Author Topic: Tubular rotor?  (Read 2253 times)

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wdesilvey

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Tubular rotor?
« on: July 06, 2008, 09:34:16 PM »
Hello again!


If one had a tubular piece of steel as a potential rotor, would you mount the magnets on it with or without dividers?


What I mean is, you would have mayhap 3 or 4 coil/magnet arrangements throughout this setup.


Would you sequester each individual arrangement (ie shield it) from the other sections or not?


Thanks,


Bill

« Last Edit: July 06, 2008, 09:34:16 PM by (unknown) »

wooferhound

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Re: Tubular rotor?
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2008, 04:17:28 PM »
What would you like to divide or shield your magnets/coils from ?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2008, 04:17:28 PM by wooferhound »

wdesilvey

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Re: Tubular rotor?
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2008, 04:22:32 PM »
From each other??


I though there would be some type of flux "bleedover" (likely not correct terminology, but best I can conceive @ this moment) from one set to the next.

« Last Edit: July 06, 2008, 04:22:32 PM by wdesilvey »

electrondady1

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Re: Tubular rotor?
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2008, 03:44:18 PM »
so you are talking about a single rotor radial ?
« Last Edit: July 09, 2008, 03:44:18 PM by electrondady1 »

wdesilvey

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Re: Tubular rotor?
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2008, 06:43:43 AM »
Or multiples within a tubular enclosure. What I meant was, assuming multiples, do you need to isolate (magnet wise) each successive set from the next?
« Last Edit: July 11, 2008, 06:43:43 AM by wdesilvey »

wooferhound

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Re: Tubular rotor?
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2008, 04:17:24 PM »
As best as I know, there is no way to shield magnets from each other anyway, so I would'nt bother. The only good way to stop the interaction between magnets close together, is to spread them apart which isn't always possible.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2008, 04:17:24 PM by wooferhound »

electrondady1

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Re: Tubular rotor?
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2008, 07:19:30 AM »
wdesilvery,

i can,t realy get a picture of what you are talking about .

i did this sketch of a dual rotor radial.

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/2793/dual_rotor_radial_Small.jpg

if you are talking about a single rotor with no flux return path then yes the flux

travels sideways to the next mag.

« Last Edit: July 13, 2008, 07:19:30 AM by electrondady1 »

fungus

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Re: Tubular rotor?
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2008, 07:26:08 AM »
« Last Edit: July 13, 2008, 07:26:08 AM by fungus »

vawtman

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Re: Tubular rotor?
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2008, 01:09:07 PM »
Hi Bill


 The idea of the second rotor is to concentrate the flux through the stator.If not the flux will curve back to the steel it's mounted on or find a nearby mag to play with.Called Leakage Flux but there maybe a more technical term.

 Your use of the word "tubular"confuses me.Would you clarify that.


 Thank's

 Mark

« Last Edit: July 13, 2008, 01:09:07 PM by vawtman »

electrondady1

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Re: Tubular rotor?
« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2008, 10:14:20 PM »
sorry about the wacky link.

 don't know what to do about it.

it's in my files under "dual rotor radial small jpg"

 
« Last Edit: July 13, 2008, 10:14:20 PM by electrondady1 »

wdesilvey

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Re: Tubular rotor?
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2008, 09:24:04 AM »
Mark:


Well, EVERYONE USUQALLY comments re my supposed excellent command of the English language, but I see that I just aint doing so hot here! Likely d/t the relative newness of the subject to me.


Ok, imagine a steel pipe a few feet long. The outer portion containing the coils is (for the sake of description) large diameter PVC. On the steel pipe (rotor, armature, or whatever proper term is) are several sets of magnets (maybe 6-8 per set?)


Around each individual set are the corresponding coils. (PVC pipe mount.) So, what I'm asking is: is each individual set separated by something resistant to penetration of the preceding set's magnetism (SS or whatever is appropriate) or is it all continuously open end to end?


Thanks,


Bill

« Last Edit: July 14, 2008, 09:24:04 AM by wdesilvey »

TomW

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Re: Tubular rotor?
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2008, 11:25:17 AM »
« Last Edit: July 14, 2008, 11:25:17 AM by TomW »

DanG

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Re: Tubular rotor?
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2008, 02:27:51 PM »
Letsee...


