Author Topic: Various assorted questions and one OT question  (Read 5761 times)

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Miztiki

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Various assorted questions and one OT question
« on: February 05, 2007, 12:35:19 AM »
Hi again. I've got several questions so maybe y'all can pick one or two and help me out?


  1. - See this turbine here? http://www.otherpower.com/turbineplans.html How hard would that be to spin by hand? It didn't occur to me that the magnets would provide resistance until I took apart a little thing we had with a tiny fan motor in it. (Don't laugh. My experience is in the kitchen, not the garage.) So I just wondered how hard or easy it would be to spin something that size.


  2. - The thing I'd be spinning in question #1, what's the proper term (the round part with the magnets and coils)? Is it turbine? Or does turbine encompass the whole thing (blades and all)? I know the part that spins is the rotor and the part that doesn't spin is the stator, but I don't know what the term for the whole round unit is. Maybe generator?


  3. - The glossary found on this site: http://www.otherpower.com/glossary.html Is it new or something? Turbine, direct current, stall, etc. are not in it, so wondered if it's new and not completed yet.


  4. - Just so I understand correctly, a wind turbine makes DC electricity unless you have an inverter, right?


  5. - Is it necessary to use AC power? From what I have learned, DC power doesn't travel far without losing efficiency, but if a wind turbine is on my roof or something then wouldn't that be close enough to make DC more desirable? Or is there more to it than that? (The part of Alaska we might be going to apparently uses generators to run everything.)


  6. - What's the concern with high wind speeds? Is it only that the blades might blow off or something along those lines? Airplane propellers spin really fast so that's why I'm wondering.


  7. - Say there's one turbine with less magnets and coils spinning at a high rpm rate. Say there's another turbine with more magnets and coils spinning at a lower rpm rate. I'm not sure how to ask my question but with all things being equal otherwise, would they generate the same amount of electricity? In other words, if you want to build a wind turbine, do you have a choice between one that easily spins really fast but only generates a little bit of electricity with each rpm, or one that doesn't spin as easily but generates more electricity when it does spin? I hope that makes sense.


  8. - Would studying the Earth's magnetic field help me to understand electricity better or no? I ask because learning how nature does things has taught me how to garden without having to till the soil, weed, or fertilize, so I wondered if the same concept would apply here.


  9. - Here's my off-topic question. I'm going to teach my dogs how to pull me around in a cart/bike hybrid sort of thing. I don't know anything about building it. I don't know how tire size would affect their ability to pull, or how much distance can be between the front and back wheels and still be structurally sound, etc. I've drawn up some diagrams of it but don't know how to build it. If anyone reading this knows about the mechanical aspect of this sort of thing then please email me! I'm married to a metrosexual so I'm all on my own here. :-(


Thank you so much for taking the time to answer all of my questions, both past and present. I really appreciate it.


Miz

« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 12:35:19 AM by (unknown) »

sk windpirate

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Re: Various assorted questions and one OT question
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2007, 06:26:24 PM »
I will do question #1 & #2


How hard would it be to turn the blades? By hand not very hard, unless you have a load on it then the change takes place. The faster you turn the more power it would take. the wind can spin the blades up to 1 to 1000 Revs per minute A good range would be 300 to 600.


The picture you are looking at is called a wind turbine. The parts of the wind turbine are:


The blades: The long things.

The hub: the plate/ hub the blades bolt to.

The alternator/Generator: The thing that the hub/blades bolt to. The alternator/generator will produce AC power, you will then need to retify it to DC.

using a bridge rectifer.

The Tail: That is what points it into the wind. The wind blowing on the blades causes the the blades to turn and generate the ac power. "Ihope this helps some"


   

« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 06:26:24 PM by sk windpirate »

Miztiki

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Re: Various assorted questions and one OT question
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2007, 06:42:28 PM »
Hi Ron,


So could a little 5 y/o kid turn the blades? I am a hands-on person but don't have any wind turbines laying around at the moment.


Load? You mean if something like a battery is connected to it?


The rotor/stator unit is called an alternator/generator? Both at the same time or do you mean either one?


On a vawt the parts would be: blades, alternator/generator, and I think that's it, right?


Thanks.

« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 06:42:28 PM by Miztiki »

commanda

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Re: Various assorted questions and one OT question
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2007, 07:16:48 PM »
OK, I'll try a couple.


Strictly speaking, an alternator and a generator are 2 slightly different things. An alternator produces AC (alternating current) which is then converted to DC by diodes. A generator produces DC, converting the AC from the coils to DC by means of brushes and contacts.


Transferring the power from your wind turbine to the batteries in (near) the house, losses are mostly due to the resistance of the wire. All wire has some resistance, generally the thicker the wire the less resistance. Whether you transmit your power as ac, with the diodes at the batteries, or as dc, with the diodes at the tower, is a matter of choice. Either way will work. Typically we make 3 phase alternators, so it would need 3 wires to transmit the AC, as against 2 (slightly thicker) wires for DC. Both methods have their pros and cons.


AC (mains) used in the house to run your appliances, is generally done using an inverter fed from your batteries.


As far as what you have read about DC power transmission, their defination of "a long way" is like, New York to LA. From the wind turbine in your back yard to your house is "not a long way".


Hope I haven't confused you even further.


Amanda

« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 07:16:48 PM by commanda »

maker of toys

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Re: Various assorted questions and one OT question
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2007, 07:18:15 PM »
wow. . . now that's a lot of questions.


with the dog cart, it would be helpful to know what sort of loads and terrain you're expecting to travel over. . . .for light loads (you and a week's groceries, for instance), paved roads and/or  well-maintained gravel, bike tires at high inflation pressured are probably your best bet. If there's going to be significant sand, turf or mud, then ATV tires are probably a better choice, but the extra weight and rolling resistance are going to limit the speed, mass and distance the dogs can pull.


structurally, you can make the thing as big or small as you want. . . mass scales with size. if you're just looking for a way to bop down to the 7-11, and you have a newfoundland or st. bernard, then a two-wheel 'surrey' (think dog rickshaw) has a lot to recommend it. the key thing to keep in mind is that you want the loaded surrey to very nearly balance across its axle. . . something like 5 percent of the load should be on the dog, at the most. . . but you don't want to lift the dog UP, either. have a look at the sort of thing the Amish build for inspiration.


(end of digression)


I'm not sure that studying the earth's magnetic field is going to help with understanding wind turbines. (generally speaking, that's the phrase for the whole machine) that's because most scientists don't completely understand the earth's field, either.


the 'rotor' can be (interchangeably) the bladed portion of the wind turbine, or the portion that holds the magnets and, well, rotates. just to confuse things, the bladed portion is more correctly the 'turbine' of a wind turbine. (things can get really arcane if you start talking about multi-disc turbine rotors and variable incidence stators, but I won't go there; that's getting pretty deep into mechanical engineering for the overview you asked for. plus it really isn't germaine to the energy levels Fieldlines tends to discuss.)


the assembly of magnet rotor and stator/s can be referred to as an alternator (or as slang, as a 'generator' or 'gen'). This nomenclature is clouded by the fact that a permanent magnet DC motor becomes a generator (in the real sense of the word) when its shaft is rotated by an external force (such as a turbine rotor)


now to the AC/DC debate: a brush-type permanent magnet DC motor or a un-modified car alternator pressed into service as a the load for the turbine rotor, will produce DC power. A brushless motor, and induction motor conversion, or a home-built alternator, will produce 'wild AC' which will vary in voltage and frequency as the speed of the wind changes.  Commonly, a builder of a machine that produces wild AC will install a bank of semiconductor 'recifiers' which will convert the output to a sort of dirty DC power, which can only be used to run brush-type DC motors and (more commonly) charge batteries. . . . other equipment (electronics, for instance) don't do well with the 'lumpy', variable voltage DC coming directly from the windmachine.


the myth of DC power not traveling well long distance is due to the fact that, until recently, there was no easy, efficient way to 'transform' DC power from high voltage and low current to low-voltage, high current. (as is commonly done with AC power)  the reason this difference is important, is that all practical wire for transmitting power has resistance, and the losses due to resistance are proportional to the current squared times that resistance, while the power transmitted is only voltage times current.


That means (leaving the math for the reader) that you want to transmit your power at as high a voltage and as low a current as you can possibly achieve, in order to reduce losses. this is easy (and fairly cheap) to do with AC.  Hence AC is used almost universally to transmit power long distances.


