Author Topic: Washing Machines, Dryers, other high drain devices...  (Read 571 times)

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xeroid

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Washing Machines, Dryers, other high drain devices...
« on: June 21, 2005, 09:31:25 PM »
How do you folks look after washing clothes, running a decent fridge/freezer, run a deep well pump etc. off-grid?


I am in the country in an old farm house, but I rely on the grid for pretty much everything right now.  The batteries and the inverters etc. are expensive, so I am stuck on old man grid for now.


How do you run (or replace) high drain appliances like washing machines, the funace oil pump and blower fan motors, the refridgerator, the oven and stove etc?  


Sure, I can replace some of those things with high efficiency versions but look out for that price tag!  Yeeeowww!!


I would be happy to hear how you folks are managing the day to day realities of life off the grid.  (Prices to convert would be a help too!)


Xeroid.

« Last Edit: June 21, 2005, 09:31:25 PM by (unknown) »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Washing Machines, Dryers, other high drain dev
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2005, 04:42:58 PM »
Lots of storage and a big inverter are for running any devices that are unavoidably high drain but only used intermittently (such as wells).  Then you need enough generation to keep the storage up and you're done.  B-)


But you'll want to replace or deconfigure any electric heating appliances or functions.  Example:  Disable the water-temperature boosting and electric drying parts of a dishwasher.  Run your water heater to a temperature adequate for sanitation and let the dishes air-dry.  Dump an electric dryer, stove, or oven.  (You might keep the microwave if you don't use it to roast turkeys, but dump the toaster-oven.)  Dump any electric space heaters.  Dump the electric air conditioner (unless you can afford to pave your yard with PV panels and fill a spare garage stall with batteries).


Exception:  If you have a big mill and can configure your heating appliances - especially space heating or bulk water heating - as optional dump loads, accepting that they'll only run when the wind is high and the batteries up.  Wind tends to be high in many weather conditions when heating is needed so it's a good match, cutting down the fuel use on whatever you use to heat on calm days and fine-tune your temperature.


For the rest, check how often it's used, for how long, what it costs to replace it with something lower-drain, and what it costs for enough extra generation and storage to cover the difference.  Then you can decide whether to keep it, replace it, or do without it.


And if you're going off-grid and you have some big-drain items that you use occasionally but for long enough chunks of time that extra storage off your alternative energy collectors isn't a good option, that's what gasoline or diesel backup gennies are for.  B-)

« Last Edit: June 21, 2005, 04:42:58 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Washing Machines, Dryers, other high drain dev
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2005, 04:51:21 PM »
(By the way:  I'm not actually DOING this at the moment.  Just parroting the theory.  And looking toward the future...)
« Last Edit: June 21, 2005, 04:51:21 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

zmoz

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Re: Washing Machines, Dryers,
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2005, 06:00:19 PM »
Netmetering is a perfect option for this. Simply feed the power you create back into the grid and turn your meter backwards, using the grid as your battery. This way you don't have any batteries to keep up and it's there for large surges or when you want to run multiple appliances at once...
« Last Edit: June 21, 2005, 06:00:19 PM by zmoz »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Washing Machines, Dryers,
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2005, 06:14:46 PM »
By the way:  In my area at least the power company will average your usage annually rather than monthly if you're on net metering, letting you "store" power with them for months.


They won't pay you if you give them more in a year than you pull.  But batteries won't either B-).  The power company charges a small be-connected fee in addition to the net of your use-over-generation.  But you have to replace batteries every few years and a big set costs a lot.


Main expense is a grid-tie adapter for the inverter, maybe a couple grand.


If you've already got that paid off, and your power company is reliable enough to avoid outages, using it for your battery bank (or most of it) looks like a good deal.


(Now if the inverter companies would just include grid-tie as a standard feature without boosting the cost astronomically ...)

