Author Topic: Low Torque, Low RPM Generator Design (Help)  (Read 18116 times)

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jcgivens21

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Low Torque, Low RPM Generator Design (Help)
« on: October 11, 2008, 05:33:58 PM »
Salutations.


This is my first post on these boards, and as such I would like say that although I have done pretty extensive research in a short amount of time, I am having a very difficult time finding reliable references. I will start with a small amount of background.


I'm in my senior year at a college in Tennessee, USA. My senior design project is to work with a company (name disclosed for NDA reasons) and build a low torque, low rpm high output electric generator. We have a design that is unlike any we've ever seen, and I can't give it away just yet; however, we do know that we want to use a dual rotor, single state axial flux air gap design due to its increased efficiency over other designs.


Now onto the good stuff. I've been searching, reading, and scrounging through IEEE documents, textbooks, online articles/pdfs/forums, etc. and am finding a huge lack of actual design information for variable speed permanent magnet generators. What I do find are a lot of measured quantities, and those are great, but really I need to be able to prove a design before testing. These forums are the best resource I've been able to find so far on wind turbine design and refinement (thanks for all the good resources so far). What I REALLY need to find is a "brushless PM generator for dummies" reference for someone who has the ability to understand the material, but not the background to fully implement and prove the design from the ground up.


My call out to these forums is a request for any relevant information that would help us design a new generator on paper. While most of the posts in these forums are great, they are not quite what I'm looking for, but chances are that some of you guys know where to go to get the information I need. I will try to give a brief rundown of what I'm looking for below.


How do you find the actual voltage and/or amperage that will be generated from a varying speed, S (in rpm, mph, or m/s, any of these are fine)? I have not been able to fully model this output because I haven't been able to find any good sources on how these "Power Curves" are actually calculated. It seems that every graph I see is a measured output. Is this curve based on the strength of the magnets, size of the magnets, number of coils/turns in the stator, the losses in the conductors/air gap/cogging/etc. and so on and so forth?


Any help received will be greatly beneficial, as I am simply scrounging for resources at this point. Optimizing the design will come later, but really right now I'm just looking for formulas. Lots and lots of nasty calculus, algebra, etc. that explains what parameters need to be either supplied, defined, or calculated. What that data truly means in terms of the system as a whole.


Many thanks in advance,

Jeff Givens

« Last Edit: October 11, 2008, 05:33:58 PM by (unknown) »

Flux

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Re: Low Torque, Low RPM Generator Design (Help)
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2008, 12:40:17 PM »
"I'm in my senior year at a college in Tennessee, USA. My senior design project is to work with a company (name disclosed for NDA reasons) and build a low torque, low rpm high output electric generator."


Where do we start with a question like this. Firstly if it is low torque and low speed then it is low power.


For a given power there is a direct relationship between torque and speed and that is not going to change after 150 years.


Probably you won't find much of the data you are looking for because the few pioneers of these axial air gap machines haven't written the book yet. There is over a century's worth of design information for conventional slotted core alternators so no problem there.


The early ironless air gap work was done by Ferranti, Mordey, Siemens and a few others before the toothed iron core was developed but it was too long ago for there to be much on this modern wonderful internet thing where you can get all your answers just for asking. The early stuff was also single phase as well.


One of the things I like about these air gap things is that they are far simpler to understand and even a non qualified idiot like myself can make a reasonable stab at understanding them and even predicting performance.


I have just deleted much of what I have just written on the basis that if you have nothing good to say, best to say nothing.


I am not sure how much help you will get here, this is basically a practical discussion board for people who want to do practical things. I am sure we have some highly qualified people here but they normally contribute practical stuff and I  am not sure how far they will want to go to give you all the algebra and calculus to fool someone into giving you a qualification.


Flux

« Last Edit: October 11, 2008, 12:40:17 PM by Flux »

jcgivens21

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Re: Low Torque, Low RPM Generator Design (Help)
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2008, 02:15:32 PM »
Thanks for the response. Maybe I gave off the wrong impression with the initial post. I'm not looking to "fool" anyone. I simply don't have to time to build different models and test them. What I'm looking for is "resources." They don't have to be spot-on resources with exact formulas and calculation. I'll do that. I am just looking for a good reference to get started--of which I have found none so far. I have no problem with running with the data if I can start crawling first.


