Author Topic: Do I have this figured out O.K.??? or not. (Read 8525 times)

bearbutt95 · « **on:** March 09, 2008, 10:06:10 PM »

PM DC Motor

Here is what I got!!!

This is at my camp or home away from home. No grid for 10 miles or so, no sun (trees aren't mine to cut down and no wind also because of the trees).

I did some testing burned up some meters but I think this is what I am working with.

Also I am having a hard time understanding all the terminology.

---5 hp gas engine turning (half throttle) the PM--DC motor @ 2200 rpm and puts out about 55 volts DC and about 45 amps.
---48 volt battery bank using 4--250aH 12VDC --Model UB-8D AGM

Universal Power Group

Out Back Flex Max 80 controller
Dump load---an old electric hot water heater-- used as a pre-heater for home water heater.
MIDMNE4448 Midnite Solar E-Panels with Magnum Energy Sinewave Inverter

Will these numbers or do these numbers mean anything???

any help

kurt · « **Reply #1 on:** March 09, 2008, 07:17:29 PM »

first off the outback controller is not a diversion controller it will not work with a dump load it is not what you need to look for a tristar 60 by morningstar.

2nd your watter heater probably has 220v heater elements in it they will most likely not draw enough power at 48v to do any good. you will have to either find 48v elements for it, find some proper resisters and make an air heater, or get some nichrome wire and make an air heater.

kurt · « **Reply #2 on:** March 09, 2008, 07:28:02 PM »

here is an ohms law calculator to help you figure out how many ohms resistance you need to dump the power you have to dump.

http://www.mcsquared.com/ohmframe.htm

you need to figure out your max safe battery voltage and the max amps you need to dump and plug that into the calculator and it will give you a number in ohms.

ghurd · « **Reply #3 on:** March 09, 2008, 07:32:03 PM »

The half-throttle 55VDC and 45A don't mean much because they are not the power that was going into the battery. I expect the A is short circuit and the V open circuit?

Really need to connect it to a battery to see what amps goes into the battery.

The dump load isn't going to dump much, like Kurt said.

G-

finnsawyer · « **Reply #4 on:** March 10, 2008, 08:57:13 AM »

Even though the grid is ten miles away today, it may not remain so. It would probably be a good idea to put in wiring that could handle a normal household 240 volt entry panel. Just a thought.

bearbutt95 · « **Reply #5 on:** March 10, 2008, 11:21:40 AM »

Do I need to make sure that the Battery is dead...

bearbutt95 · « **Reply #6 on:** March 10, 2008, 11:40:00 AM »

The cabin has been wired for 240 volts when it was built. I have been powering it with a 10kw Diesel generator but the price of diesel fuel is over 4.00 dollars a gallon now so I thought that I could do something with DC volt power. I know how to do AC power but DC is kind of tricky "but maybe I am making it that way"!!! I do have a small stream going through the property. I do not think it has enough water to use.

bearbutt95 · « **Reply #7 on:** March 10, 2008, 12:18:27 PM »

This is what I got from:::

The Alternative Energy Store

"Making Renewable Energy Affordable" (tm)

http://www.AltEnergyStore.com/

This is the question that I asked them::

I have a used windblue DC-512 Permanent Magnet Motor bought from e-bay that puts out approximately 50 volts dc and 42 amps. Could you tell me what products I would need to purchase to get this running and powering my home. I am looking at the Magnum MS-AE 4448 Inverter / Charger this seems like a good system...

This is their answer::

I'll send some information in the mail for you. Make sure to check out

the information we have online regarding the e-panel and check out the

installation instructions as well. I'll send a quote for the specific

unit I'm talking about- but yes, basically you wire 48v batteries to the

inverter and then the inverter to the AC sub panel and you'll be able

to power that sub panel. Keep in mind this unit is not designed to work

in conjunction with the utility grid.

I guess that there is a lot of info missing from this message!!!

Any help would and be appreciated..

Thanks to everyone who has responded to help me.

ghurd · « **Reply #8 on:** March 10, 2008, 06:05:08 PM »

No. But the battery voltage and amps should be measured at the same time.