« Last Edit: June 21, 2005, 06:14:46 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

halfcrazy

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Re: Washing Machines, Dryers, other high drain ..
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2005, 06:28:48 PM »
check out the xantrex GT 3.0 i hear it is reasonabley priced it is a pure grid tie inverter rated for 3000 watts and has all necessary disconects built in no other hardware needed.

as for the fridge i run a basic sears kenmore energy star rated fridge and i have a 1/2 horse 240 volt pump and a staber washer if i had it to do again i would have bought a good front loader the staber is a great peice of equipment but i am not shure if it is worth the 1150.00 dollars. all this runs 2 xantrex sw 2524's with 16 u2200 golf cart batteries and we have 8 shell 160 watt panels.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2005, 06:28:48 PM by halfcrazy »

pyrocasto

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Re: Washing Machines, Dryers, other high drain dev
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2005, 07:11:39 PM »
A method I like better not mentioned here, is not powering them. Leave your high power devices on the grid, and power the rest of your house with your batteries. Same way I'm starting my house, one breaker at a time. Maybe power a few breakers at first, then move to all but AC, Heat, oven, and dryer.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2005, 07:11:39 PM by pyrocasto »

zmoz

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Re: Washing Machines, Dryers, other high drain dev
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2005, 08:12:58 PM »
What's the point of using solar if you're going to do that? Those things make up the vast majority of most people's bill...
« Last Edit: June 21, 2005, 08:12:58 PM by zmoz »

John II

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« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2005, 08:24:15 PM »
I'm also not off grid... but am getting there. You might want to assess your energy resources... If you happen to have hydro, or live in a strong wind location or in the sunshine belt, you may have much more going for you than you think. A lot of off grid folks do not have the above which makes the going just a little rougher.


Some of those high efficiency appliances are not as expensive as you think when you factor in their long term energy savings and long term life. For instance our SunFrost refrigerator compressor runs a fraction of the time most friges do. It's easy to see how it'll out last 4 or 5 regular refrigerators while drawing a fraction of the energy.


Not everyone can, but if you can... don't put $20K to $40K into a new SUV, truck or car, instead drive a $5K junker and put the investment into A.E. which will reward you for a much longer duration.


John II

« Last Edit: June 21, 2005, 08:24:15 PM by John II »

veewee77

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Re: Washing Machines, Dryers, other high drain dev
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2005, 09:22:00 PM »
This is correct, however, you will think about it more and only wash when you have a full load instead of washing a single shirt or a pair of pants at a time.


And, that AC will be put on a timer or manually turned off when you aren't home.


You'll get to competing with yourself to see how low you can get that grid-supplied bill, and I'd bet you can prune it to nearly a tenth (1/5) of what you pay now.


Plus, the items mentioned are not critical, with the exception of a refrigerator, and if there was a collapse of the grid, you could survive without the dryer, dishwasher, A/C and other 'extras'.


Doug

« Last Edit: June 21, 2005, 09:22:00 PM by veewee77 »

pyrocasto

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Re: Washing Machines, Dryers, other high drain dev
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2005, 09:26:53 PM »
Because the amound of power I need to run all that is obscene. This way, I'll start lower and work my way up.

Also, because this isnt entirely about saving money. Who said doing this was cheap in the first place?


One day when I get enough batteries, a big enough inverter, and enough windmills, I'll convert everything probably.

« Last Edit: June 21, 2005, 09:26:53 PM by pyrocasto »

Norm

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high drain devices...
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2005, 09:31:59 PM »
  You can wash clothes with a non-automatic

washer...clothes can be dried on a clothesline

...you can make refrigerators ...freezers...

air conditioners more efficient by spraying cool

well water on the condenser coils it is still

cost effective even given the extra pumping

...if you have any wind at all...a good ol' fashion pumper windmill...give up some of the

conveniences....

               ( :>) Norm.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2005, 09:31:59 PM by Norm »

daleh007

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« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2005, 11:59:42 PM »
My 2 cents. I am about ready to go off grid at a little vacation property myself and have looked at the replacement of a couple of appliances. The biggest power users I have are the stove and hotwater heater which I plan on replacing with propane units.

