taking a break from fieldlines for awhile

[asheets]

Lately, this board had gotten too mean for my tastes.  I'm not talking about the Dans, TomW, or the other well known regulars who contribute their time to the benefit of the community -- I'd consider staying if they asked.

There are, however, a number of individuals who seem to take joy in pointing out mistakes, complain about even the most innocent of questions (especially those that don't lend themselves to a Google search), and ESPECIALLY those self-appointed experts who assume that they and they alone are the font of all knowledge of physics and thermodynamics.  It is this group (especially those who consider the Laws of Thermodynamics and Newton's Laws of Motion optional at best) that I take my leave of.

I have seen several newcomers (and experienced folk, too) float new or radical ideas recently, only to be shot down, called names, etc., without a clear reason "why".  (BTH, for you OverUnity folks -- you don't count.  Plenty of good reasons are given to you.  I'm talking about realistic experimenters here). For these folks, I recommend reading up on the Scientific Method -- perhaps instead of going away angry like I am right now, you can fire back with observed data.  The SM consists roughly of the following:

   1. Observe an element of nature (sometimes that means trying something out before having an idea of what's going to happen, though sometimes a crazy guess works well here)

   2. Form a hypothesis to explain that element

   3. Collect baseline data and predict extensions of that data based on the hypothesis

   4. Change the baseline by experimentation

   5. collect and analyzed data

   6. Determine where collected data supports the hypothesis.  If not, revise the hypothesis and return to step 3.

[kurt]

can't play like an adult don't play at all. i have seen you get all defensive and accuse someone of calling you an idiot when all he did was explain to you why your half baked idea would not work, and in a nice and polite way too. so maybe you need to grow some thicker skin and grow up a bit this is not grade school you know.    

[whatsnext]

I would only ad that I thought that this was some sort of board for practical applications of renewable energy projects not an experimenters board.

[stop4stuff]

wowoa.....

i had some stuff knocked down/ripped apart/dissed - whatever

i know what i know

i believe what i believe

others believe they know what they know

so what?

i've had ideas to be shot down in flames...

one of which is on it's way to being a money maker tho it's not a viable product... go figure?

the world & t'internet is bigger & more knowledgeable than here on fiedlines

sometimes you gotta remember that others are still stuck in the box,

chin up,

paul

[windstuffnow]

  Hmmm... isn't it experimenting that leads to practical applications?  A lot of people learn by experimenting with the knowledge gathered here so the two go hand in hand...

.

[DanB]

I can see your point ASheets - although I think it has been that way... sometimes.. since the beginning.  Even good/freindly folks sometimes get a bit out of hand.  Sorry you'll be gone for a while and hopefully you'll pop in again soon ;-)

In response to 'wahtsnext' - you've got that right, it is a board for practical applications and that's always been a problem when folks who maybe know a bit less than some of the 'regulars' really do think they have a clever new idea but others here know that it does not fit the qualification of being a 'practical' application.  That is part of the reason we created the 'newbies' catagory.  Even so though - discussion of overunity and perpetual motion and some other things won't be allowed there.

Anybody at any time  - if they have ideas or are bothered by something on the board can email us.  Doesn't mean we'll do anything about but we might - never know.  It's impossible to keep all of the people happy all of the time.

Thanks to allen - and whatsnext - and everyone else here for contributing and putting up with some of the problems here.  Overall I think this community has been and continues to be a pretty productive place.

[DanB]

Yes, I think thats right Ed.  Different people have different levels of tolerance.  Some get offended when people come with 'silly' ideas and ask 'silly' questions that perhaps a very little bit of research/reading would've solved.  I guess 'silly' is different for everybody - most of the questions/discussions on this board have been discussed before and could be settled if someone had only read the 'right book'.  I have a higher tolerance for basic and or redundant questions than some folks.

I suppose a very good rule is 'if you cant say something nice don't say anything at all' - that would solve lots of problems.  It comes easier for some folks than others... I have problems with that myself sometimes.  I expect if we enforced that sort of rule I'd have to kick all kinds of good folks out of here ;-)

[Nando]

Don't quit, just make sure that you "develop" a thicker skin and at the same time you have a "Teflon" clothing with a heavy Kynar underwear to be bullet proof.