(interestingly enough, transmitting AC long distances suffers from other losses that DC does not have. again, that's getting pretty deep into side avenues that don't really affect fieldlines-style installations.)


the other way to achieve low losses is to use REALLY LARGE wire. that gets expensive when you're talking about transmitting 1000's of kilowatts many miles.


for the size and complexity of most house-hold scale power systems, there is no practical difference in the 'transmittability' of AC and DC.


what this means, is if you're charging a battery bank, then using the power in the bank as DC at the bank voltage will yield the lowest losses. However, if you have machines that will not run on DC power like grid-powered refrigerators and microwaves, you will need an inverter to convert your power to something resembling grid AC power (at least as far as voltage and frequency are concerned).


it is possible to modify most things to operate off DC power. in fact, depending on the voltage of your battery bank, some of them will operate unmodified, and with more power. (most vacuum cleaners and power hand tools fit this category, but require a 120VDC power source for full power) Many others operate from internal batteries, and the only change they require is to get a 'car charger' of the appropriate voltage input rating for your battery bank.


while it's true that aircraft propellors operate at (nearly constant speeds) up to 3000 rpm, they are also inspected before every flight,(usually a flight lasts less than 12 hours) and have a useful life of only a few thousand flight hours before they must be retired or very carefully rebuilt and recertified. they are also made of high-strength alloys (or single pieces of VERY carefully chosen wood,) carefully balanced and not usually flown in really bad weather (like hail or sleet)


But there's more to the concern over high winds than the structural integrity of the turbine disc itself.  the most pressing comes from the waste heat generated in the alternator at high outputs, and sometimes, the ability of a battery bank to absorb the power generated.  (this last can he combated with dumploads)


As a theoretical question, yes, it is possible to make two alternators of equal efficiency and output but differing RPM. As a practical matter, however, parasitic losses (bearing drag, blade tip drag, vibration and eddy currents, to name a few) will be higher with a faster-turning machine.


which brings us to: there are two sorts of drag on a wind machine. . . the parasitic sorts I just mentioned, and the loaded 'drag' which is really a case of the input power being converted to electrical power. . . and so the machine that you ask about will be fairly easy to turn by hand until it sees an electrical load, whereupon it will feel quite stiff.


-Dan

« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 07:18:15 PM by maker of toys »

sk windpirate

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Re: Various assorted questions and one OT question
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2007, 07:38:00 PM »
yes eveb a 4 year old could turn it "without a load". A load is generaly a battery

or it can be shorted out. the out put wires "tied together". This is some times done to protect the turbine in strong winds. This makes the blade very hard to turn. it keeps it from sping to fast and distroting it's self.


the rotor usualy holds the maginets and turns. The stator is the solid part that contains the copper windings, that remains statinary. Alternator is the combined of

the two units. This produces the AC electricty. Generator is a older term for for the same thing. It also produces AC too. Your newer car has a alternator. it turns very fast. Then generator "older version" turned a lot slower and there for produced less power. "AC too" The term generating power is by said to be be anything that will poduce power.

VAWT: vertical axis wind turbine.The blades and hub  project upward in catch the wind.

HAWT: horizontal axis. The blades point outward The hub and drive are horizontal.

"they lie flat". Horizontal turbines usualy spin much faster than there counter parts

but also where out quicker. The Vawt turns much slower, but requires a much better built alternator. They will turn ant where from 100 to 300 Revs per minute.

« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 07:38:00 PM by sk windpirate »

Miztiki

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Here's a bit of extra info
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2007, 07:39:58 PM »
I should mention that I have in mind Alaska, on the coast of the Arctic Ocean, with subzero temps and Class 7 winds (best winds for generating power). It would be off the grid. I've also been considering a small vawt not a hawt. I hope that helps some. ~Miz
« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 07:39:58 PM by Miztiki »

Miztiki

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Thanks Ron
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2007, 08:04:15 PM »
Turbines generally have a load on them though, right? I'm just trying to picture how much wind it takes to move the blades. That's hard to do if you've never seen a wind turbine in action and felt how strong the wind was blowing at the time.


Thanks for your help Ron.

« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 08:04:15 PM by Miztiki »

maker of toys

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Re: Here's a bit of extra info
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2007, 08:24:03 PM »
IMHO, the only thing electrically that changes with location and turbine type is the sort of alternator you build. . . . and in that case, (and given that VAWTs tend to be in the TSR 0.5 to 3.0 range), you'll want to build a fairly slow alternator. properly done, the VAWT itself will shield the alternator from the elements, so the snow, ice, rain problem is a minor one.  the cold will actually increase the efficiency of both the turbine and the alternator. (cold dense air caries more kinetic energy, and absorbs more heat per unit volume.) the biggest problem I forsee is the drag of cold lubricants on the turbine bearings.


with a VAWT in mind, type WindStuffNow into the google search. He's done an incredible amount to put the household-scale VAWT on a scientific footing.


if/when you know the move is coming, I'd (personally) get as much built and tested for the wind turbine as I could while I was still on the grid, and paying less for shipping of parts (like magnets). not having to pay big bucks (and wait a long time to fly in your parts) will make renewables much more attractive economically once you're there.  


getting the turbine debugged (as best you can) and thinking about things like capturing heat from your engine-genset exhaust to heat part of the house NOW will make the transition much less of a shock. (being at the end of a long logistics chain is going to make everything expensive. . .)


for your off-topic question, it sounds like the ATV tires are the right answer. offgrid implies a low density of pavement.


-Dan

« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 08:24:03 PM by maker of toys »

maker of toys

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Re: Thanks Ron
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2007, 08:28:11 PM »
it may help to envision a disc the diameter of the turbine blades, and compare its size to, say, a thin sheet of plywood that you are trying to carry in a cross-wind.  there is enormous force even in small winds, as long as the area involved is large.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 08:28:11 PM by maker of toys »

Miztiki

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Thanks Amanda
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2007, 08:44:27 PM »
Hi Amanda,


Earlier today I was reading a website that explains wind power for newbies and it listed the basic parts needed for a hawt. One of the parts listed was an inverter, so I looked up "inverter" to see what it is and it is a device used to convert DC into AC. So I thought all wind turbines generated DC power unless they had an inverter. Is that inverter what seperates alternators from generators then?


All of this is foreign to me so I'm trying to learn what the simplest wind turbine setup would be and then study it until I know it by heart, and then I could slowly complicate things as I go along.


(Nice to see another woman on the board.)


Michelle

« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 08:44:27 PM by Miztiki »

Miztiki

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Re: Here's a bit of extra info
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2007, 09:06:17 PM »
Hi Dan,


I still have a ton to learn but I thought why not put a vawt on my roof, have the center pole come down through the ceiling (boxed in like a support column), and have the generator (or alternator) in the house? That way I could use some of that heat coming off of it, and if it needed repairs for some reason then I wouldn't have to freeze my butt off outside. So I was happy to read your comment about capturing heat.


I did learn about dense air being good for wind turbines but I didn't know it was good for the alternator also. How does it help the alternator?


What do you mean "fairly slow alternator"?


I've been reading that windstuffnow for a couple days and that's partly where these questions came from. :-)


Miz

« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 09:06:17 PM by Miztiki »

Miztiki

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Re: Various assorted questions and one OT question
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2007, 09:43:10 PM »
Hi again (sorry I'm responding out of order),


The cart is for here in Houston, TX but I should probably talk about that off list. I don't want to get in trouble!


 "most scientists don't completely understand the earth's field, either"


That helps me not feel so stupid. I also found it interesting to note that electricity is not found often in nature, basically just in a few animals, and in lightning. Maybe someday we will look back on electricity-based energy and view it as archaic.


 "what this means, is if you're charging a battery bank, then using the power in the bank as DC at the bank voltage will yield the lowest losses"


This is pretty much what I had in mind at this early point. So that would be pretty efficient then you think? I understand that appliances up there are generally 2-way (DC or propane). If the wind there generates enough power to exceed my wildest dreams then I could trade fully charged batteries with the locals for meat. :-)


I asked about wind turbine spinning speeds because the winds up in that part of Alaska can get pretty hairy. I'd hate to shut the thing down and miss out on all that potential energy. If the blades on a vawt won't fly off or anything like that then why not let it spin as fast as it wants?