Resources. That's what I'm looking for...I do understand that this is a "practical" board, but there's nothing unpractical about theory and calculation if it is well-founded. I find it hard to believe that everyone who reads this board simply takes on "projects" and does absolutely no calculation at all. Someone here has to have some good references that I haven't stumbled onto yet. THAT is what I'm hoping to accomplish by posting here.


The bottom line is, even though this is for my personal gain, there are others I'm sure that could benefit from a thread like this if it developed into something worthwhile.


"I have just deleted much of what I have just written on the basis that if you have nothing good to say, best to say nothing."


I disagree. Say what you have to say. Maybe the problem with my post is that I was so general with my initial post. Let me give some specifics about where I stand now in the design and hopefully some good discussion will follow.


Criteria:

-> 200 RPM @ 12 MPH, producing 1kW. (Hell I'd be happy with 500W at this point)


Where I'm at now:

-> Double Rotor, Single Stator Axial Flux Air Gap Generator Design (This is seems to be the most solid design for power output / efficiency that I've been able to find)

-> RPM = 120f/P (in my specifical case)... 200 = 120(60)P...P = 36 (36 poles seems a bit high)

-> T = (HP)(5252)/RPM = (Power)(5252)
{(746)(200)} ... T = (0.0352)P = 17.6 Nm

-> P = (0.5)(Efficiency from 0.0 to 0.59)(1.225)(A)(V^3); Maximum power from wind, of course

-> Use thing diameter stranded wires for the stator armature conductors to reduce skin effect losses (may be negligible at lower frequencies)

-> Consider using blocking magnets to increase the intensity of the magnetic field

-> Leakage losses / Eddy Current losses must be taken into account (I've got this one covered)

-> Magnet to coil ratio should be ~4:3 (I haven't been able to verify this anywhere, just seen it mentioned)

-> Use concentrated stator windings rather than distributed stator windings (q factor < or = to 1)

« Last Edit: October 11, 2008, 02:15:32 PM by jcgivens21 »

Flux

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Re: Low Torque, Low RPM Generator Design (Help)
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2008, 02:49:34 PM »
Yes so many first posts are so confusing that it is surprising anyone answers them.


I am still not sure what you want, there is a lot of basic calculations here and you seem to have found a lot of it.


You have got the starting point from the energy in the wind.


"Criteria:

-> 200 RPM @ 12 MPH, producing 1kW. (Hell I'd be happy with 500W at this point)"


Not sure why you have started from there, for 1kW at 12mph you are looking at a big machine somewhere in the 30ft diameter region.


For a start how about you think at tip speed ratio. That is the ratio of your prop tip speed to the wind speed. Realistic tsr is from about 4 to 7 or perhaps 8. If you think about your case I don't see why you are thinking about 200 rpm.


Either you have not got to grips with tsr or perhaps once again you haven't explained your ideas as you intended. If you mean starting at 200rpm in a 12mph wind but with a maximum output ( in some unspecified wind) of 1kW that would be a different proposition.


As far as the alternator goes you can produce any power you want at any speed, that is simple enough if you can afford it. You have to tie the alternator characteristics with what is available in the wind if you want to get anywhere.


Forget skin effect, blocking magnets and other crap one thing is certain you will find everything on the internet but not all is useful, you have to sort the good stuff from the crap. What on earth is q factor, not the usual L/R for resonant circuits surely?


Too much maths, not enough basic understanding.


Flux

« Last Edit: October 11, 2008, 02:49:34 PM by Flux »

oztules

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Re: Low Torque, Low RPM Generator Design (Help)
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2008, 03:29:56 PM »
DanB built one better than you want here http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/1/25/16542/0712

All the details can be found as well


1.5kw@150rpm..... little more powerful than you require perhaps. You'll need an odd combination of tsr and diameter to drive it in a 12 mph wind....


