Author Topic: going off grid-where to start?  (Read 3751 times)

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AKR

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going off grid-where to start?
« on: November 12, 2005, 12:41:21 PM »
hey, everyone. hopefully, i will be moving into the house i'm building within the next month. i'd like to stay off grid, but right now, i don't have all the money i need, so i have to start small. i live in south central alaska, and by christmas time, we will be down to about 5.5 hrs of daylight and increase from there. by june, we have 19 hours of day light. i have cleared what tall, conifer trees i can from the south side of my house, so it should recieve fairly unshaded daylight all day.


i am wanting to start with having about 1.5 kw's a day for a few lights and a small amount of tv. i have a 9 amp unleaded generator i'm borrowing from my dad, which i can use for my shallow well pump to fill my pressure tank. i will have a propane water heater and hopefully, i can find a decent priced propane fridge.


i've read that you shouldn't mix old batteries with new batteries. i've also read that you shouldn't add batteries to your existing ones after a year. now, i'm sure this would depend on the frequency of use, so it doesn't seem like a very safe rule to go by.


so, where the dilly do i start? should i invest in enough solar panels that i can totally rely on them during the day, and have enough left over to send to my batteries for the night (or almost enough, and charge them the rest of the way with the gen)? with that, should i get just a few batteries and add more later? or should i ditch those batteries when i get new ones? should i get less solar panels and lots of batteries and run my gen more? should i get a better gen? aaaaaah, i'm going mad!


btw, i'll also be looking into wind power over the next year. i need to study my site before i jump on that boat.


so anyways, there's the madness that's been keeping me up at night. thank for taking the time to read and i welcome any response. Reuben

« Last Edit: November 12, 2005, 12:41:21 PM by (unknown) »

Norm

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Re: going off grid-where to start?
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2005, 07:36:15 AM »
    Start small believe it or not for the first

15 years of my life we lived comfortably

on $1 worth of electricity....we turned on lights

turned off lights when we left the room...listened to the radio 3or4 hrs a day. used

hand saws ....hand operated hammers etc. non-cord

...non-electric drills.

    Get a couple of batteries an inverter....and

don't worry about the big stuff .

                    ( :>) Norm.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2005, 07:36:15 AM by Norm »

DanB

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Re: going off grid-where to start?
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2005, 07:43:39 AM »
If you can afford it, I'd start with a 'few' good things.  If you plan on having a decent system someday - start with higher voltage, 24, or preferably 48 Volts.  I would start with a decent battery bank (48V) and a good inverter with a charger built in.  If you dont use a lot, you can run off that and keep it charged by occasionally running the generator.  Than - as you can afford it, start adding solar panels.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2005, 07:43:39 AM by DanB »
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ghurd

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Re: going off grid-where to start?
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2005, 08:28:34 AM »
Most people start small and cheap, maybe because they don't really plan to do a whole lot. Things like used miss-matched batteries and cheap inverters.

It grows from there.


I'd recommend to start, trying to get some used 6V batteries from golf carts, floor scrubbers...

Solar is simple and reliable, but it's not going to do much in the winter up there.

Even a small windmill makes quite a bit of power related to 12V CFLs. Can be small, cheap and simple, and still beat 100~200W of solar in the winter up there. Some DIY and a little scrounging can put a small mill up for $200 total.


It's all a balancing act.

Clouds mean wind, calm means sun.

Dark mean wind or fuel are the only choices.

Too much battery is a waste of battery, not enough battery is a waste of solar, wind, fuel.


G-

« Last Edit: November 12, 2005, 08:28:34 AM by ghurd »
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Clifford

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Re: going off grid-where to start?
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2005, 08:42:08 AM »
You should do well with the solar in the summer when you can hit 20hrs / day of sunlight...  and not need to turn on your lights in the house at all during the day.


However,

It might be optimistic to plan on covering all of your power needs with a small array in the winter.