Daleh007
« Last Edit: June 21, 2005, 11:59:42 PM by daleh007 »

richhagen

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Washing Machines, Dryers, other high drain devices
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2005, 01:10:27 AM »
I think that if your local utility allows for net metering, and it is reasonable to implement it, then take advantage of it and have the convenience of both worlds, lower utilities/power on demand.  Net metering is available where I am at, but you have to jump through about ten hoops to use it (permits for electrical modifications, approved contractors, other inspections and such).  Since I don't generate more than I use, I simply use the power I generate to power loads that I can.  Lighting and automatic transfer switches (dpdt relays) for circuits that don't contain sensitive equipment work well for this.  A relay with a 125vac coil will throw a circuit from grid to inverter power when the inverter is activated, provided they have a common grounding setup.  For a dryer, I had thought about using an electric, but rebuilding the heating coils to run at 48V instead of 240V. Just have the 240V to the element throw relays that turn on the 48V to the elements. That way there would be no need to invert it to run it through the resistance wire.  Problem is you still need a huge battery bank and lots of generation, so I havn't done it yet.  I have a gas dryer sitting and though I might experiment with it to see if I could use the signal to turn on the gas to switch on replacement 48V elements instead.  That way, the washer and dryer could both be powered from a 110 or 120V 15 amp circuit fed by an inverter.  The Washer I didn't see as such a big problem because the power drawn was so much less compared to the dryer and it is already 110 or 120V.  Rich
« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 01:10:27 AM by richhagen »
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Norm

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An attic for clothes dryer heat
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2005, 04:51:33 AM »
  If you have even a small attic like mine....

(24 x 36 ft.) ...what a tremendous amount of

heat on even a 70 to 90 degree sunny day up there

that you could run thru your dryer even without

any electric modification...seems like the dryer

wouldn't turn on the heating element as much if the incoming air was already hot??

               ( :>) Norm.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 04:51:33 AM by Norm »

PHinker

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Re: An attic for clothes dryer heat
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2005, 06:43:43 AM »
After spending the last couple days in my attic re-wiring my house, the same thought struck me.  How to make use of the incredible amount of heat (it had to be 120 degrees up there) generated.  Some filtering would be needed since there's about 14" if blown in insulation up there.  I think you could disconnect the heating element all together on a sunny day and it stays hot up there fairly late into the afternoon.


Paul

« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 06:43:43 AM by PHinker »

ghurd

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Re:
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2005, 06:49:00 AM »
Some things not mentioned, but I am sure is quite common...


Run a generator for the washer or things like that.

Some washers are still being used with their own gas motor.


If the inverter is big enough, but the battery is not, or if the battery is a little low, often a gas lawn mower engine and car alternator is used to charge the battery while the large drain device is being used.

Meaning a good part of the power used is made by the alternator,

while surplus power charges the battery.


It's nice to have a way to get the battery charged too,

if there has been no wind or sun.


Not much help at 3:00AM when the well pump, 'fridge, or furnace decides to operate,

but for some things it works fine.


G-

« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 06:49:00 AM by ghurd »
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ghurd

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Re:
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2005, 07:06:43 AM »


« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 07:06:43 AM by ghurd »
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ghurd

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« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2005, 07:33:42 AM »
First try at a pic.

Can everyone see that?

G-
« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 07:33:42 AM by ghurd »
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TomW

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Re:
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2005, 07:45:52 AM »
Sure can. reminds me of my moms old maytag with the gas popper on it with the foot pedal start. Pop chug chug chug pop.


Cheers.


TomW

« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 07:45:52 AM by TomW »

ghurd

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Re:
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2005, 07:49:42 AM »
Same Maytag, many many motors later...

Common setup around here.

G-
« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 07:49:42 AM by ghurd »
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Re: Some interesting dishwasher numbers
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2005, 10:14:36 AM »
For me it's all in the timing. I run big loads on days when there's surplus solar and wind coming in......the washing machine and dishwasher are my 'dump loads.' My fridge is propane.


My clothes washer is a cheap Sears compact apartment model. When I don't have surplus power and have no clean clothes left, I use the laundromat. It's not bad on power at all -- a cycling 300 watt load for 20 minutes. It's a top loader tho and guzzles water.....but at least doesn't guzzle power. I'm limited more by water on this machine than by power use.