..........oztules

« Last Edit: October 11, 2008, 03:29:56 PM by oztules »
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jcgivens21

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Re: Low Torque, Low RPM Generator Design (Help)
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2008, 04:18:23 PM »
Thanks for responding again Flux. First, to answer this question:


What is q-factor?

Answer: q-factor is the number of slots per pole per phase (q = slots/pole/phase).

What good does this do me? Well, the short version is that by having a lower q-factor, it will reduce the stator manufacturing costs and the Joule losses in the windings.


"Not sure why you have started from there, for 1kW at 12mph you are looking at a big machine somewhere in the 30ft diameter region. "


The reason I started from there is those are the parameters in which our client asked us to start pursuing information.


"As far as the alternator goes you can produce any power you want at any speed, that is simple enough if you can afford it. You have to tie the alternator characteristics with what is available in the wind if you want to get anywhere."


Can you show me where I can find out how to calculate this?


"Either you have not got to grips with tsr or perhaps once again you haven't explained your ideas as you intended. If you mean starting at 200rpm in a 12mph wind but with a maximum output ( in some unspecified wind) of 1kW that would be a different proposition."


Let me give a little more clarification. At 12 miles per hour, I would like the rotor to spin at 200 revolutions per minute and be able to produce 1kW of power at that wind speed / RPM. That being said, one of the unfortunate aspects of our project is that we are not concerned with the design of the blades, simply designing the generator.


"Too much maths, not enough basic understanding."


I won't deny this, though I am trying very hard to remedy it. Keep up the posts, Flux. Even if you don't see the effect, your posts are helping. I hope more will get involved over time.


Jeff

« Last Edit: October 11, 2008, 04:18:23 PM by jcgivens21 »

jcgivens21

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Re: Low Torque, Low RPM Generator Design (Help)
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2008, 04:31:38 PM »
Thanks, Dan. I will look into this. I gave it a brief runover and it looked solid.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2008, 04:31:38 PM by jcgivens21 »

TheCasualTraveler

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Re: Low Torque, Low RPM Generator Design (Help)
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2008, 05:00:51 PM »
""We have a design that is unlike any we've ever seen, and I can't give it away just yet.""


""That being said, one of the unfortunate aspects of our project is that we are not concerned with the design of the blades, simply designing the generator.""


     Add 1.5 KW @ 200 RPM and I think were looking at  another incredible breakthrough rooftop Vertical Wind Axis Turbine design.


     Seriously JC, if you can't disclose your secret at least tell us are you talking VAWT or HAWT?

« Last Edit: October 11, 2008, 05:00:51 PM by TheCasualTraveler »

ghurd

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Re: Low Torque, Low RPM Generator Design (Help)
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2008, 05:35:21 PM »
Maybe an overlapping coil, 7 or 11 phase, with Halbach array design?


I think it has a 99% probability of something that has already been designed, built and tested, but due to nomenclature JC hasn't found the right photos.


I expect it has a 90% probability of being similar to something Ed already made.


Mostly I am curious how anyone can supply any proper or related fomulae for the secret design, that is unlike anything ever seen.

Maybe that's just me.

G-

« Last Edit: October 11, 2008, 05:35:21 PM by ghurd »
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TheCasualTraveler

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Re: Low Torque, Low RPM Generator Design (Help)
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2008, 08:53:53 PM »
Vertical Wind Axis Turbine


should have read


Vertical Axis Wind Turbine

« Last Edit: October 11, 2008, 08:53:53 PM by TheCasualTraveler »

spinningmagnets

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Re: Low Torque, Low RPM Generator Design (Help)
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2008, 10:44:39 PM »
Jeff, a 3-coil/4-magnet ratio will give you a 3-phase output. A 4-phase machine (whatever that would look like) would require 4 rectifiers instead of only 3, a 2-phase machine would have more ripple/flutter, so 3-phase is smoother.


Getting 200 RPM's from a 12 MPH wind seems to me to be a result of the blades, which you have stated is not your teams concern.


As you probably already know, Watts are the sum of Volts X Amps, so its very important what voltage you want to generate. I have to assume that your sponsor wants to end up with a product that can be sold to the public, so I will further assume that you will not want 12 volts.