But if letting it spin as fast as it wants is not an option, then maybe having more/stronger magnets and coils would be the answer so that it takes more wind force to cause it to spin. Those are the thoughts I had and wondered about.


So much to learn. Thanks for you answers.


Miz

« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 09:43:10 PM by Miztiki »

commanda

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Re: Thanks Amanda
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2007, 10:50:19 PM »
An inverter is used to convert battery voltage (typically 12 volts, but 24 & 48 volt systems are also commonly used) into an AC voltage for running regular household appliances. The fact that you may use some form of wind turbine to charge those batteries has nothing what-so-ever to do with it.


Wind turbines (the whole thing considered as a system) generally outputs DC to charge batteries. Most wind turbines use an alternator to produce AC and convert it to DC with diodes.


Just to make things even more confusing, many people use the word "generator" in the broader sense.


I'm really not surprised that a total newbie is confused.


Amanda

« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 10:50:19 PM by commanda »

commanda

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Re: Various assorted questions and one OT question
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2007, 10:58:48 PM »
If the blades on a vawt won't fly off or anything like that then why not let it spin as fast as it wants?


Centrifugal force. Just forget the math off the top of my head, but it goes up exponentially as a function of rpm. The forces generated get out of hand really quickly.


Also, power dissipated in the stator gets to melt-down point pretty quickly.


Amanda

« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 10:58:48 PM by commanda »

maker of toys

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Re: Here's a bit of extra info
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2007, 11:45:32 PM »
a "slow" alternator is designed for a low-rpm cut-in. this usually implies very strong magnets and fine wire. . . the fine wire will act to limit maximum power output, because the high resistance of the long, fine wire in the coils will heat up the stator more per output amp than a machine that will turn faster and use thicker wire.


to grab numbers out of the air, a 10 foot diameter HAWT will probably cut in at about 175 RPM in something close to 8mph wind, assuming a design TSR of 6 or so. (the actual TSR at cut-in will be more on the order of 8 . . . thanks Flux.)


a 4 foot machine would probably be turning more on the order of 400-500 rpm at 8 MPH for cut-in and the same design TSR.


as you can see, the alternator for the 10 foot machine will need to be built to generate power at much lower rotational speeds than the one for a 4 foot machine.  hence the 10 foot machine needs a 'slower' alternator.


a VAWT of 4 ft diameter (which is close to Ed's biggest machine, IIRC) is going to have a TSR of 2 or 3, (again IIRC, someone jump in here if I'm off base.), and so will only be turning about half (or less) of what a HAWT would for the same wind conditions and power output.  thus it will need a "slower" alternator (one that 'cuts in' at lower RPM) than a HAWT of equal power gathering ability. if you were to build a 'drag' type VAWT, then you'd need an extrordinarily slow alternator, as the TSR you could expect would be about 0.5 or so; a 4 ft TSR 0.5 machine in that same 8 MPH wind would only be turning about 30 rpm.


As for cold conditions making the alternator more efficient, there are two factors working here. One, the cold, dense air will more effectively cool the stator, allowing higher output before the casting is in danger of melting/burning; and Two, the resistance of most materials rises as the temperature of the material rises. (to a point, but that point is very much in excess of what we want the stator to operate at.) So, the cold wire in the alternator operating in winter Alaska won't have as much resistance as the same exact alternator operating in summer Texas.


interesting idea, having the alternator in the living space.  I suspect that you will have some trouble with shaft whip, and may have some problems sealing the hole in the roof. . . plus if you get a significant snow load, the rotor may wind up partially buried and unable to catch the wind.  I'd be leary of the noise and vibration a turbine can(will) transmit into the house's structure, too.


On the plus side, you do capture the otherwise useless stator heat, and your nose will certainly tell you if the stator is in danger of buring out. . . and repairs can be undertaken without venturing into the cold and dark. (that might be a deciding factor right there. I'm getting to be a wimp about weather in my old age.)


-dan

« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 11:45:32 PM by maker of toys »

Miztiki

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Re: Thanks Amanda
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2007, 11:46:51 PM »
I am totally confused but I'm determined.


If I had a very simple vawt, it would be blades on top, generator underneath somewhere, and that's about it for the basic parts, right?


And if the blades were spinning nicely then it would be producing DC power? (because I have a generator, not an alternator?)