I am quickly learning that the ratings on the panels is in "optimal" conditions.  While they can generate power in shade, it takes a HUGE bite out of performance, and there are other factors that might drop your production significantly including the angle of inclination of the sun.  Someone from Alaska might give a good estimate of the watt-hrs produced / day vs rated watts.


If you have a setting that could take a windmill...  that might be an alternative.  However, read the fine print on the systems...  most of the wind generators seem to be rated by the energy production in a hurricane (just before the generator blows off the tower).

« Last Edit: November 12, 2005, 08:42:08 AM by Clifford »

richhagen

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Re: going off grid-where to start?
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2005, 04:27:25 PM »
These are just my opinions, others may have differing opinions.  


REDUNDANCY:  Most of the systems I have seen have redundancy.  Three or more sources if you are relying on it soley seems like a good idea.  Solar, Wind, and a good low RPM Diesel generator that won't rattle apart in the first thousand hours.  


CHOOSE A VOLTAGE:  If you intend to provide reasonable amounts of power to your whole house, and eventially power your water pump and other necesities and luxuries, then moving a large amount of power through 12V cables means larger wires, or a larger percentage of your power going to resistance losses.  For a house I would probably use 48 Volts because I can still get inverters from Outback, Xantrex and other venders, and it allows for the movement of reasonable amounts of power through managable sized cables.  Most of the folks I have talked with who have had both 12V and 48V systems, prefer the higher voltage for cost advantages from wire, heatsink sizes and other issues.    


BATTERIES:  Since it is your only source of power, and won't work without them, a reasonable set of batteries is essential.  See the battery section of this site here:  http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_battery.html

Remember that if you only have one set, and most likely you will, if they fail it is hard to work around that.  


SOLAR:  Solar tends to be reliable once it is installed as it has no moving parts (except when it gets covered with that darned white stuff when its cold).  At most locations there is a seasonal variation in the amount of power output.  It sounds like at your location, the seasonal variation in power obtained from panels will be extreme.  Still, I would invest in Solar as a componant of your power generation.  I have found some bargains on used solar panels on EBAY in the past, but lately, they seem to cost about as much as new panels.  This site has information on panels in a link from the front page, which I copied here for your convenience:  http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_solar.html  


WATER:  Although I don't have experience with this, I did stop to snap a couple photo's of, I think it was Scott's water turbine from a distance when I was out in Colorado.  There is a story about his turbine upgrade here:  http://www.otherpower.com/scotthydro1.html and some general information here:  http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_hydro.html  If I had a water source I could use near me I would certainly try to take advantage of it as an added measure of reliability in power production.  


WIND:  You will probably ultimately want to put up a wind generator.  Wind is sufficient at most locations to justify the effort and expense to put up a generator for a remote power installation.  You may want to start with a PM DC motor such as from a Tape Drive, or other source for its simplicity to start and then move up to axial flux or induction conversion as time, knowledge and economics permit.  The wind is not always blowing, but often, when the sun isn't out it is windy, or vise versa.  This site has a large wealth of information on this subject, and pages on almost every type of small wind generator imaginable.  Additionally, if you take one a project, you can get good advise from lots of friendly, helpful, and knowlegable people right from this discussion board.  


BACKUP GENERATOR:  No matter what types of systems you install, I would recommend a backup fossil fueled generator.  The lower rpm diesels appear to me from what I have read to be the most reliable over the years.  If your wind turbine has a failure, as all mechanical things do from time to time, and its dark out, and those are your only sources, you will need a generator and some fuel to get you through that period.  You may not need it all the time, but you'll likely be glad that you have it when you do.  This site has information on the subject here:  http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_gas.html, and the 'research and development' branch of otherpower did a recent project here that you might find interesting:  http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/9/20/16716/4310

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/9/27/152457/188

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/10/6/18257/3356

The project was spread out over time, but the first linked story has links back to the beginning of the project.  I bet that generator will be around a very long time.  