The dishwasher is an 18" wide small GE model, with a switch on the front panel to turn off the heated dry mode. My math from last week running the dishwasher at night (we're finally over the mucky muddy rainy spring season here and are getting some good solar in!!) showed a total power use of only 24 amp/hours at 12vdc for one cycle set at 'normal.'. For me, that's just under an hour of good sun. That's with heat boosting elements not modified at all, and water temp set at max from my on-demand aquastar water heater. And it uses less water than doing dishes by hand!


I do the same with vacuuming -- only when power is at a surplus. Just ask RichHagen or VolvoFarmer about how my floor looks when there's no surplus power ;~) Tho I can always spill beer on the floor and call DanB's dog Flash over to drink it up and mop my floor with his tongue....


My only other big loads are power tools. I dont' have a well, I have a spring, and it pumps with very little power. The killer on well pumps is the conversion of 120VAC inverter power to 220 for the well pump plus the startup surge.....it runs fine, but you need to prepare for a HUGE startup surge....many 1HP well pumps can't start off a Trace 2500W U-series and 220 boost transformer....seen that happen in a few different installations. That situation might be crying for a more expensive (but not THAT pricey) soft-start 120VAC well pump from Dankoff Solar.


ADMIN

« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 10:14:36 AM by ADMIN »

richhagen

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« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2005, 11:29:29 AM »
picture looks great Glen.  So does the Maytag.  Rich
« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 11:29:29 AM by richhagen »
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Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Some interesting dishwasher numbers
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2005, 03:53:39 PM »
My well uses a Goulds Pumps constant-pressure controller.  While it is 220V and I haven't done any ammeter checks, it's pretty clear that it does a variable-frequency drive for the motor that amounts to a soft-start.


I've thought of getting in touch with Goulds and seeing if I can get a diagram of the ouput and power supply sections to see what it is doing and how it can be powered with non-line sources and/or a recommendation on off-grid powering it.  (It involves a DSP chip to synthesize the output waveforms and also does a bunch of monitoring for line and load problems - such as ground faults and dry well - which could get confused if I feed it funny power.)

« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 03:53:39 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

RobD

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Re: Washing Machines, Dryers, other high drain dev
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2005, 05:37:48 PM »
I don't think Chris's idea about starting slow is a bad one. Dropping right off the grid 'cold turkey' can be painful experience!(and an expensive one)


Ghurd- We have the same washer, Nancy made me drag it out of a junk shop for $25.00 bucks to wash her wool in. I was thinking of converting it to pedal power.


I don't vacuum much. Hate the noise and power. I bought one of the Shark vacuums that is like a Bissel sweeper. (I have one of those too) and everyone loves it. In fact people come over and vacuum just to use it! This is better then Tom Sawyer!


Try root cellaring instead of fridges. Also I got one of those DC fridges from Wally mart (12 Volts) and I find if I keep it in the basement it will get pretty cold. We store grains in the basement and thinks like onions too.


The big draw here is heat. I use a wood stove with a bake oven in it.


I also have a pure DC inverter (Exeltech 1100) for my electronic equipment and a Trace DR2424 for the other stuff.


I have a well but don't like wells. Springs are just better if you have one. I have a couple here and hopefully I'll tap into one and use the well for emergencies only.


I like the idea off attic heat. Never tapped into that.

« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 05:37:48 PM by RobD »

Volvo farmer

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Re: Some interesting dishwasher numbers
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2005, 09:23:05 PM »
DanF wrote...That's with heat boosting elements not modified at all, and water temp set at max from my on-demand aquastar water heater. And it uses less water than doing dishes by hand!"


Now keep in mind that I'm an appliance repairman about to go off grid, .. and I don't want my wife and kids to find out that someone is using a diswasher :-0


Do you have any empirical evidence that your dishwasher uses less water than handwashing?  I can be pretty frugal with rinse water and I can wash as many dishes as can fit in an 18" dishwasher in about 1.5 gal of soapy water. I hear these claims of "less water use than handwashing" all the time but they're usually made by the dishwasher manufacturers.