And I could have a battery bank hooked up to that whole system (called a wind turbine)?


And I could have appliances that could run directly off of my battery bank, using DC power?


But if I wanted to use an appliance with AC power then I would need an inverter somewhere between the battery and the appliance? The inverter would not be a part of the wind turbine, right?


Am I less dumber than I was earlier? :-D

« Last Edit: February 04, 2007, 11:46:51 PM by Miztiki »

maker of toys

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Re: Thanks Amanda
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2007, 12:03:39 AM »
no accusations of dumbness here.


and you're doing well for someone picking up a technical subject on her own.  (as opposed to going to a formal school on the subject.)


the form of the device that hangs under the wind-catching portion of your turbine and converts torque from the turbine rotor into electrical power can be either a generator or an alternator.  in your example, yes, the generator would be producing DC power.


eventually, you will be charging batteries with the output of this device, so if you chose an alternator (likely, as they tend to match VAWT RPMs better than PM brush motors) you will need some 'RECTIFIERS' which are semiconductor devices that convert AC to DC.  so the system as a whole would produce DC power, but the conversion device would still be correctly referred to as an ALTERNATOR.


other than that, you've got the basics down.


-Dan

« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 12:03:39 AM by maker of toys »

commanda

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Re: Thanks Amanda
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2007, 12:14:49 AM »
If you stop getting hung-up on the definition of alternator vs generator, you've got it.


The fact an alternator generates ac is a minor point. A handful of (relatively) cheap diodes converts it to dc. The alternator in your car usually has the diodes inside the alternator housing.


Amanda

« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 12:14:49 AM by commanda »

willib

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Re: Here's a bit of extra info
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2007, 12:42:09 AM »
whats a metrosexual
« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 12:42:09 AM by willib »
Carpe Ventum (Seize the Wind)

commanda

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Re: Here's a bit of extra info
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2007, 12:46:41 AM »
I know some people question the authority of wikipedia, but here goes anyway.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrosexual


Amanda

« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 12:46:41 AM by commanda »

Miztiki

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Re: Here's a bit of extra info
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2007, 12:54:34 AM »
I'm learning so much from you all.


"...designed for a low-rpm cut-in..."


What do you mean by "cut-in"? I don't think I'll be able to understand the first half of your reply without knowing what cut-in means. It can't mean the point at which the blades begin spinning if they are already spinning at so many rpm's so...


Interesting info on the effect cold has on resistence. That surprised me since hot expands and cold contracts. You'd think the electrons would be more free to move around in an expanded environment.


Would shaft whip have something to do with the central pole swaying? Just guessing.


I have no idea how much vibration or noise a rooftop vawt would produce. Is it significant? Those two factors would have never occurred to me. If it's not too bad then I could put up with it. I don't particularly like the cold either.


Snow wouldn't be a big deal from what I've read. It's basically a frozen desert. They get about 5" precip/yr with about 20" of that being snow. (1 inch rain = around 1 foot snow).  


This is all interesting stuff. Thank you so much for helping me out Dan.


Miz

« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 12:54:34 AM by Miztiki »

Miztiki

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Metrosexual
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2007, 01:02:55 AM »
My definition of a metrosexual is a man whose hands are smooth and clean as opposed to calloused and dirty. Will call AAA if he gets a flat cause he doesn't know how to change a tire himself. Goes to museums instead of rodeos. Wears "trousers" instead of jeans. Drinks beer out of a glass. That sort of thing. A citified man is a metrosexual IMO.


Miz

« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 01:02:55 AM by Miztiki »

commanda

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Re: Here's a bit of extra info
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2007, 01:05:02 AM »
Cut-in is the point where the voltage from the wind turbine exceeds the battery voltage, so current can start to flow. No load voltage is directly proportional to rpm.


Wind turbine attached to house is generally a "BAD idea". It will shake the mortar out from between your bricks and your house will fall down.


Or, the reverberation noise will keep you awake and you will eventually go mad from lack of sleep.


Put it away from the house. If you're gonna build a vawt in an area where the winds get "hairy", put it a real long way away from the house.