G-

kurt · « **Reply #9 on:** March 10, 2008, 06:09:53 PM »

your inverter should have a 120v battery charger in it just have your electrician wire the 120v input of your inverter to the 120v output of your diesel generator and charge your batteries that way.... that would be much better for your batteries and use equipment you already have..... you would have to read your user manual for the inverter/changer to see how to set up your charging rates and voltages but that would be it..... you would probably need more batteries to make your time between engine runs long enough to be worth it.

bearbutt95 · « **Reply #10 on:** March 10, 2008, 08:38:41 PM »

I have all this stuff installed at the camp---are you saying that I don't need it???

I have 48 volt battery bank using 4--250aH 12VDC --Model UB-8D AGM Universal Power Group, Out Back Flex Max 80 controller, MIDMNE4448 Midnite Solar E-Panels with Magnum Energy Sinewave Inverter.

I don't think I can send it back to the company. I could also try to sell them.

Are you saying to re-wire the battery's for 12 volt instead of 48 volt the inverter needs 48 volt to work. I guess that I really messed up---this stuff cost over $5000.00 dollars..

I just thought that the price of diesel fuel was going to keep going up so dc power is the way to go.

If the forest service ever cuts down the marketable trees I could get wind or solar power???

Thanks for all the info...

bearbutt95 · « **Reply #11 on:** March 10, 2008, 08:44:01 PM »

When I measure this am I going to get reading's from the battery or the DC motor--or a combination of everything?

Do I just clamp to the post's on the battery or where???

Thanks for all the info...

ghurd · « **Reply #12 on:** March 10, 2008, 09:16:11 PM »

The battery voltage and the motor voltage will be the same, except for about 0.7V.

The motor can not be at 90V when the batteries are at 12V or 48V or whatever.

I think that is what you are missing.

Just need to know the battery voltage and the amps flowing into the battery.

A HP is 746W. A gas motor will be straining to make half that many watts into a battery.

G-

CmeBREW · « **Reply #13 on:** March 10, 2008, 09:54:09 PM »

Sorry to hear about your troubles.

You paid alot of money for that system. If it were me, I would try to make that company give me the CORRECT CHARGER/inverter for my specific situation. They gave you the wrong controller for what you needed. Like Kurt said, you need one with a DIVERSION LOAD control-- so that when the batteries are fully charged , it will automatically divert the power to a 48V water heating (submerged)element until you then can shut off the back-up gas generator later. (Thus preventing any over-charging)

I'm no expert on your specific batteries, but I wouldn't charge that 48v battery bank over 60 volts (60 volts being 'about' full charge??) until you get the problem solved with that company.

My brother has a cabin in the woods similar to yours. We are thinking about just cutting out some of the branches in order to put solar panels on the roof.

Maybe you could cut-some branches out of the trees and put some solar panels in??

Volvo farmer · « **Reply #14 on:** March 10, 2008, 10:08:29 PM »

This is really confusing.

Clarify... You have no RE sources, only a homebrew fossil-fuel generator making DC into a Outback charge controller, into a 48V battery bank?

Why is a dump load used for this configuration?

CmeBREW · « **Reply #15 on:** March 11, 2008, 09:03:14 AM »

I believe he has no solar panels since his cabin is in the woods.

Rather, it looks like that company sold him 4 batteries (1000ah total), a 'control box' (Midnite...) , a solar ONLY controller, and a power inverter.

I believe he is only using the gas generator for power, but can' keep it from overcharging the batteries.

http://store.altenergystore.com/Power-Panels/Midnite-Solar-Power-Panels/Midnite-Solar-E-Panel-Power-
Panel-w-4400W-MagnaSine/p5800/

http://store.altenergystore.com/Charge-Controllers/Solar-Charge-Controllers/MPPT-Solar-Charge-Contro
llers/Outback-Solar-Charge-Controllers-MPPT/Outback-Flexmax-80-Charge-Controller/p6084/

I suspect he really needs a DIVERSION LOAD (possible) controller.

Also, make sure the Electrician you get really knows about Renewable energy systems.

finnsawyer · « **Reply #16 on:** March 11, 2008, 10:17:22 AM »

Since you have the diesel generator, have you considered trying to make your own bio-diesel fuel? While that will require effort and time on your part it might be feasible. Almost anywhere you go there are fast food places producing used vegetable oil. There are posts here detailing such activities. Do a search. Then you could sell the stuff you don't need. I mean the electronics, not the fuel, as that would bring in the regulators.