Human character is very varied and many times lousy trained or educated and some do really feel to be attacked if a simple word is used out of the person mental context, feeling that the person has been insulted, instead of examining what was said and on what basis and forget to recognize that such remark or word or phrase was correct in a general sense.AND NOT AN INSULT.

This site, as seen as, a practical site applications for wind mills, is indeed a heavy "experimental" applications site.

To really know if it is Practical or experimental, one needs to examine the type of questions that are presented and, as well as, on what basis.

If questions are presented in where even the number of turns for a coil is guessed and not calculated and it is asked to see if it is right or not, in reference to the magnets which are given as a size and not as a strength level - then experimentation and not practical applications.

Practical applications have their parameters well established and demarcated with basic formulas to define the specifications and parameters of the wind mill and the generator, plus the rest of the system down to the storage and/or the loads.

Nando

[David HK]

Hello all,

This web site must rank somewhere in the top five of the English language Internet sites dealing with renewable energy.  The one thing it does have - and I'm talking about the person(s) that operate and maintain this web site - is quality. It's quite easy to navigate around and best of all the arrangement to upload photographs is very useful indeed. Tom W does seem to do a fair job, and I suppose if he did not things could be a lot worse than we perceive at the moment. We could of course have someone worse than Tom W so perhaps we should consider ourselves lucky.

The quality of contributors is very good and I enjoy reading about things for which I have a passing knowledge, but not a deep understanding. It's a good way to learn a bit more. Some subject matter is completely over my head, but I do look at it out of sheer curiosity. One has to use judicial patience with some writers - I find the theory behind aeronautical mathematics and aerofoils - quite bewildering, but I can still build Hugh Piggot's aerofoils without a problem.

As for the people that do contribute it's clear to see that they come from most countries in the world. Life is not easy for anybody these days. We all have to find a friendly way to get on with each other and the difference in the `mindset' between nationalities may be responsible for some of the hackles that are raised in a small way from time to time.

I am nearly 59 years of age and if I survive another ten years I shall be lucky. The thing I do want to do before I take the last ride in a hearse is to assemble the entire trappings of a renewable energy system in all its forms. That is, wind turbines, solar hot water heater system, a deep cycle battery system, control equipment and accessories (shunt controllers, hydrometer, DVM etc), photovoltaic panels with sun tracker and so on. My wife will never be able to maintain and use this splendid equipment, which will have a minimum working life of 50 years - and hopefully a lot more -  so I hope I can find a young man (or a technical woman) that can inherit a well built system in a few years time.

I have nearly achieved my aim and will soon decide on a 12 or 24 volt system (probably 24V) and I am about to take the last plunge in learning PICAXE technology to assist in controlling a great deal of the system.

So there you are folks. My aim is not so different to that of anybody else and I hope Alan Sheets will just shrug his shoulders and grin and bear with the ups-and-downs of life. I think modern parlance would be to 'just hang in there.'

I could not have solved some of my technical problems without help from you.

Knowing my luck someone is bound to take exception to this contribution!

David HK

[vawtman]

Allen

 My opinion is if your going to throw out ideas that you think might work,you must be prepared to take the heat from guys that know it wont and ponder that.

 Im probably a perfect example of that.

 Hang in there and dont give up the ship.

 Something ive been meaning to ask you.

  Did you work for the Hurricane Center?

[CmeBREW]

Sounds like perhaps you need yet another catagory called---'Experimental'. ( In case a post sounds...well...very experimental).  In any case, I've only been here a year or so and greatly appreciate ASHEETS comments, ideas,and knowledge as i do everyone else's. If I wasnt reading here I would be WASTING too much time watching the depressing world news. I like everyone's ideas, questions, debates, and answers. This is a great discussion group. We all have very different personalities - Its best to overlook, and forget, when ya get ticked off - - realizing we are ALL SOB's at times.

[s4w2099]

remember that in a forum people can not express emotions very clear. They might not be trying to be rude. Some guys here have turned down some of my ideas too but I dont think it is in a bad way.

One thing I know know is that many people do not accept any new idea that have not been tested working. Remember most people resist change. Its like trying to teach a very old man to use the internet.

I am like you, I like to try new things even if I crash at doing it, burn my money, or if Flux does not agree with it.