If you want the power to pass through a smart charger into a battery pack, and then convert the stored power through an inverter into 110-120 VAC, I will assume for the sake of obtaining affordable and reliable off-the-shelf components that you will offer the sponsor a 24-volt and/or a 48-volt generator.


One-Kw would be:

A.  24V at 42 Amps

B.  48V at 21 Amps


Instead of Googling the site, I recommend scanning through the last two years of "wind" postings, and copy every paragraph that lists something like "I used X number of wraps of Y gauge wire and got 24/48-volts at Z RPM's". 10% more or fewer RPM's will usually result in 10% more or fewer volts, so you can pro-rate that coil (using math, for a graphchart) at near 200 RPM's.


You should be able to make a useable rough chart as a result. As the RPM's rise, the volts will also rise until it reaches the cut-in point when the volts are finally slightly higher than the battery voltage. Any further increase in RPM's will translate into rising amps. Too many amps and the stator will overheat, so the machine should furl away from the wind before that point.


The machines the Dans have made and documented are as good as anyone here knows how to produce. Find the specs from several different sizes, and copy the magnet rotors of the machine that is closest to your needs (6-coil/8-magnets per rotor, 9C/12M, etc).


If the design RPM is set, and you need to double the magnet speed to reach your voltage goals, you have to double the circumference and the number of poles. A bigger diameter PMA will need a bigger prop. Too big a prop and the RPM's drop, too small and there's not enough torque. If Flux says you need a 30', I believe him.


After you've made the rotors, you can make one test coil and set it between the rotors for a bench test. Since you want to make some Amps at 200 RPM, you will want to rise to your cut-in voltage at a lower RPM, I'll guess 160 RPM?


Research Star/Wye or Delta phase connection. I "think" Star is popular because it produces more volts at a lower RPM. I also "think" each coil only has to make 1/3rd of the final volts (yes?). IF this is true, your test coil should make either 8 or 16 volts at 160 RPM's (does that sound right?) for a 24 or 48 volt machine.


Sorry to be so fuzzy about the last part. I would have researched it more, but, when it comes time for me to build, I'm just going to copy a machine that fits my new site wind profile.


If your test coil voltage is too low at 160 RPM, wind a new coil with more wraps of thinner wire. If its too high, use fewer wraps of thicker wire.

« Last Edit: October 11, 2008, 10:44:39 PM by spinningmagnets »

stop4stuff

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Re: Low Torque, Low RPM Generator Design (Help)
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2008, 02:43:54 AM »
This might help ;)


Calculating Induced Voltage in a Coil


Faraday's Law can be used to determine the total induced electromotive force, or voltage, in a coil. Assuming that the turns of the coil are closely wound, the total inducted voltage of a coil can be calculated using the following formula:


E = - N (DF/Dt)


where E is the induced electromotive force in volts, N is the number of turns in the coil, DF is the change in magnetic force in webers, and Dt is the amount of time in seconds in which the change in magnetic force takes place.


as found at;

http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/electromag/electricity/inductance.html


also google for;

Fleming's Right Hand Rule


Lorentz Force Law


&


magnetic force current wire

« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 02:43:54 AM by stop4stuff »

Flux

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Re: Low Torque, Low RPM Generator Design (Help)
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2008, 05:50:51 AM »
Some abbreviations are universally recognised ( at least within certain fields). Others are something chosen by an author and may be common in a certain country of certain industry. Any respectable paper will define all the factors at the start.


If you decide to decide to define q as slots/pole/phase then fine , we all know that you are not using the common definition of q as the ratio of L/R.


Why you are worrying about slots/pole/phase for an air gap machine with no slots is beyond me but that is another matter.


Others have already suspected that this is not for battery charging but if it is then as pointed out Dan's 20ft alternator is more than capable of 1kW at 200rpm so you are not doing anything new.


If it is for battery charging and you want to understand the basics I will run through it but I don't intend to do anything that is going to waste my time.