CmeBREW · « **Reply #17 on:** March 11, 2008, 02:24:05 PM »

I think they should have sold you this:(as Kurt said)

http://store.altenergystore.com/Charge-Controllers/Diversion-Load-Controllers/Morningstar-Tristar-Ts
-60-60A-Chg-Ctlr-WO-Display/p807/

With this charger you can see the Volts and how many AMPS (ammeter) is charging into the batteries.

You can still get it and it will DIVERT the charging 40 amps automatically to a heating element(s) until you can shut off the gas generator at your convenience.

But you have to have the correct 48V heating element WATTS to balance it right.

I suspect You must have a generator similar to:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Wind-Turbine-Generator-Permanent-Magnet-Alternator-PMA_W0QQitemZ170199601752QQcm
dZViewItem?hash=item170199601752

Which looks like it will do 40 amps or so into a 48 volt batt bank at 2200rpm.

You can always keep the nice Solar charge controller incase you add solar panels later.

bearbutt95 · « **Reply #18 on:** March 11, 2008, 02:35:00 PM »

That looks like the one.

bearbutt95 · « **Reply #19 on:** March 11, 2008, 02:41:38 PM »

But you have to have the correct 48V heating element WATTS to balance it right.. Where can a person find this item--locally nobody has anything close to this-- the smallest is 1000 watts at 118 volts.

CmeBREW · « **Reply #20 on:** March 11, 2008, 04:10:06 PM »

I have seen those Elements on the internet somewhere but can't find it right now.

However, I think A simplier, cheaper, and much easier way is to just do as Ghurd said in your previous post:

"Maybe a simple dump controller.

When the battery is full, the ignition is SHORTED and the motor stops."

I personally would try the simple way first as Ghurd said with a a 48vdc Relay like:

http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2008031116350615&item=11-2337&catname=

The (control) coil of the RELAY is to be activated by the DIVERSION CHARGE CONTROLLER automatically when the Batteries reach full charge.

So you would hook the POSITIVE from the CONTROLLER DIVERSION terminal to the Positive of the RELAY COIL. And then hook the NEGETIVE of the Relay COIL to the system GROUND.

On the 5hp gas engine there should be the high voltage coil near the magneeto.

Jump a wire from the wire that goes to the coil and hook it to one side of the relay contacts and then hook the other side of the relay contact to the GROUND of the gas engine.

I can't promise that that particular relay will work though. I think it will. There is a slight chance though that the high voltage from the Magneeto coil could spark across the contacts of the RELAY and short the gas engine to soon. I'm not sure.

This is why you really need an Electrician who has good experience/knowledge with setting up Renewable energy systems.(Dump loads, etc.)

I have never actually tried this myself though.

Has anyone here ever set-up an automatic 'Shorting circuit' like this from a Diversion Controller in order to stop a gas back-up generator automatically??

bearbutt95 · « **Reply #21 on:** March 11, 2008, 08:19:12 PM »

I think it could be wired in line of the spark plug when the Diversion Controller makes contact the relay would open and shut down the engine---no more spark to the spark plug.

I think that could work.

Thank you very much.

dbcollen · « **Reply #22 on:** March 12, 2008, 10:45:01 AM »

The problem is with only 250 ah @48 volts the batteries will be pushed into absorb, in very little time at 40 amps, the diversion load will need to take a small amount of power initially and progressively take more as the batteries approach full. it should take about 2 hours at absorb voltage (57.6) to get the batteries reasonably full. The out back flexmax 80 will work perfectly in this regard as a diversion controller, it has an AUX relay built in, the flexmax 80 has a setting to divert with a solid state relay, which works really well. You will need a SSR rated to 60 amps @ 100vdc or better, with an appropriate heatsink, and a pair of 48 volt heating elements, Which I sell by the way. the SSR is trigered by the aux relay, and pulse width is adjusted by the controller to keep the batteries at the right voltage. NEVER use a mechanical relay for diversion, they are way too prone to failure, usually from the contacts fusing together and draining your batteries completely.

Dustin

bearbutt95 · « **Reply #23 on:** March 12, 2008, 12:17:22 PM »

This is what I have---I believe a total of 1000 amp hour battery bank( 4-12 volt battery's @ 250ah each).