USAGE:  Even with a robust system, it is hard to imagine that you will have on hand as much power as you used in an on-grid home.  Therefore, conservation is important.  Incandescent lights are a luxury few can afford in an off grid system as the bulbs use three or four times as much power as flourescents or compact flourescents.  Energy efficient appliances, and elimination of phantom loads, for exampe the power consumed by a TV when not turned on, or a power adaptor plugged in when the device it powers is off is basically essential.  use of wall switches, and power supplies with switches can save you a significant amount of power, and reduce the required size of your system.  See the conservation section of this site here:  http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_conservation.html  Another way to make efficient use of your generation is to perform energy intensive tasks when the generation is greatest, or the fossil fuel generator is running.  This makes the most use of your battery bank by leaving it full.  Remember, that the deeper you discharge your battery bank, the shorter its lifetime will be.  I am assuming you will heat with wood, as electric in a remote system is impractical unless you have a large water resource or some other steady source, and even then you would want some redundancy.  Dumping your excess generation to a heating element when your batteries are full may ever so slightly reduce your wood consumption, but it cannot replace it.  


Well, that is about it as I see it.  You may have already read all of the links from this site, but I through them in just in case you hadn't as they are good information to have.  Keep us posted on your progress and good luck, but most of all, have fun in the process.  Rich Hagen

« Last Edit: November 12, 2005, 04:27:25 PM by richhagen »
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nothing to lose

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Re: going off grid-where to start?
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2005, 02:31:53 AM »
I love that very good post by richhagen.


However when money is limited you may have to work with what you have to get started and later when having more money or slowly over time work into the best items.

 If I had money to do it right from the very start I would take the advice posted by others. Working on a budget or broke, I have other ideas. Also you are not wanting much for power, 1.5kw per day for lights and TV? I've ran more than that on a cheapo 300watt inverter!


First although I agree a good low rpm diesel generator is best, you already have a gas one. Keep it for now and only use it as needed. Remove that cost for starting out. Also see what you need to power that well pump, buying a larger inverter may save it's own price by not needing to buy gasolene to pump water. 9amp gennie at 120V is 1080watts, if that powers the pump then perhaps a 1k inverter will also. I am geussing the pump is not maxing out the generator.


Voltage of system? Yes 48V is probably best. Also maybe more expensive. You will need 4 12V batteries or 8 6V batteries to make 48V system work. Everytime you need to expand your power storage you will need to add the same amount of batteries! Not as easy as adding 1 or 2 at a time as in a 12V system. At 48V one battery dies your system is down. At 12V if one dies just remove it (or 2 if using 6V batteries) and keep going with lower storage with the others.


The best batteries will give the longest life when properly cared for, also expensive to buy. I use used batteries I get from scrap yards and pulse charge for awhile to bring them back into service. $5 each or less, I buy by the pound so price varies with market. Not all batteries come back to life. For around $50 I got 10 very large Trojan batteries, 6 I could use. One battery would have cost way over $100 new for certain! 2 L16p 6V trojans in series are 12V 360amp hours. Compare that to 2 T105 trojans new for $140 and 12V @ 200 amp hours. Sometimes used batteries are a bargin if you can get them. I have used and abused my used ones, bouncing them around in a truck bed on bad dirt roads etc.. most still work, though I did loose two of them.

 I can buy used T105's tested to be good for $10 each from a golf cart repair place also. Get what you can get.


If you are buying the best inverters and paying big bucks to get started then you need to go with your best voltage right off also. However I am very happy with my AIMS 12V 5,000watt/10,000watt surge inverter. This inverter has powered anything I ever wanted to power provided I had the large enough battery bank to power it of course. I paid around $500 for mine new. I like it being 12V because I use it mobile also, so wire up 1 or 2 12v batteries and I can go into the woods with an electric chainsaw anytime :)

 I have ran my lathe and milling machine with it fine on 2 used L16p trojans.

