Help Needed

[oldmil]

First time poster and totally new to wind generation.

I want to build a unit simply to keep batteries (12v deep cycle) charged at a cabin with no power.  Cabin is only used 6 or so times/yr.  I have a 130dcv, 17 amp, 5950 rpm treadmill motor but from what I've gleaned from you folks is that is not suitable (to high rmp's?).

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

I am fairly mechanically inclined but not so much on the electrical end, however I have associates who can help me on that.

Thank you for your help.

Oldmil

[hiker]

you could gear it up...

heres a few geared up treadmill motors and others..

           http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/9/1/7921/49961

[disaray1]

 There are a few folks here that have seldom used cabins, and use small windgens to keep everything topped up. That's kinda scary to me- one needs to be able to keep an eye on things with wind. There are so many variables, and one thing goes wrong while you're away, you'll come back to a destroyed turbine and/or possibly murdered battery bank. Controls are the toughest part of wind IMHO. Others may disagree.

 If the site has good sun, I'd go with PV. Left unattended, there's very little to go wrong. Not trying to steer you away from wind, just offering suggestions.

 David

[ghurd]

That was my first thought too.

Might be cheaper, when all is said and done.

G-

[feral air]

I'd go with a big s-vawt if I was really set on wind power. There's less of a chance of a catastrophic failure while you're away. I'm naturally biased toward vawts though.

Still, David has a point....but then I'd worry about theft. A solar panel is pretty easy to walk off with but it'd take a bit more work to take a windmill.

[DamonHD]

I know that G might not approve (!), but if theft were an issue some of the stick-down UniSolar stuff that looks like felt roofing at first glance, and can't be pulled off, might be useful.

Rgds

Damon

[ghurd]

I Don't approve!  Purely because of the Price of that stuff!

G-

[wdyasq]

You have a link to a successful turbine like that? I'd really like to see one in operation. And, I'd like a long term report - 3 or more years.

Thanks!

Ron

[TomW]

Ron;



I'd go with a big s-vawt if I was really set on wind power. There's less of a chance of a catastrophic failure while you're away. I'm naturally biased toward vawts though. --feral air

Is this what you are responding to? If so, I will add my request for same.

Just sad that people advocate totally unproven systems for someone who seems to want to actually create power. Easy to spend other folks effort and resources I guess.

The statement is totally irresponsible WRT the failure bit. My 2 meter Zubbly Conversion has flown head on in extremely high winds [70 mph at airport 4 miles away] with no furling or damage. Dans turbines have survived greater than 70 MPH winds with furling, also.

Not to pick on anyone but, unless you have experience, please resist spreading your version of "facts".

Fact is, I actually like the VAWT but find it criminal when those with no flying mill advocate someone else go thru the work and expense to build one because they hope in their hearts it will work.

Just the opinions of one man.

TomW

[TomW]

BTW toys and yard art do not count as thats the expected rebuttal. Real machines only need apply.

[feral air]

A successful s-vawt? Define successful...

I think most of the people that build steel barrel vawts just set 'em up and let 'em be...never really updating their web pages or giving progress reports. Why would they?..it's up and doing it's job. Of course there's lots of other types and construction methods too but that seems to be the first vawt people come across or recognize.

What kind of report are you looking for? As far as long-term reliability, that's in the design and build quality and hawts can suffer there too. If we're just looking at the numbers (or anecdotal evidence, anyway), hawts fail way more often than vawts.

Numbers rarely tell the whole story though. :-)

Personally, I think it's easier to design and build a rugged all-weather s-vawt that you can leave unattended. Just use beefier materials all around - the basic concept and construction remains the same. There's no furling system on an s-vawt that can fail and it will never throw a blade at lethal speeds. That's not to say that you couldn't screw the design and/or build it poorly though...that's always a possibility...and an s-vawt failure could be lethal with a heavy enough rotor and tall enough pole. What are the chances though?

I think I'm rambling now...like I said, I'm biased.

[jacquesm]

Let me put in my 2 cents here.

I think that to advise a new person on the board to go 'with a big VAWT if I were you' borders on being downright mean.

If you are not prepared to first go and build the machine and depend on them that you advise other people to go and build you are not being very ethical. It's not like 'VAWT's are either well understood by board members in a numerical sense OR in a sense of having built lots of them. That doesn't mean the door is closed but in this context there is no room for them imho.

Put your money where your mouth is, build the thing demonstrate its reliability. Then you can let your natural bias shine through, and who knows lots of people might have one one day.

VAWT's have eaten up more in research budgets than some small countries could afford. EVERY company that I'm aware of that's in the VAWT business is either doing R&D or has had to scale back the expectations of their products to the point where they're no longer relevant. That includes one of the few players left in the field, the dutch company offering the 'turby'.