:-D

It is true that ppl like Flux (nothing against Flux I know he is extremely knowledgeable and practical) have a far greater experience than me or any others but its just FUN to experiment and try do develop new ideas. I thing it is a very good brain stumuli.

[jimjjnn]

Lets watch the old man on the internet stuff !! I'm 71 years old. :-))

[s4w2099]

There are always a few exceptions to any rule.

:-D

PS: you are not old, dad is 87 and he had my little sister at the age of 68 :-D

[harrie]

Ya, this new fangled gaget is really something for this ole man too. Ha.

[Bruce S]

Asheets;

  There's a lot of people on here who like your input.

But I would like to say this.

It does help to get away from the board for even a short time. Mine was imposed by my company for speaking my mine and I paid the price for it. BUT to be very honest, it was nice in a small way not to log on and see all the crap being slung around.

I have nowhere near the amount of postings you have on here and surely have not even come close to helping as many as you have, so my not being here was only noticed by a certain few.  I'm cool with that.

As we all remember even Tom W had to take a break...

The 6 items you posted for my company are only the beginning of what we have to go through, of course ours deals with peoples quality of life, so we need these rules.

I say take a break, hug the wife and kids , if you have 'em, go lay in the grass , after the cold and snow has left again. And enjoy life.. You'll be glad you did.

For the Dans and those in charge I'd like to ask this.

CAN we get Tom W back to his old self and see if we , heck I'll bribe 'em if I have to, to start hitting the good 'ole delete button on those that are in attack mode just to be mean?

I can curse and argue with the best of 'em,, but what's it worth?

Alan , enjoy life my friend, spring and summer is just around the bend, come back when you're ready.

Cheers!

Bruce S

[Flux]

s4w2099

Normally I never take part in any of these mud slinging discussions, it just doesn't interest me. I just try to help people do the best they can.

As you have brought this up then I suppose I ought to at least reply. I have no desire to stop anyone doing anything new if they want to, similarly I don't care if they want to throw away money on things that don't work.

All I try to do is help people get the best from their experiments and if it saves them wasting their money then I hope it may have been worthwhile. I am certain that many people choose to ignore my advice, that's absolutely fine with me. Even if they ignore it and come back later I will still try to help them sort it out.

For those who Don't find my advice helpful then I would prefer thy just ignore it and go away and do their own thing rather than keep pestering me with questions for which they have already made up their mind that they are going to ignore my answers.

I don't mind flogging something for days where someone doesn't get the idea, if it helps them in the end to understand a problem.

I have stated previously that I don't claim to be an expert at anything, when I make mistakes I have admitted it which is all that I can do. I have been at this for a long time and generally I can spot the things that are not going to work. If I can stop someone making silly mistakes then I hoe this is useful.

I don't care what theories people come up with, I judge them by the final result. If that final result goes against my practical findings then normally I just ignore it.

Sometimes I pass comment and they shoot me down, then so be it. When they change the theory to fit the observed results then I take it seriously. If someone consistently produces practical results that don't seem in line with theory then I try to be open minded enough to see it there is something in it. This has been the case with jerry and his strange method of connection . His ideas do have some merit when used in the way that he uses them so the theory has to be adapted to suit the facts.

I think you are hinting at the discussion we have had about very low speed cut in and by a strange coincidence dastardlydan seems to have given you enough evidence to back your ideas. If what he has done performs as claimed then just ignore everything I have said and go ahead and do as you planned. If you also obtain such spectacular results then there is something strange that at present seems impossible and is seriously worth investigating. At this stage I still think the advice I gave you was valid, I look forward to any results that you get.

Flux

[finnsawyer]

You say a board for practical applications.  I would say a board for cookie cutter applications.  Everybody is encouraged to do the same thing.  That's not necessarily bad.  It's just one way to go.  When I started here a little over two years ago, I thought there was a spirit of innovation here.  It happens that I have no great interest in doing what has already been done.  I suppose that makes me a "theorist".  In order to advance the cause of wind power one needs to understand the theory.  That's my bag at the present time.  I've presented my ideas here, and in discussions with people, have straightened out some misconceptions and honed some of my ideas.  An example is from yesterday's comment where I finally put to rest the issue of relating power in the air to lift and drag, something that had been vexing me for some time.  Seems obvious now, but that's way it goes.  In any case, some people may decide to try some of these different ideas.  There needs to be a forum for it somewhere.  Why not here?