The only thing that is a problem has been digital alarm clocks not keeping time, that happens with alot/most of modwave inverters though.


I have to geuss here, but you say 5.5 hours of daytime? Ok, wind has got to be your best bet I think. You already know starting out you don't have enough sun durring the day (in my opion anyway). I could be wrong, but can't really see how in a 24hr period of time you could posibly have less wind for power than what 5.5 hours of daylight would provide for solar. I mean solar pannels are not cheap! Near June when your getting into 19 hours of daylight, then maybe think solar, wind for now perhaps.

 I would look at the area quick for a place to raise a cheap PM motor with blades. While not the best windgennie you could build a cheapy for maybe $50 tops that should provide as much power in 24hrs (alot more) as 100watt solar pannel would provide in 5.5 hrs. Where could you get a 100 watt pannel for $50 :O

 Building a better windgennie of course would be even better. Unless your in a deep hole with no wind at all I think the wind is the best first bet.


To sum it up, you want 1.5kws a day. But how much all at one time is also the important thing. 1.5kw is only 62.5 watts per hour over 24hrs. Of course we know that's not how your gonna use it really. Your inverter needs to handle the most you will use all at once. For what you said,


"about 1.5 kw's a day for a few lights and a small amount of tv."


I have done more than that with a 300watt cheapy inverter, maybe $50. Maybe 3 CFL lights, small fan, DVD player (wired through VCR), VCR, Old 19" TV, all on at once. TV is a sudden surge when first plugged in and turned on and once I over loaded and shut down the inverter when I turned it on last. TV should be turned on First then other connected items. A Cheap Harbor Frieght 1000watt inverter is on sale right now for $80 (regular $130). For no more than you want to do that should power you up very well and room to spare.


Depending on prices in Alaska or shipping costs etc.. you should be able to build a decent system to get started fast for under $500 :)



  1. k inverter on sale at HF $80
  2. new T105 trojans new $70 each, $280.  400 amps hours at 12V. (you need 125amps per day at 12V 1.5kw and not good to discharge too low.)


Used permanant magnet motor with homemade blades and what you can scrounge for a tower, guy wire, some clamps, etc.. you have about a $50 windmill, maybe a $100 if you get fancy.


 That's around $410-$460, plus taxes? A bit left over for rectifiers and wire. Figuring brand new batteries. If you luck out and find used ones like I buy, then $50 for more battery power than you need, cut $230 from the above costs.

 You also need a dumpload for when batteries are full charged, look on this site for info on that. Should be cheap and easy to build it, dump load can heat water or provide extra heat to the house when wind is blowing and batteries are full charged.


One thing I do like about 12V is it is the most portable and versital voltage. Since I also use inverters remotely as portable power I carry large batteries in my truck and charge while I drive, 12V works great, can't do that with 24V or 48V in a normal pickup truck.


 If you are building a big system for alot more power and have the money to buy the best then I would do things differently. To get started cheap with a decent system for low power needs I would be happy with the $500 setup to begin with, then biuld a better larger system latter and use this first one for a backup or other use. Batteries are really the biggest expense in a cheap system, and the batteries can be used in a better system later perfectly fine. Also the wind genie could be used in a different volt system too. Only thing really limited to just 12V is the inverter, it can be used for other uses like portable power in the woods or in a truck when not needed for the home. So nothing is wasted really if later you change to a better more expensive and higher voltage system like 48V. Just have to re-wire everything and replace the $80 inverter which can still be used other ways.

« Last Edit: November 13, 2005, 02:31:53 AM by nothing to lose »

jimjjnn

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Re: going off grid-where to start?
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2005, 07:15:22 AM »
NTL, I solved my problem with digital alarm clocks failing during power outages by buying 2 radio adjusted alarm clocks at radio shack. Mine are batt powered and I haven't changed batts in 3 years.