I sure wouldn't want to trust you to design my new and revolutionary product but I suppose if it was top secret then it may be awkward giving it to someone who has basic knowledge in case they found a flaw in this new revolutionary thing that will change the world.


I wish now that I hadn't deleted the comments I first wrote, they were more relevant than I realised at the time.


Flux

« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 05:50:51 AM by Flux »

TomW

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Re: Low Torque, Low RPM Generator Design (Help)
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2008, 06:14:57 AM »
I am so happy my colleagues on this board are so eager to jump in and help someone design the next windpower SCAM that I may need to pop a Digitalis to jump start my ticker after all the excitement settles down.


I expect the term "Patent" will be included in the "secret" stuff.


Geeze.


Just the early morning reaction.


My policy [if it was up to me] would be NO SECRETS You want help you fully disclose the plan. It should be obvious anything discussed here should be open design with no ownership.


Why should we help some unnamed commercial venture enrich their coffers?


Oh, and get your terms straight "q" is not what you decided to redefine it as midway thru your mining free help for the commercial project.


My personal offer of help is "go back to school to learn proper terms in the field".


Just my opinion of commercial ventures trying to get free engineering here for secret projects


Tom

« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 06:14:57 AM by TomW »

luv2weld

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Re: Low Torque, Low RPM Generator Design (Help)
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2008, 07:36:08 AM »
Well said, Tom.


Sounds like we are either doing someone's homework

for them or we are helping them take money from fools.


Ralph

« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 07:36:08 AM by luv2weld »
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stop4stuff

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Re: Low Torque, Low RPM Generator Design (Help)
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2008, 12:10:33 PM »
'ere Tom,


a few years ago, i asked 'is there a formula?' http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2004/1/4/6043/32361


no reply, except for most ppl use trial & error


well, i did my homework & there are various formla that can be used


and before you ask, no I haven't got a mill up & running, however, I do understand the priciples involved and am able to make a 'better that guess' estimation of what is required to achieve a goal just from using math

« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 12:10:33 PM by stop4stuff »

Jason Wilkinson

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Re: Low Torque, Low RPM Generator Design (Help)
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2008, 01:55:42 PM »
What i find amazing about all this are those who "don't have mills up and working" but con contribute to the board to assist others like myself  how to get a mill  " up running and producing power " keep up the good work fellas

 Jason
« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 01:55:42 PM by Jason Wilkinson »

ghurd

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Re: Low Torque, Low RPM Generator Design (Help)
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2008, 03:34:32 PM »
NC-17?  Not PC.


S4S,

"I did my homework & there are various formla that can be used"


Yes!

Or Depends on how you look at it?

I expect most of us asked that question in one form or another.

BUT, you didn't have a never before seen, secret design...

Which was "for my personal gain" and the gains of an name-not-disclosed company.

"Any help received will be greatly beneficial" to whom? Or is it who? Whatever.


Parts I found most interesting:

""How do you find the actual voltage and/or amperage that will be generated from a varying speed, S (in rpm, mph, or m/s, any of these are fine)? I have not been able to fully model this output because I haven't been able to find any good sources on how these "Power Curves" are actually calculated.

It seems that every graph I see is a measured output.

Is this curve based on the strength of the magnets, size of the magnets, number of coils/turns in the stator, the losses in the conductors/air gap/cogging/etc. and so on and so forth?""


Hint:

"how these "Power Curves" are actually calculated"?

"every graph I see is a ""measured output""


Foot Notes / Honorable Mentions:

"Magnet to coil ratio should be ~4:3 (I haven't been able to verify this anywhere, just seen it mentioned)"

"Consider using blocking magnets to increase the intensity of the magnetic field"

"Use concentrated stator windings rather than distributed stator windings"

And

"I've got this one covered"


Special Honorable Mention for Sir Flux:

"I wish now that I hadn't deleted the comments I first wrote, they were more relevant than I realised at the time."


Extra-Super-Special Honorable Mention:

"I disagree" with Flux.

(I did that too, he was right every time)


G-


TW:  Will we be expected to split the royalties evenly between all 12,000 of us?

If so, please take my share off my next membership fee.

« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 03:34:32 PM by ghurd »
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TheCasualTraveler

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Re: Low Torque, Low RPM Generator Design (Help)
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2008, 05:24:09 PM »
""Special Honorable Mention for Sir Flux:""


     Flux has been Knighted?


Bought time!

« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 05:24:09 PM by TheCasualTraveler »

ghurd

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Re: Low Torque, Low RPM Generator Design (Help)
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2008, 06:20:44 PM »
Wasn't Anthony Hopkins Knighted?

IMHO, Flux is far more worthy.


Gosh.  My understanding is even Americans can be Knighted.

Me, being an American, vote for Flux to be Knighted.


Those opposed?

« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 06:20:44 PM by ghurd »
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Yyrkoon

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Re: Low Torque, Low RPM Generator Design (Help)
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2008, 08:55:21 PM »
I kind of read this post the other way; A person making himself/herself out to be more important than they really are shrug


Guess this would be a bad time for me to ask for equations for coil turns/voltage ?!


Kidding . . .

« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 08:55:21 PM by Yyrkoon »

stop4stuff

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Re: Low Torque, Low RPM Generator Design (Help)
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2008, 10:50:23 PM »
Ghurd said;


S4S,

"I did my homework & there are various formla that can be used"


Yes!

Or Depends on how you look at it?

I expect most of us asked that question in one form or another.

BUT, you didn't have a never before seen, secret design...


Don't I?... another member of this board has seen my idea, which I have since refined & simplified... trouble is, I lack funds, space and tools to build a prototype, hey ho, that's life.


...and yes the formula I provided above gave me the right number of turns for my weight driven generator. Small and insignificant compared to what others here have acomplished I know, however for me that one project gave me great undrstanding.


Count my vote for a knighthood for the most patient & knowledgeable Flux.

« Last Edit: October 12, 2008, 10:50:23 PM by stop4stuff »

TomW

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Addendum....
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2008, 03:45:39 AM »
After watching this play out awhile, I have one word to toss into the mix:


Empirical Testing


Oh, well. 2 words then but one concept. Bit more hands on than being spoon fed so unlikely to be common today or what the OP wants here.


Tom

« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 03:45:39 AM by TomW »

jcgivens21

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Re: Low Torque, Low RPM Generator Design (Help)
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2008, 10:11:11 AM »
Thanks again for responding, Flux. Let me respond to your statements.


"If you decide to decide to define q as slots/pole/phase then fine , we all know that you are not using the common definition of q as the ratio of L/R."


Thank you for clearing up the ambiguity between the two 'q' terms (q = L/R). I found q = slots/pole/phase in a book written by a man named Ion Boldea. The book is called "Variable Speed Generators."


"Why you are worrying about slots/pole/phase for an air gap machine with no slots is beyond me but that is another matter."


Maybe I am misunderstanding what he terms as 'slots.' I was under the impression he was referring to the number of slots in the stator that the winding will be wound through. Any correction to this assumption is greatly appreciated.


"Others have already suspected that this is not for battery charging but if it is then as pointed out Dan's 20ft alternator is more than capable of 1kW at 200rpm so you are not doing anything new."


You are correct in the assumption that this application is indeed not for battery charging. It is for a grid-connected system that will have to go through some time of PWM Inverter (unless there is better/more efficient technology that I have not discovered). The output from the generator will most likely be 3-phase star configuration (because of the low-rpm) going through a 3-phase bridge rectifier, and then finally inverted to a usable signal (120V, 60Hz, varying current).


"If it is for battery charging and you want to understand the basics I will run through it but I don't intend to do anything that is going to waste my time."


No need to go through, though the gesture is appreciated.


"I sure wouldn't want to trust you to design my new and revolutionary product but I suppose if it was top secret then it may be awkward giving it to someone who has basic knowledge in case they found a flaw in this new revolutionary thing that will change the world."


In a perfect world, I would already have all of the answers. I'm using every resource I have available to me to solve the problem. I'm not real sure what else I can do at this point, and I will continue to pursue this avenue. Despite the negativity surrounding some of the posts in this thread, there is quite a bit of helpful information being thrown around that is slowly putting the pieces of the puzzle together to me. It would be nice to have even a portion of the experience that some of you folks on the board have, but that is simply not the case.