I am interested in purchasing 48 volt heating elements

---5 hp gas engine turning (half throttle) the PM--DC motor @ 2200 rpm and puts out about 55 volts DC and about 45 amps.

---48 volt battery bank using 4--250aH 12VDC --Model UB-8D AGM

Universal Power Group

Out Back Flex Max 80 controller

Dump load---an old electric hot water heater-- used as a pre-heater for home water heater.

MIDMNE4448 Midnite Solar E-Panels with Magnum Energy Sinewave Inverter.

I got myself into this mess---Do you think it would make sense to connect a remote control system like they have on the Honda gen-sets---Then I could just start and stop it every few hours or so just until I can get solar or wind system working depending on the tree situation???

Thanks much

CmeBREW · « **Reply #24 on:** March 12, 2008, 01:58:32 PM »

I would listen to Dustin. After talking with someone, I realize my idea using a 'normal' relay would NOT work for many reasons. You need something that is going to be very reliable and according to code. Dustin is right, you have only 250AH @48v worth of batteries since they have to be in series.

In order for your expensive batteries to last, you MUST allow them to go thru the 3 phases of charging, not just the 'Bulk charge' alone. Evidently, the only way to do that is to have the Dump load set-up as Dustin said.

Sounds like he knows what he is saying.

I see I was wrong about the Flexmax 80 also. I was wondering about that 'Aux relay' but not sure. It fooled me because they didn't even mention the word 'Diversion load' in the list of functions.

If I were you, I would PRINT OUT Dustins comment and give it to a QUALIFIED 'Renewable energy electrican', and DEMAND that he install all those things as he said to do. He said you can buy the elements you need from him.

Thanks Dustin for your experienced comment.

dbcollen · « **Reply #25 on:** March 12, 2008, 03:38:02 PM »

I can provide you with water heating elements for 22.5 amps @48v (1100-1300 watts) for $90 each including shipping.

you may be able to find them cheaper elsewhere.

If you are interested contact me at MadRiverWind@gotsky.com

I can also provide you with detailed instructions on how to hook it up, you will need to supply the SSRs I use 2 rated for 30A in parllel, one rated at 60 amps would also work. Crydom is a good brand, just make sure it is a DC SSR, with 12 volt input on the switching (most are 3-32vdc, which is fine) and DC on the load as well, AC SSRs will not switch dc. also the heatsink that comes with some SSRs are woefully inadequate, make sure you mount it (them) to a fair sized heatsink.

Dustin

ghurd · « **Reply #26 on:** March 12, 2008, 04:40:41 PM »

The REAL problem is he isn't making 57.6V open circuit,

let alone at 40A.

Under the conditions he stated, he'll never reach 56V,

let alone 57.6V.

IF the batteries make it to 57.6V (14.4V each) under those conditions,

the dump load won't need to be large.

IF the batteries make it to 57.6V, it will be slow enough for a relay to stop the motor and the batteries to be full enough.

I see no point in burning that much gas, so often, to save cheap batteries. Maybe that's just me.

Bearbutt, you need to look into other pulley options.

The current ratio is a complete waste of gas.

G-

CmeBREW · « **Reply #27 on:** March 12, 2008, 07:43:59 PM »

Ghurd brings up a very good point. Now I am nice and confused! I found the alternator (It's NOT a DC motor/ it's rectified to DC) he specified here:

http://www.windbluepower.com/Permanent_Magnet_Alternator_Wind_Blue_Motor_Wind_p/dc-512.htm

I thought the voltage he was reading was the CLAMPED voltage with the batteries. But now I see that 55 volts is really just OPEN voltage. So it can't be doing 40 amps as Ghurd said. That changes everything. Also notice the output chart for that DC512 WindBlue altenator is with the Ammeter SHORTED. As Flux has stated countless times, shorting the ammeter is meaningless. That chart is deceptive advertising. I doubt it could do half that.

That alternator is best for a 12v battery bank.

According to their chart, the voltage can't go any higher than 50v or so (even at over 2000rpm), which would make it worthless for a 48 volt batt system??? Yet he says that is keeps over-charging and boiling out the batteries???

According to those charts, it shouldn't be charging anything into his 48volt battery bank since the voltage is not going high enough. Got me totally confused.