RS also has a lot of radio adjusted clocks and clock radios. The time is set by radio frequency from the nuclear clock in Boulder, Colorado through a radio link in Ft. Collins, Colorado, and from there to links throughout the US and possibly other parts of the world.


Just a thought

« Last Edit: November 13, 2005, 07:15:22 AM by jimjjnn »

Experimental

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Re: going off grid-where to start?
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2005, 10:37:12 AM »
   Hi Reuben,

   Haveing a cabin, that for four years now, has been operating on one solar panel and occationally, a wind genrator -- I say occational wind, because, the firt gen I put up, was destroyed by lightning, three days after erection !!

   After that experience, the tower has been redone,and down, durring any expected lightning !!BUT, the new gen is only about 150 watt max, and seldom puts out more than about 100 watts, normally ....

   That gives me a total of, about 160 watts per hour durring daylight, and 100 or so at night --- depending on the wind !!

   Batteries, as far as I am concerned -- are to important to me, to use anything, but new , and at the moment, consists of two Trojan L16,s ...

   If I were not solely dependent, on these batteries -- perhaps, I might try some used -- but as I feel, the entire system is dependent on good storage capacity -- I bought new !!

   I also have a 2500 watt, gas generator and use that for running the microwave, or other heavy amperage drawing equipment..

   Heat, cook stove, hot water tank and refrigerator, are all RV items, running on propane..

   Several lights, are 12 volt DC, and used for reading, etc -- but most are 110 AC, supplyed from a 2500 watt inverter, as well as the wall recepticles !!

   Your situation is somewhat different, as the available sunlight up there, is very poor, in winter -- BUT, most of all, you have to practice conservation, anywhere !!

   I would recommend a wind gen, of the dual rotor, axual flux, like Dan B builds, and really good tower !!  (well grounded too !!)

   I always spend, one or more months at the cabin, at a time, watch TV, several hours each evening and have never run the batts down -- So, what you want to do, can be done -- but you can,t do it, without, good reliable equipment, and that converts to, spending a considerable ammount of money -- not a fortune, but considerable !!

    Incidently, water is in a 1350 gallon tank, about 15' above the cabin and gravity feed, down to a 12 volt RV pressure pump ..

   The gas generator is used to power the well pump, to fill the tank, about once a month...

   Give a lot of thought, to little things like that, and good luck with your project,   Bill H...
« Last Edit: November 13, 2005, 10:37:12 AM by Experimental »

AKR

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Re: going off grid-where to start?
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2005, 05:30:04 AM »
wow, thanks to everyone for all of the responses. i have quite a bit of information to soak in and sort through, so just a few comments for now. i don't want to get into wind power yet because from what i've found on my area, we don't get more than 5-6 mph average wind, i hear that isn't very good. i know it increases as you get further off the ground, so i think in order for me to get any power worth my trouble, i'd have to have a fairly tall tower. so before i mess with wind power, i'd like to study my actual site and get a better idea of what i have to work with. i have way to many things to work on right now, so i don't want to deal with something that might not do me any or much good.


i think i might go with what Danb suggested and start off with a decent sized battery bank and a good inverter. my girlfriend and i were thinking of just using her laptop with it's battery to start off with, but we want to use our houses batteries as soon as possible, so i might as well start with a good inverter. i'm used to conserving energy and quite prepared to do so once i move in. hell, we're going to wash our clothes by hand and hang dry them. i'm also looking at getting LED christmas lights to string them around the house when i want to conserve power. it's incredible how much power those things save compared to the incondescent onces.


another reason to start off with a 24v or 48v system is that i don't want to rewire the place. i didn't even know about that until "nothing to lose" mentioned it. i have a bunch of 12-2 (or 14-2?) wire from an old construction job that i'd like to use. can that be used on a 24 or 48v system? i'm still trying to wrap my head around all the electrical jargon.