Thanks again for the help. Even if you are frustrated with me or this thread, you are definitely helping me.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 10:11:11 AM by jcgivens21 »

jcgivens21

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Re: Low Torque, Low RPM Generator Design (Help)
« Reply #24 on: October 13, 2008, 10:13:16 AM »
After re-reading the post, there was one comment you made about the stator being 'slotless' and now that has registered. Because the stator will be encased in some type of resin, there are no stator slots. My ignorance dwindles slightly.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 10:13:16 AM by jcgivens21 »

jcgivens21

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Re: Low Torque, Low RPM Generator Design (Help)
« Reply #25 on: October 13, 2008, 10:19:28 AM »
The design will be a VAWT. Beyond that, I have no idea about the blade design. I know, it stinks, but I can't let that hold me down in the design of the generator. Assumptions will simply have to be made.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 10:19:28 AM by jcgivens21 »

jcgivens21

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Re: Low Torque, Low RPM Generator Design (Help)
« Reply #26 on: October 13, 2008, 10:21:33 AM »
"Mostly I am curious how anyone can supply any proper or related fomulae for the secret design, that is unlike anything ever seen."


It seems almost magical, doesn't it? I'll let you know when I design my perpetual motion machine.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 10:21:33 AM by jcgivens21 »

jcgivens21

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Re: Low Torque, Low RPM Generator Design (Help)
« Reply #27 on: October 13, 2008, 10:28:50 AM »
Thank you very much, Spinning. This is just the type of response I was hoping to receive.


"Instead of Googling the site, I recommend scanning through the last two years of "wind" postings, and copy every paragraph that lists something like "I used X number of wraps of Y gauge wire and got 24/48-volts at Z RPM's". 10% more or fewer RPM's will usually result in 10% more or fewer volts, so you can pro-rate that coil (using math, for a graphchart) at near 200 RPM's."


This is a work in progress. Like I said before, this forum is a great resource, and I'm finding oodles of good information here. So far I've only had the opportunity to make it through about 350 of the thread on this site, and there are many more to look through. It's just a matter of time, and unfortunately for me, time is my most precious resource at this point. Thank you again, spinning.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 10:28:50 AM by jcgivens21 »

jcgivens21

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Re: Low Torque, Low RPM Generator Design (Help)
« Reply #28 on: October 13, 2008, 10:48:13 AM »
Hello, Tom. I have a few responses to your comments.


"I am so happy my colleagues on this board are so eager to jump in and help someone design the next windpower SCAM that I may need to pop a Digitalis to jump start my ticker after all the excitement settles down.

I expect the term "Patent" will be included in the "secret" stuff."


Yes, the term Patent does come to mind, though unfortunately it will not be mine. Your colleagues are helping me, and to that I applaud them.


"My policy [if it was up to me] would be NO SECRETS You want help you fully disclose the plan. It should be obvious anything discussed here should be open design with no ownership."


As much as I would like to disclose everything, I simply can not. I have given my word not to disclose the "secret," and I will honor that, though I will give everything bit of information that is relevant that I do not think will violate any sort of agreement that will help this project continue to move.


"Why should we help some unnamed commercial venture enrich their coffers?"


That is for you to decide. Your own desires to respond to this board are something I have no control over. This goes without saying. If you feel that posting here is a detriment to the field, is a total waste of your time, or is just a downright bad idea, then by all means feel free to not contribute. I'm not pulling your arm, I'm simply asking for some help. Nothing more, nothing less.


"Oh, and get your terms straight "q" is not what you decided to redefine it as midway thru your mining free help for the commercial project."


Flux was kind enough to show me where the ambiguity lied in my reference to the term 'q' in earlier posts. I got the information from a book titled "Variable Speed Generators" by Ion Boldea. He is a very thorough offer and I have enjoyed reading his book thus far. Additionally, Flux also helped me understand that my thinking was flawed because this particular generator design has no slots--something that should have been so blatantly obvious that anyone could see it right off hand. Unfortunately, sometimes we as humans get caught up with specifics that we miss the obvious (can't see the forest for the trees, etc).