Sure, it is an interesting phenomenon, I'm planning on one day make one of my own just to see what the real issues are and to see if I can somehow contribute to solving them. Especially the vibration modes are interesting from a computational point of view.

But to advise a self-professed newbie to go with that design is either a badly worded joke or simply bad advice.

If you're a newbie and this is going to be your first machine go and build a 10' class 'danbuilt' or a small motor conversion, learn as much as you can, then work your way up to bigger and more 'daring' designs.

And if one day you should feel lucky and wealthy you decide to make a (sizeable) VAWT then please document every step because that design still holds promise (and that's why we have so many people fascinated with them, including me) and maybe one day someone will unlock that promise.

best regards,

 & good luck with your first machine !!

   Jacques Mattheij

[DanB]

Sorry  - I'll have to jump on you for this one as well ferel air...

'A successful s-vawt? Define successful...'

Something that's reasonably cost effective over the course of time.  To accomplish that it needs to produce reasonable power and be reasonably reliable.

'I think most of the people that build steel barrel vawts just set 'em up and let 'em be...never really updating their web pages or giving progress reports.'

That's because they're probably very dissapointed in the performance.  They may have some merit if you're just wanting to pump a bit of water or grind coffee...

' Why would they?..it's up and doing it's job.'

Actually - it's probably slacking off rather badly on its job if it's an electric machine.

' Of course there's lots of other types and construction methods too but that seems to be the first vawt people come across or recognize.'

Yes.. because it seems so easy and barrels are a dime a dozen and there are a few people out there saying things like... if I were going to build a wind turbine I'd make a VAWT!

'What kind of report are you looking for?'

KWH per month or something...  something better than pictures and a you tube video at any rate.  (is this the sort of thing you had in mind?)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZJ7tWRQy4w

' As far as long-term reliability, that's in the design and build quality and hawts can suffer there too. If we're just looking at the numbers (or anecdotal evidence, anyway), hawts fail way more often than vawts.'

Actually - no... they don't.  There are lots more HAWT failures only because 99 (guessing)% of wind turbines (and way more than that if you figure 'workable' wind turbines) are HAWT's.

'Numbers rarely tell the whole story though. :-)'

Wind power is all about numbers and I think they deserve at least some attention.

'Personally, I think it's easier to design and build a rugged all-weather s-vawt that you can leave unattended.'

Nice idea.. I wonder how you keep it under control in high winds?  I'd probably worry about that after I actually figured out how to get real power from one though.

' Just use beefier materials all around - the basic concept and construction remains the same.'

It's not that simple.

' There's no furling system on an s-vawt that can fail'

Furling systems done right don't fail, they're very simple.  You still need to come up with something though - on every VAWT that accomplishes the same task as a furling system.  There is no 'easy' way to do that with a VAWT.

 'and it will never throw a blade at lethal speeds.'

You don't think?

' That's not to say that you couldn't screw the design and/or build it poorly though...that's always a possibility...and an s-vawt failure could be lethal with a heavy enough rotor and tall enough pole. What are the chances though?'

The chances of failure seem fairly high to me - lethal... I guess that depends on where you stick it.

'I think I'm rambling now...like I said, I'm biased.'

Yes, I think you are and so am I.  Let's look at things this way.  Think about a home made 10' diameter wind turbine that's perhaps 20% efficient (I'm being conservative), sweeping about 80 square feet, and weighing about 100 pounds sitting on a decent tower which is getting it about twice the 'wind energy' as it would be if it were sitting on the ground.  It spins quickly and therefor can have a fairly small direct drive alternator.

Then consider the large barrel S VAWT which might be 10% efficient (I'm being optimistic).  To sweep the area I guess it'd have to be 5' wide and 16' tall.  It only has half the efficiency so it needs to sweep twice the area. So 5' wide and 32' tall. I think if you're lucky, such a machine might compete with a 100 pound 10' diameter HAWT on a tower - although this monstosity is likely sitting on the ground and the very top is only 32' up so to be fair - you need something even larger.  Doesn't seem very practical - and in 70mph winds it actually seems quite scary to me.

Look around at people who actually power their homes with wind and you won't notice any such machines.  Not to say there are not VAWT designs that have some potential - but I don't believe there are any that can be as cost effective as a good HAWT (yet).