Don't get me wrong, I think it's nifty to have enough surplus power to use one of these things, it's just that my common sense tells me it's not the most effiecient way to wash dishes. Check this out.

http://www.awwa.org/waterwiser/watch/index.cfm?ArticleID=30


Granted, I've never tried it, but I bet I can wash a bunch of dishes in less than 20 gallons of water if I'm actively trying to conserve. I suppose if a 24" dishwasher can really clean a full load in seven gallons, I might concede defeat buy my '93 GE profile has to be on "cook ware"  and "added heat" to get the things clean.


BTW, your floor looked fine to me. Mine's going to be concrete and I know a broom uses less electricity than a vacuum!

« Last Edit: June 22, 2005, 09:23:05 PM by Volvo farmer »
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georgeodjungle

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Re: Washing Machines, Dryers, other high drain ...
« Reply #26 on: June 23, 2005, 12:14:38 AM »
we love clothes lines so much we got 3.

2 small ones inside a one big one out side.

propane yellows every thing.

the electric one eats to much juice.

we cook with mostly propane and solar.

there's a bazilloin tips and tricks, not enough room here.

the best thing about off the grid is no power bill !!!

pays for it self in like 2 to 4 years "done right"

i think the best first step, is right here.

« Last Edit: June 23, 2005, 12:14:38 AM by georgeodjungle »

stm

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Re: Washing Machines, Dryers, other high drain dev
« Reply #27 on: June 23, 2005, 05:27:35 AM »
Please think twice before you try that idea about using the attic for drying clothes.


The moisture will go into your walls, the roof and the floor, and will in time make your home very a unhealty place to stay (even with plenty of ventilation).


Take the clothes outdoor - you can actualy dry clothes outside in the winter. We have done that for a long time, and I'm living at 64 degrees north! (you need a some sort of roof or shelter to prevent the clothes from becoming wet when it is snowing)


/Steffen

« Last Edit: June 23, 2005, 05:27:35 AM by stm »

xeroid

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Re: Washing Machines, Dryers, ...
« Reply #28 on: June 23, 2005, 04:19:02 PM »
Thanks very much for all the ideas and comments, folks!


Regards,


Xeroid.

« Last Edit: June 23, 2005, 04:19:02 PM by xeroid »

PHinker

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Re: Washing Machines, Dryers, other high drain dev
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2005, 09:57:12 PM »
I don't think anyone is advocating hanging wet clothes in the attic.  With a fan and filter, you could pump the hot air out of the attic and into your dryer (which exhausts outside) and probably dry clothes pretty well.


Paul

« Last Edit: June 23, 2005, 09:57:12 PM by PHinker »

BrianK

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Re: Washing Machines,
« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2005, 11:39:38 AM »
One thought i have had was to take and replace the certian parts of a washer with 12v items.


  .

« Last Edit: June 26, 2005, 11:39:38 AM by BrianK »

Bruce S

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Re: Washing Machines, Dryers, other high drain dev
« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2005, 11:02:43 AM »
Here's  a tried method.

Works better for us as we have a second floor.

Using good ol' vent pipe,sheet metal and duck tape and pliers. I made my wife a small unit using a 120mm fan that was off a discard computer and the above mentioned parts.

I use 3" vent pipe as it was more flexible and chear than the 4" which is getting tobe standard here.

Make a box out of the sheet metal ( recycle places sell it for $5.00/pound) I made one 36" x 36" with two holes on the same side. Made a "U" turn inside then ran some of the bendable flex pipe in from the upstairs bathroom into the sealed box mounted the fan on the output side ran another flexible length back to the bathroom where her wool sweaters are laying flat.

Even in the winter months the sun hitting our black roof made the air in the attic hot enough to have some really good hot air circulate though this neat little setup.


Note: the fan should be slow enough so as to let the air going through the into the pipe absorb the heat in the box, and more importantly not blow the sweaters on to the floor.


BTW: Does a pretty good job of keeping the bathroom warm as well.


enjoy:-)

 

« Last Edit: July 01, 2005, 11:02:43 AM by Bruce S »
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