Amanda

« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 01:05:02 AM by commanda »

willib

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Re: Metrosexual
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2007, 01:20:44 AM »
Thank you both , i learn somthing new everyday on this board.

even though i was 22 in 1980 i never heard of ,or used the word  'camp'
« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 01:20:44 AM by willib »
Carpe Ventum (Seize the Wind)

Flux

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Re: Metrosexual
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2007, 05:04:38 AM »
Much of the terminology is misused and confusing at times.


A turbine is a rotary device to extract power from the momentum of a fluid, so strictly it refers to the propeller or blades.(even propeller is misused and it would be better to refer to the "wind rotor").


Again similar problems with the device that converts power to electricity.


Generator can be ac or dc although from common use on cars it has tended to be used for dc devices with a commutator and brushes.


Dynamo can again be ac or dc, but even more so it has been reserved for dc machines with brushes.


Alternator is by definition an ac generator, but again this has been confused in the car world where a rectifier is incorporated in the machine and the output is dc.


Others have done a good job of explaining most of the other things.


Power of any turbine increases with wind speed cubed and so it is totally unreasonable to load other than the very smallest machines to cope with extremely high winds.


Most devices have other forms of protection in high winds. HAWTs either furl ( turn away from the wind) or have some method of changing blade pitch to reduce the energy captured from the blades.


I deliberately say nothing about VAWts, I don't understand them or see their advantage, but I do see a real disadvantage in that few of them have any real method of control in high wind. Before using them I suggest you decide how you are going to control the thing. No way am I going to live in a house with one of those things directly above with a shaft coming through the roof, whipping and whirling out of control, with an alternator in flames and throwing bits round the place.


In that sort of environment you need a small robust well built and designed HAWT mounted well away from habitation where the tower will not fall on you if it crashes.


Flux

« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 05:04:38 AM by Flux »

gordon01639

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Re: Various assorted questions and one OT question
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2007, 05:26:06 AM »
Hi Mitz,


Have you looked at this site yet, it shows how to build a simple vawt.


http://www.picoturbine.com/


Gordon.

« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 05:26:06 AM by gordon01639 »

wdyasq

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The whole picture
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2007, 05:31:40 AM »
As I understand, this lady is speaking of going 'far north' and wants as self-sufficient  of an abode as is practical. This REQUIRES proven designs and technology. Not only is the handy hardware store not, failure of a power source may be a matter of life or death.


If someone has built a WORKING, PROVEN VAWT of a size sufficient to even partially provide a homestead with power, they have kept it well hidden. If someone does have an example, I would enjoy seeing it. I don't care to see any more photoshop dreams or other bull manure. The design needs to be in use several years with a track record of output and few failures before I consider it working and proven.


Ed's work is impressive. But in the picture of size to provide power for a household they are a bit on the small size.


Attaching any device to a shelter designed to protect one from Arctic conditions is not the most intelligent thing to do. These devices should be designed such that a failure will not end up being in the living area with 90mph, -60C winds to contend with while one is trying to figure out why the amp-meter just went to zero.


Miz,I'm not trying to dash water on a project, just trying to fetch reality and bring it in the discussion. The Arctic and Antarctic are not places one cares to do initial research on questionable products.


Ron

« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 05:31:40 AM by wdyasq »
"I like the Honey, but kill the bees"

finnsawyer

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Re: Thanks Amanda
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2007, 09:35:30 AM »
If you build a VAWT you will no doubt have the alternator below it.  Since VAWTs spin slowly it's probably not a bad idea to consider some type of transmission to speed up the rotation to the alternator.  Well, since a VAWT has a large diameter to start with, one idea would be to extend a cylinder down from the blade assembly.  place a rubber tire against the cylinder on the inside and run the alternator off of that.  This sort of thing has been used to power ferris wheels, so it should work.  With a large diameter VAWT it is possible to get a large gear ratio in one fell swoop.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 09:35:30 AM by finnsawyer »

luv2weld

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Re: Various assorted questions and one OT question
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2007, 11:38:02 AM »
Ref question 1

Nobody is laughing. If they are, they're idiots and pompous horse-heinies. Remember that no one is born knowing this stuff. We all had to learn sometime, somewhere.


Now a question or 2 for you. Have you seen SparWeb's Basic Principles of the Homemade Axial Flux Alternator??