[finnsawyer]

There was or is an outfit called Wind Store that has been trying to sell (scam) a 60 foot diameter VAWT here in the great state of Miss-it-again.  Supposedly they are building one about a hundred miles from here.  It was supposed to become operational this summer, but apparently hasn't.  The scam?  They were going to enter into agreements with schools, municipalities, etc. to site these things at the schools or on the roofs of buildings with the schools or users to pay for them.  The users were then supposed to save on their electric bills.  When I heard that a local school district was considering such a plan I jumped all over it mainly because of the potential danger to the students from an unproven design, although I am of the opinion that these things should in no case be built were people congregate.  We're talking about a 60 foot diameter egg beater at a height of 120 feet off the ground.  If anyone from Wind Store happens to read this, I would like to show them a nice remote site that is right by a sub station, were they could put up as many units as they like.

[DanB]

Yes, scary how paper pushers will invest tax payers dollars into unproven/dangerous ideas about which they know nothing.  Hats off to you for discouraging that project.

[ghurd]

And now you see the costs and potential problems with windmills...

(Especially if the chances are no one will be there if / when something goes wrong)

Might look at the HF 45W solar kit and a decent (SG-4?) controller.  Not much power, but it won't need much. Not much to go wrong. Comes with some dandy (I'm told) CFLs.

Should end up with about $250 in it.  Considerably less if timing gets a sale and a coupon.

G-

[feral air]

"I think that to advise a new person on the board to go 'with a big VAWT if I were you' borders on being downright mean."

Read what I wrote again. I never advised anyone to do anything. I said I'd go with a big s-vawt. I would. Not only that but I disclaimed it by saying I'm biased. :/

Note also that s-vawts are not the same as egg-beater vawts - you can't (well, I guess you guys can) call out problems with one type and apply it to all vawts.

oldmil was looking for a way to use the treadmill motor he has on-hand. Can he use it to build a hawt? That's what this thread was supposed to be about. How can he use the treadmill motor to charge some batteries for a cabin that's used 6 or so times a year?

You have a link to a successful treadmill-motor-based hawt? I'd really like to see one in operation. And, I'd like a long term report - 3 or more years.

My guess would be that there are none. That's because [the people that build them are] probably very dissapointed in the performance.

Sorry oldmil, I didn't think my comments would take the entire thread down this path. I was just trying to say what I would do and why...and I thought I was being 'general and disclaim-y' about it so that it wouldn't come off as advice.

I guess I won't participate in this thread anymore...I get it, I'm dumb for even bringing it up...whatever.

[oldmil]

Thanks ghurd, I may just go with PV.

Do you think the motor I have is usefull for any type of generator without gearing it up?  Would it work as a trickle charger?

If I were to build a generator it would be taken down when I leave (to avoid the possible problems others have mentioned).  Only used to keep batteries topped off while I was there.

Oldmil

[DanB]

Hi - please don't take offense.. perhaps sometimes I get a bit too snitty when it comes to VAWTS.

You said..

"Read what I wrote again. I never advised anyone to do anything. I said I'd go with a big s-vawt."

True...  but then you backed it up with lots of false statements about reliability - furling systems etc..

It really all comes down to numbers.  Energy produced per given swept area, dollars spent, time spent etc...  and in my opinion most of what you suggested as being true was actually dead wrong.

 "I would. Not only that but I disclaimed it by saying I'm biased. :/"

Yes.. good thing you backed it up with that... a true statement.  I think you're biased because you have some serious misconceptions about some things.  One thing to build a science fair project - if you want to actually produce energy there are a few things that work well and thousands (millions?) of things that dont.

[DanB]

Oldmil - this is really fun stuff.  You have a motor - it is far from ideal but if you have the time I would say experiment with it.  If you're really fascinated with this stuff I would do a lot of reading on this board - and...  (I tell lots of people this)... get yourself a copy of 'windpower workshop' by Hugh Piggott.  It takes a lot of time and usually a fair bit of money to build a workable windpower system from scratch (but it's lots of fun).  I think if you  read Hughs book you'll be at a very good staring point.  From there you'll know a bit about 'whats in the box' and you can experiment - or you can just follow plans and build something that's fairly bound to work well.

[feral air]

I thought I was done but I guess I like abuse....

"True...  but then you backed it up with lots of false statements about reliability - furling systems etc..

It really all comes down to numbers. Energy produced per given swept area, dollars spent, time spent etc...  and in my opinion most of what you suggested as being true was actually dead wrong."

False statements where? What, specifically, was I dead wrong about? I'm pretty sure I said what I wanted to say without really 'stating' anything that isn't verifiable.

I sort of jokingly implied that hawts fail a lot, I can admit to that. I didn't say why hawts fail more than vawts but that's because we all know that hawts are built and installed a lot (lot!) more often than vawts.