Here are the batteries he has:

http://store.altenergystore.com/Batteries/Batteries-Sealed-Agm/Universal-Ub8D-12V-250Ah-Sealed-Agm-B
attery/p2006/

Bearbutt, are you sure the batteries are not hooked in parallel for 12 volts??

(That means all the + are hooked together on the batts ,and all the - are hooked together)

Could you show us a picture?

bearbutt95 · « **Reply #28 on:** March 12, 2008, 08:14:33 PM »

My camp is 75 miles away I ll try to get up there soon but as far as I remember they are + to - that should be right right?

But after reading what everybody is saying I bet that they are not???

The price of gas really is making travel to anywhere quit expensive!!!

Maybe I should of bought this from e-bay for $35.00 dollars(2.25 HP 260V treadmill duty DC Motor (generator)I could of saved about $100.00 oh well live and learn.

ghurd · « **Reply #29 on:** March 12, 2008, 08:26:36 PM »

OR you could get that same treadmill motor from The Surplus Center for about $20,

where the ebay guy gets them.

And they even include the flywheel.

Depends on which treadmill motor.

G-

CmeBREW · « **Reply #30 on:** March 12, 2008, 08:57:09 PM »

The batteries are hooked up correctly if you have this 48v Inverter as you said:

http://store.altenergystore.com/Inverters/Off-Grid-No-Utility-Needs-Batteries/3000-to-5500-Watts/Mag
num-MS-AE-4448-Inverter-Charger/p5839/

Is this the Power Inverter you have? If it is, then it is for a 48v battery bank hooked up the way you said. It is correct. DO NOT CHANGE THE CONNECTIONS on the batteries.

Are you sure you have the DC-512 Bluewind alternator as in the link I showed? They make several different models. Maybe you have a different one?

I have a question: Do you leave that backup generator ON the entire time you are there?

It would help everyone here if they knew how many AMPS are flowing into the batteries during charging. If you have the book to your CHARGE CONTROLLER, can you see if this controller displays (on the little LCD screen) the AMPS (ammeter) during charging---and if so, what is the number it is showing?

bearbutt95 · « **Reply #31 on:** March 12, 2008, 09:08:02 PM »

I live in the U.P. of Michigan where they say that we have 6 months of winter and 3 months of hard sliding... I can not find any info locally for help. I did find one place that was kind of close to me I dug up a phone number--I called it and it was a answering service and to date they still have not returned my call--maybe 3 months ago..

So anyway I started searching the web--didn't know what I was reading but it looked good. I bought the wrong stuff.--(P.S. I did my own wiring, built my house, did my own plumbing). But this stuff is Greek to me. I also believe this RE is going to be our future and our kids future so I really would like to get this working. Even my power company could not give me any info. All the places are 100 miles away or farther...

I feel like starting over---So here goes in anybodies opinion what is the best equipment I should of bought??? I mean from scratch... if you could please explain the needed equipment--leave the stuff I all ready have out. I would really like to have 240 volts if possible! I have many trees so not much wind or sun..

My daughter and her husband wants to build a cabin near mine and she would need power too. But she might be able to use wind--maybe solar, we are pretty far north.

Maybe some of my stuff that I can't use she might be able to use I hope!!!

Thanks for all the advice it is very much appreciated...

bearbutt95 · « **Reply #32 on:** March 12, 2008, 09:30:42 PM »

This is the one http://store.altenergystore.com/Power-Panels/Midnite-Solar-Power-Panels/Midnite-Solar-E-Panel-Power-
Panel-w-4400W-MagnaSine/p5800/

No I do not have the generator on all the time.(But I did let it run about 6 or 7 hours) before all you guys helped me..

I guess I got the wrong controller the outback is for solar---I think I might get the one from Morningstar from--- http://store.altenergystore.com/Charge-Controllers/Diversion-Load-Controllers/Morningstar-Tristar-Ts
-60-60A-Chg-Ctlr-WO-Display/p807/

Before I blew out the meter (hand held 2 so far) I think it was just below 20 amps.

I am not getting any numbers from the Midnite panel maybe I burnt this up to!!! I hope not, since I boiled the battery's I have not used any electric from the inverter. I have still been using my old diesel generator...

News:

Author Topic: Do I have this figured out O.K.??? or not. (Read 8525 times)