[s4w2099]

No man you see, there is a misunderstanding. I do know that your advice is good and valid. But the fact is that one really have to experiment and see what happens if you take another road. Please dont get confused with my writing. Most of the times I end up doing things the way you said. What I meant is that it is fun to experiment at least for those of us who play with alternators as a hobby. Its like a lab class in school.

Please dont take it the wrong way it looks like you are a very professional guy and very down to earth. What I tried to point out is that there are many ppl out there that just love to follow things blindly just because you or other known knowledgeable person in this forum states so. Sometimes some others would rather go to the bottom of the problem and try to come up with new ideas to solve them, most of the times they might not even be practical ans some other times they might hit in the point just like jerry did.

One again Flux this was not a hint to you at all. And I am sorry if you felt threatened about my comment, it was not my intention really. Some of us just like to reinvent the wheel. Regardless advice and suggestions are welcome and thats why I personally post.

[jimjjnn]

The cookie cutter idea is good as I see others improving and modifying the "cookies" for better reliabilty.

 The basic alternator is there with Hugh Piggott's and the Otherpower folks designs.

I feel that other's are improving on these basic designs in the areas of cooling the stators,improving furling,Electronics, and many other attepts,Good bad or otherwise. I see people here thinking out of the box. Some succeed some fail. In the long run, all of us learn from each failure and every success.

I believe this forum has more than succeeded in it's goals, to get folks to think in and out of the box. The number of "Newbies" here indicates that.

The Otherpower Folks have accomplished wher other forums have failed to do.

Dissent is as good as applauding one's accomplishments as positive dissent towards one's failures can also be good.

[Flux]

Thanks for that. I suppose what I see as obvious is new and exciting for others new to the game.

One of the advantages of the internet is that it saves much time reinventing the wheel. That was what most of us did in the early days of wind power.

Flux

[electrondady1]

asheets ,
sorry you got fed up .
 but by being silent you let the rude boys win!
i have enjoyed your postings,
good luck!

[finnsawyer]

When I saw that posting I thought his cut-in speed was too low and that the mill looked like one that needed high air speeds to function well.  Well, if you make the cut-in speed a more realistic 7 mph and the adjust the other accordingly, you will drop the efficiency to a more realistic 35% or so.  And measuring air speeds accurately in the field is always going to be a challenge, particularly if there are trees or buildings around.  Anyway, I thought your response was sufficient, but apparently not.  

[s4w2099]

Absolutely true. We just have to try to help each other here with whatever we know trying to give a reasonable explanation of why it would work or why it would not.

I hope none leaves this forum.

[pyrocasto]

Ah no, more drama!

As said, thick skin and a little reading usually prevent these type of situations.

[hvirtane]

I've got an advantage that English is not my mother language. So I don't understand well when people start being rude with their wordings. A natural thick skin.

On the other hand, it is good sometimes to take a break. I didn't read much 'fieldlines' for some time, because I was too busy with some other things. It was OK. to stay away for some time.

- Hannu

[jacquesm]

There have been some very innovative designs here, yes, most people build the modified Piggot machines because they simply need power, they don't have the time or the resources to spend on experiments (which can be quite costly).

This board is not about windmills alone, this is about off grid living and all the practical problems you run in as well as a place where experimenters can show their workpieces and get solid feedback.

If you walk out into the big world of the internet then expect your toes to be stepped on. I've been guilty of lashing out once or twice but only when I'm really irritated (and that usually takes some doing). I think that to 'take your marbles and go home' is  not a solution to the problem. A simple way to deal with this is just to ignore those who are abusive, it sounds simple in principle and I know it can be hard to do sometimes but we simply can not expect everybody to mesh with everybody else in perfect harmony all the time.

The days of the 'overunity wars' are long behind us and in general the board is still producing quality content for people of all levels interested in renewable energy, practical applications or plain weird designs.

As long as you're serious and not calling people names just for the hurt of it

then it's all fine with me, I've been called an idiot more than once here and

sometimes the other party was even right

Just my E 0.02, ymmv

j.

[FreeBreeze]

Davidhk:  can i have the address to the other top 4?