Oh, but can we count the thousands (millions?) of vawts installed on the roofs of commercial buildings? Those little dome lookin' things on the local wal-mart...they may not make electricity but they save some. If we count those that really pushes the vawt's reliability and safety numbers up....if we're just going by 'type' of windmill and nothing else.

I read a thread around here the other day where someone was talking about a serious hawt failure. It threw a blade into a shed roof?...iirc, due to the furling system not working as planned. Commercial hawt failures aren't common but it happens to the big boys too sometimes.

Energy produced per given swept area doesn't really matter, the sky is big. Dollars spent, ok...you might have a point. What's a 10' hawt cost to build and put up? Make sure you include a 60ft pole. Honestly, because I do want to build one some day.

Oh, and it would help if you could tell me what it's going to cost to get a permit to go higher than 35ft while you're at it. ;-)

My plastic barrel vawt has cost me $210 so far and may cost up to $275 for what I'm doing. I spent $80 on the air compressor. $100 for the track, rollers, a pulley and rope to send it up and down the pole (which is really just an optional-nicety). The barrel cost me $30 but retails for around $60. I got the pole (telephone-pole sized), steel-tubing for the frame, bearings and random nuts/bolts for free. Nothing past the current $210 applies to generating electricity.

Turn that compressor into a treadmill motor and you can figure that other hundred toward a pole, belt, etc...or not. I would use two barrels for turning a treadmill motor though so that runs the price up a little bit...still, I think between $200-300 is possible, $400 for the bells and whistles. If you get some freebies or have materials you can recycle into it then look toward the middle or lower end.

Usually you can install a vawt without a permit too since they don't need to be up so high.

Time? Either way, if you've never done it before it'll take some time. I've spent maybe 4 full hours working on my plastic barrel vawt so far (I'm not counting debarking the tree by hand but am counting setting the pole and a bit for testing). Start-to-finish, I don't know how long it'll take - I'm not in any kind of rush to get mine completed. I'm emergency room inclined so I like to wait for the mojo to be flowing before I do anything. It's about 80% complete though and has been spinning most of the summer.

Once you've built one (either kind) it's going to go faster/easier the next time.

I still don't have anything against hawts. And I still think s-vawts are safer to leave unattended for long periods of time. That's just going by 'type' though...once specific machines enter into it it's a little more complicated. Whatever.

[Volvo farmer]

Are you pumping any water with that thing yet? I have a well but no pump and would build something like that in a heartbeat if someone actually proved that it would work. Please post a story when you get it working because I'd much prefer your concept to a conventional well pump.

Your idea of hooking a treadmill motor to a VAWT is a good one. I've been reading this board for five years or so, and I have never seen anyone come up with a VAWT that would even put out 100 watts in a 20 MPH wind. I've seen people make several hundred watts in a 20 MPH wind with both a dual rotor HAWT and a motor conversion HAWT. I've seen people make good power with water wheels, diesel generators, steam generators and homebrewed solar panels, yet I have never seen anyone in here ever make any appreciable power out of a VAWT. You seem to have a pretty good understanding of these things and I think you could make a real breakthrough in this field. You could be to VAWTS what Zubbly was to motor conversions, a real pioneer in the field that is willing to share his expertise with all.

I think the reason all these other guys are on your case is because you haven't got a lick of evidence to back up what you're talking about. When Dan says he knows a HAWT will make power, he shows us pictures of a HAWT spinning in the wind and pictures of an ammeter, proving that power is being made and stored in batteries. So far, you have shown a picture of a telephone pole in the ground and maybe that is why people are picking on you.

I have faith in you though. I know it won't be long before a good strong stream of water coming out of your well when the wind is blowing, or you just hook a treadmill motor to it to make some electricity. I just hope you don't sell out to a major corporation, or get bought out by the unscrupulous oil companies when you make the breakthrough. Please remember your friends on Otherpower and share your knowledge with us.

[ghurd]

That motor is a little bit too fast, or too low voltage for a windmill. But I didn't throw any of mine away.  Plenty of other uses.

If you use the cabin in the summer, the motor would make a nice low power fan.

Inspired by cmeBREW's story here

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/3/10/23942/1876

Made about 4 of them, most put back in the box fan housing.  This one pulls about 300ma at '12V'. Moves a lot of air.  It is a recycled 20" box fan blade fastened to the flywheel with Hot Glue (no kidding).

Cell phone pic.

G-

[DanB]

Hi Feral Air - sorry if I seem 'abusive' - actually I really have great respect for anybody here who's actually building real stuff and sharing pictures.  I feel a bit badly that this post has been a bit hijacked...  so I'll leave it at this.