"My personal offer of help is "go back to school to learn proper terms in the field"."


I'm still in school. No need to go back to something I'm already a part of. While I wish in my curriculum and independent studies I could learn every proper term used "in the field," it's just not possible. That being said, I am making an effort, and every bit of help is working towards that goal. See the previously mentioned Flux reference in these comments. That's a great example.


Additionally, I find your quote incredibly ironic at this point. If everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking. If you support this comment enough to show everyone with each post you make, I would think you would be the first to jump on any sort of attempts at advancement of the field. I'm no Einstein, but I'm putting my best effort forth, and I'm using every reference available to me. I don't expect to be omniscient, either.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 10:48:13 AM by jcgivens21 »

jcgivens21

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Re: Low Torque, Low RPM Generator Design (Help)
« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2008, 10:50:23 AM »
"Sounds like we are either doing someone's homework

for them or we are helping them take money from fools."


Homework, really.

« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 10:50:23 AM by jcgivens21 »

jcgivens21

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Re: Low Torque, Low RPM Generator Design (Help)
« Reply #30 on: October 13, 2008, 10:57:14 AM »
"TW:  Will we be expected to split the royalties evenly between all 12,000 of us?"


I may just decide to give all the money to you. I will discuss it with the client and we'll see what they say. The only real thing this post was lacking was a rickroll and excess exclamation points!!!111!lol!

« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 10:57:14 AM by jcgivens21 »

ghurd

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Re: Low Torque, Low RPM Generator Design (Help)
« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2008, 11:07:53 AM »
If the thing isn't too far from a normal setup,


Have you seen Hugh's FAQ section?

http://www.scoraigwind.com/faq.html


Also, Windstuffnow has a nice Blade Design program ($5) that gives a bit of generator output estimations.

http://www.windstuffnow.com/main/formulas.htm

And he made this excell file.

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/15/Number_of_turns2.XLS


G-

« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 11:07:53 AM by ghurd »
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

CWATTS

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Re: Low Torque, Low RPM Generator Design (Help)
« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2008, 05:34:45 PM »
"..How do you find the actual voltage and/or amperage that will be generated from a varying speed, S (in rpm, mph, or m/s, any of these are fine)? I have not been able to fully model this output because I haven't been able to find any good sources on how these "Power Curves" are actually calculated. It seems that every graph I see is a measured output. Is this curve based on the strength of the magnets, size of the magnets, number of coils/turns in the stator, the losses in the conductors/air gap/cogging/etc. and so on and so forth?.."
............................................
1. How do you find the actual voltage and/or amperage that will be generated from a varying speed, S (in rpm, mph, or m/s, any of these are fine)?

A model calculation requires constants and variables.. so maybe if you make your
design and create a graph which plots all you can think of .. you shall get all of your answers.
............................................
2.I have not been able to fully model this output because I haven't been able to find any good sources on how these "Power Curves" are actually calculated.

I think you mean a chart which shows Power in relation to rotary speed.
From studying OHM's Law you will find most of your answers. Checkout HAM RADIO books.

.............................................

3.Is this curve based on the strength of the magnets, size of the magnets, number of coils/turns in the stator, the losses in the conductors/air gap/cogging/etc. and so on and so forth?.."

YES --
BEST LESSON EVER (( KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID )) KISS
When I studied Electronics .. I was firstly told this  ...
If I was you I would start with simple charts.

Good Luck . . Its all such a great feeling when you see a design come together.
GREAT LINKS - -
http://windstuffnow.com/main/
http://www.fieldlines.com/
http://www.myersequipment.com/main_products.html
http://www.rason.org/index.html
http://www.stanford.edu/~hydrobay/lookat/pmg.html#sect-1
http://peswiki.com/energy/Main_Page
YOUTUBE EVERYTHING ..its the new way to learn without getting bored with theory !!
Good luck


« Last Edit: October 13, 2008, 05:34:45 PM by CWATTS »