Clifford actually brought up a point about solar panels that i was wondering about. how much can you really expect out of a solar panel? is there a difference in solar gain based on seasons? obviously there is the time amount of sun, but how about an hour worth of sun in the winter as compared to the summer? alright, that's it for now. thanks again, Reuben

« Last Edit: November 15, 2005, 05:30:04 AM by AKR »

wdyasq

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Laptop
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2005, 06:59:15 AM »
All the laptops I ahve seen are happy on 12V DC in.  It will not charge the batts but will run the computer.


Ron

« Last Edit: November 15, 2005, 06:59:15 AM by wdyasq »
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BigBreaker

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Re: going off grid-where to start?
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2005, 07:38:12 AM »
I haven't seen anyone mention solar water heating yet.  Thermodynamically heating requirements should be the easiest thing for an RE system to handle.  Unfortunately your solar resources are small when the need for heat is the largest but every bit counts.  Solar heaters can be pretty cheap to make and make in big sizes so I'd recommend reading up on that as well.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2005, 07:38:12 AM by BigBreaker »

Gary D

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Re: going off grid-where to start?
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2005, 08:31:18 AM »
AKR, the biggest question to me is will the gas generator handle the surge amps required for your well pump? It takes quite a lot more amps to get the pump started, than keep it running. If you can, try a practice pumping into the pressure tank at the cut in pressure(shut any outgoing water from tank off)... Then if it works, GREAT! You can drain down the water out of the tank so no freezing occures until you move in.

 As for the low winds in your area, during late fall thru early spring in most areas, winds pick up about 1 wind class, making wind power in your case probably cheaper than the gas needed for your generator in the long run. But if you're running the generator anyway, you can charge the battery bank at the same time thru the inverter(if not running the well pump). Possibly not worth 2 cents... Gary D.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2005, 08:31:18 AM by Gary D »

Gary D

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Re: going off grid-where to start?
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2005, 08:42:12 AM »
A link to the potential surge/ other problems with startup... Story is just up a few posts from yours if the link doesn't work... Gary D.

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/11/14/1377/7833
« Last Edit: November 15, 2005, 08:42:12 AM by Gary D »

AKR

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Re: going off grid-where to start?
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2005, 03:08:14 PM »
Gary, i already used the well pump with the gen when i was spraying down my foundation gravel for compaction. it's a shallow well and shallow well pump. it's only 17 feet down and about 50 feet to my house. i used it with no problems. the luck of a shallow water table and no codes! and yes, i plan on charging my batteries with the gen whenever i happen to be using it and have extra juice. there IS quite a bit of wind in the fall (enough to push small planes BACKwards in the air), but i don't know that there is enough wind during the winter to make it useful to bother with this year. thanks, Reuben
« Last Edit: November 15, 2005, 03:08:14 PM by AKR »

AKR

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Re: going off grid-where to start?
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2005, 03:11:47 PM »
i actually found a pdf file for solar heating in cold climates but was unable to download it due to my computer being a little screwy right now. know any links to some non-pdf files?
« Last Edit: November 15, 2005, 03:11:47 PM by AKR »

AKR

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Re: Laptop
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2005, 03:15:02 PM »
i should have mentioned that mine is a desk top. i hear those might be a little pickier with inverters. we have an online business we're trying to get going, so if we could run both comps, that would be ideal.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2005, 03:15:02 PM by AKR »

wdyasq

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12v Computer
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2005, 06:23:10 PM »
http://www.mini-box.com/site/index.html


Has 12V DC powersupply for computer.


Ron

« Last Edit: November 15, 2005, 06:23:10 PM by wdyasq »
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nothing to lose

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Re: going off grid-where to start?
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2005, 09:13:08 PM »
Thanks I might look into those.

I wonder if the clock gains/loses time on a mod wave inverter if that will fix the problem also? If they are battery operated I geuss it would not be a problem anyway.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2005, 09:13:08 PM by nothing to lose »