 I know you mean no harm by any of your comments.  But..  when somebody gives advice here and I disagree with it I usually chime in ;-)

"Oh, but can we count the thousands (millions?) of vawts installed on the roofs of commercial buildings? Those little dome lookin' things on the local wal-mart...they may not make electricity but they save some."

No - you can't count those.  Totally different...

"I read a thread around here the other day where someone was talking about a serious hawt failure. It threw a blade into a shed roof?...iirc, due to the furling system not working as planned."

If the furling system didn't work as planned then I would say it was not well planned.  done right it's very simple and very effective.  And again - any reasonably efficient wind turbine needs something to protect itself in high winds, doesn't matter if its a HAWT, VAWT or whatever...

"Energy produced per given swept area doesn't really matter, the sky is big. Dollars spent, ok...you might have a point. What's a 10' hawt cost to build and put up? Make sure you include a 60ft pole."

To a point I agree... people do start splitting hairs over squeezing out every last drop of energy per given swept area.  But with a HAWT it's not difficult to get very reasonable efficiency.  Again - to build a VAWT that sweeps 80 square feet effectively and efficiently is likely to be an expensive undertaking.

I think if you build from scratch it's feasible to get a 10' dia HAWT on a decent tower for $2000 give or take...  (we've done it much cheaper than that but that is realistic)

"Oh, and it would help if you could tell me what it's going to cost to get a permit to go higher than 35ft while you're at it. ;-)"

If you must go through the red tape then yes, that stuff can get tricky.  Recently our county has made life a bit easier for people doing that.  The expense isn't that great - the red tape can be pretty annoying.

'Usually you can install a vawt without a permit too since they don't need to be up so high.'

Well - if you want equal wind they do.  They don't usually wind up in such high places because they're heavy/large and difficult to get on high towers.  So people justify that by saying 'they dont need to be so high' - actually they do.  The use the same fuel as a HAWT and the fuel is up high.  Mick Sagrillo put it nicely once...

VAWT's are great - you can put them on the ground.. or even just leave them in the box!  The performance will be similar.  any wind turbine on the ground is like a solar panel in the shade.

[feral air]

I guess you missed the vid that I posted. It's not just a pole in the ground - the vawt was spinning over a month before the pole went in the ground - the vid shows the vawt in its frame at (unfortunately) ground level. I bought the track and rollers to get it on the pole and off the ground but it's been raining here since then so I've been putting it off.

In its frame it does about 36rpm in about 4-6mph wind when it's not connected to anything. When I hooked an old radiator fan motor to it (the same cog-heavy motor it was hanging from earlier in the summer) via an old belt, it poduced a watt in that same wind range, between 4 and 6mph. Closer to/more 6mph than in the vid.

1 watt seems pretty bad but you should've seen how poorly it was hooked together (lots of belt/tension loss, lop-sided pulley on the motor) and you have to keep the wind speed and gear ratio (1:5 instead of the 1:10 it should be) in mind.

The vawt noticed that the motor was attached, for sure (bad test), but it was nowhere near its top speed. Had that been 12mph wind (giving me 100+rpm) with double the gear ratio (along with a better belt, etc) I think I would've had enough spinnage to do something with.

Yaknow, I really hate that all I can give is my gut feelings, impressions and best-guess numbers. I don't have a lab though, I have a barn.

Lets push my guesstimate up to $500 because nobody wants to go over budget, it makes the numbers nicer and the challenge harder...

Taking Dan's $2000 estimate, we'll say you can make 4 vawts for the price of one 10' hawt.

If each vawt produces 1/4th the electricty as the hawt produces then it's break even. But, even if each vawt produces 1/6th the electricity it still might be worth it...maybe you don't need all that the hawt will produce (like oldmil's cabin situation, or mine), want to buy into wind as you can afford it or you just dig vawts.

Less than 1/6th and we can safely say that I've totally failed. I can live with that though. All that means is that I/we need to work harder to bring the cost down or the efficiency up.

I hate to say it (and I hate that saying) but I think one of you experienced hawt builders should give a big s-vawt a fair try. You'll never get satisfactory numbers from me, I just don't have it in my blood like you guys do, besides the fact that my goal is to move air (then water) and not electrons.

I should've said from the start that if it was me, I'd build a kinetic tension energy storage device. ;-)

Volvo, no worries, I think I already share too much. Not like there's anything to my idea that hasn't been done before, the only thing I've contributed is plastic over steel for some weight savings. take it easy

[elvin1949]

Ghurd

 Perfect use for the motor.

HF kit's can be had cheap.

Catch them on sale and a 15% discount.

I got 2 set's for 187 dollars each after tax.

later

Elvin