far off but,... the reason I am looking into one is, I have a problem with "birds"!! They seem to think my little solar genny is there personal toilet.. lol Some times I think I'm wasting more in water cleaning it, then the power it makes. lol Thought about putting pinwheels on it... but thought a small genny would be cool.. This project and the r/c prop might speed mine along.


Very cool,.. I'll be following this

« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 02:18:49 PM by freshair »

ghurd

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Re: Fast small wind blades
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2009, 03:12:49 PM »
No LED likes AC.


Forget the 3.5V or 3.2V forward voltage at 5W.

You won't be able to supply a rectified 5W with that (my bet).

I expect they will start to light up at about 2.85V.


About the diodes, I have noticed the the same thing.  A recent volley of emails with a person doing some detailed testing showed regular diodes do not always exhibit the lower Vf at a small current.


If you use 6 LEDs, they pretty much become the rectifiers.

I did it here for the same reason, and the concepts are there (simplified)...

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/11/25/204242/17

Doesn't seem like 4 years ago!


I have Schottkys cheap.

http://ghurd.info/dc_buy.html

G-

« Last Edit: July 12, 2009, 03:12:49 PM by ghurd »
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RogerAS

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Re: Fast small wind blades
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2009, 01:49:25 PM »
Box fan blades?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2009, 01:49:25 PM by RogerAS »

frepdx

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Re: Fast small wind blades
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2009, 03:16:07 PM »
Quick question on star winding, the following two links show different connections;


http://www.windstuffnow.com/main/3_phase_basics.htm

"ACE" center


http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2003/9/11/84741/6758

"ABC center


Which is right?

« Last Edit: July 17, 2009, 03:16:07 PM by frepdx »

mfisch2001

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Re: Fast small wind blades
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2009, 06:46:44 AM »
Concerning diode Vf - I used to be in charge of power diode production and we made 600,000-1,000,000 monthly.  All rectifier diodes have an increase in Vf as current increases. It may not be apparent if you are using a large power diode. 1 1a increase in current would cause a large increase in Vf for a 2A diode, but would cause a minor chance in a 50A diode.


A 1a diode may have a die 1mm square or smaller where a 50A rectifier could have a die

5mm square. The smaller Vf change is basically due to the lower "resistance" due to larger die area.


Mike

« Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 06:46:44 AM by mfisch2001 »

ghurd

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Re: Fast small wind blades
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2009, 07:50:18 AM »
Is there any truth that all the reverse voltage ratings roll off the same line, and the 50Vpiv are the same as the 1000Vpiv?

I read that somewhere.

G-
« Last Edit: July 22, 2009, 07:50:18 AM by ghurd »
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