When producing rare-earth magnets they map out what is needed to achieve either the maximum or intended focus sets in flux projections of the pole faces and quench that onto the blank's 'memory' with a huge pulse of electromagnetism - thus a standard neodymium mag will already be resistant to bleeding over onto adjacent magnets by design (also a smaller non-pole surface area with the mags we use)


There will be some lateral attraction since in an alternator the adjacent magnets poles alternate but it is only a fraction of what is present on the true pole faces of the magnet. Having an iron backing seriously helps too.


What was missing in your question might have been the scale of the tube - 16-inch diameter outer pipe and 14-inch inner pipe, etc.. This idea is where a lot of pioneers in home built wind power started by using junk brake drums on their original spindles/hubs/bearings.


Where this gets difficult is there is no adjustment possible of the air-gap, the coils formed need compound curve winding to match radius and the magnets themselves need to have complete iron backing contact so would need to either be custom formed, have machined flats on the rotors, or adapter pillow segments that mate evenly with the curving steel pipe. That is not counting the increase in difficulty of finding material and making a whole assembly and balancing that one-up piece if you aren't using automotive parts that is vastly simplified by using trailer hubs and plate steel.


It is a fine idea but there are too many other variables (blade length, profiles, stator and drop wire run details) that a dual-rotor axial flux adjustable air-gap proves very helpful with for DIY wind power.

« Last Edit: July 14, 2008, 02:27:51 PM by DanG »

wdesilvey

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Re: Tubular rotor?
« Reply #13 on: July 14, 2008, 05:01:59 PM »
Please define compound curve winding?


Thanks,

Bill

« Last Edit: July 14, 2008, 05:01:59 PM by wdesilvey »

spinningmagnets

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Re: Tubular rotor?
« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2008, 06:05:35 PM »
Disclaimer: I haven't built one yet, but,...


This sounds like a radial configuration, like a soda can spinning inside a slightly larger can. (if an "axial" is like one pancake spinning next to a stationary pancake)


"Zubbly" was the master of the radial motor conversion to PMA. When building a radial from scratch, it may be useful to look at some zubbly conversion pics. Here's some from my file:


http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2008/4/18/14151/1216

Good pics of rotor, Coils are skewed, so mags are straight.


http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2008/6/1/16542/40444

pics, 3/4 HP, 220/380 VAC/1440 RPM's, skewed rectangular magnets, 48 VDC at 340 RPM, ~560 watts.


http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/7/22/82515/9969

GOOD PICS !, 7.5 Hp 230 volt single phase, 36 slots, 54V@ 250rpm


http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/12/17/22270/167

good pics, British 3HP 380V, now 260V @ 1500 rpm


http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/3/13/214531/690

5HP Baldor, good pics + magnet/coil drawings

« Last Edit: July 14, 2008, 06:05:35 PM by spinningmagnets »

DanG

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Re: Tubular rotor?
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2008, 06:09:33 PM »
Coil wound as almost as usual (around the a form) with the difference of both faces (and everything in between) matches the radius of pipe 'annular' rotor faces for minimum and even air gap?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2008, 06:09:33 PM by DanG »

DanG

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Re: Tubular rotor?
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2008, 07:33:14 PM »
http://tinyurl.com/windblat-mag


These folks' direct drive wind turbines use annular alternators - not dual rotors though.


Link is to their trade magazine that has some close ups in some of the issues...


Two megawatt output on their turbine diameter of 82 meters, with no gearbox...

« Last Edit: July 14, 2008, 07:33:14 PM by DanG »

kurt

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Re: Tubular rotor?
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2008, 01:26:38 PM »
electrondady1 scoop really don't like it when you upload and post a file or a link to a file with spaces in the file name and double spaces give it a total fit if you wanna avoid problems in the future rename your files to something that is alloneword before uploading them to the server it is a known scoop bug the _ that the server puts in the spaces in the file names drives scoops auto format absolutely batty and messes everything up....
« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 01:26:38 PM by kurt »

electrondady1

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« Last Edit: July 16, 2008, 06:59:34 PM by electrondady1 »