Here is the link. You must have Adobe Reader.

http://www.sparweb.ca/Forum/AXIAL_FLUX_HowItWorks.pdf


Next, I don't want to pee on anybodies parade, but I don't think you are being given all the information that you need. Not by the members of the board, they're bending over backwards to help you. But by your husband and the company that he will be working for. I'm not trying to offend you. Just trying to think about this realisticly.

If a company is sending your husband (and you) to Alaska, they are going to provide housing. There is going to be a community with everything provided, including AC power.

I really can't conceive them throwing you out of a helicopter on the beach with a tent saying we'll pick you up in 3 years.

And if they are providing housing, they probably will not look kindly on someone drilling a hole through the roof.

One of the previous answers inferred that your producing power from a wind generator may be a matter of life or death. Really don't think that's going to be the case.

So this is going to be a fun and interesting hobby, whether it is in Texas or Alaska.

Or will it become an obsession like it has with some of us?


Ref question 9

Need more info. Is it 2 Chihuahuas, or 6 Newfoundlands? A team of 10 Huskies?

Do you have welding capability? Does everything have to be screwed together?

Can you work with metal, or do you have woodworking ability?

If you post the question about the dog cart in your diary, you will not get in trouble and you will get some answers. Especially if you post the drawings that you mentioned.

Remember that we are blind and you must give us all the info you can so we can understand. (Just like we must remember that you are blind when we try to answer, so we have to make sure we explain things properly.)

Don't take this as an attack on you or your husband. Just an outsider looking in.


Ralph

« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 11:38:02 AM by luv2weld »
The best way to "kill time" is to work it to death!

Miztiki

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Re: Various assorted questions and one OT question
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2007, 02:07:00 PM »
Hi all,


Let me see if I can answer some of your questions.


No, I hadn't seen the picoturbine site, thank you.


Yes, I've seen the SparWeb's Basic Principles of the Homemade Axial Flux Alternator and in fact I was reading about neodymium magnets late into the night last night, then I fell asleep.


I didn't know that wind turbines vibrated alot until someone further upthread mentioned it.


Unless I'm totally mistaken, vawts are more simple than hawts. It helps for me to picture the simplest setup, and in my mind I picture a small vawt spinning in the wind and generating electricity. Maybe vawts only look good on paper but for trying to understand all of these new concepts and words and info, a vawt fits the bill because it's so uncomplicated. This is all a bit overwhelming so I'm trying to keep it simple so it doesn't all go over my head.


Ralph, I've been wanting to move to Alaska for a while now. It's mere coincidence that hubby may end up working there. If he gets the job then that would be a good time to make the move, so we'd be in our own house on our own land (and really we could live anywhere in Alaska). It would be really neat to experience life in the Arctic for a few years though (which is where he'd be working) so when I read how windy it was I began looking into wind power, and here I am learning.


I don't even know if he's going to be working in Alaska though. It's early in the game yet but whether he ends up working there or not is beside the point. Someday, God willing, I will live in Alaska, so I'm learning what I can and we'll just see if that learning is for sooner or for later.


Obviously I would have and rely on proven methods of heat, light, etc. Wind power, solar power... all of that would be a fun learning experience. There's not much to do up there you know, especially in the winter. :-D  Fuel is apparently $6/gallon and it's my understanding that folks power everything from their generators, so help from the wind would be nice.


It looks like talking about my dog cart would be ok in a diary so I'll write that up in a bit, and I'll link to diagrams and everything too. Between learning about wind power, permafrost, polar bears, and dog carts, my brain is beginning to spin. :D


Miz

 

« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 02:07:00 PM by Miztiki »

Miztiki

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Re: Various assorted questions and one OT question
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2007, 03:39:01 PM »
Ok, I just submitted a new diary entry about the dog cart.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 03:39:01 PM by Miztiki »

RP

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Re: Here's a bit of extra info
« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2007, 08:21:08 PM »
Shaft whip in this contect refers to the movement of the shaft between the top bearing on the roof and the bottom one in the house.  Think of a jumprope standing on one end and you'll get the idea.


Multiple bearings can be placed along the shaft but then you have more parts to align and service.  Also unless the alignment is almost dead on the shaft will fatigue from constantly being flexed while it rotates.

« Last Edit: February 05, 2007, 08:21:08 PM by RP »