Author Topic: Need Ideas for Community Power  (Read 1837 times)

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velacreations

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Need Ideas for Community Power
« on: April 20, 2005, 08:35:30 PM »
Hi,


I am part of a project that is helping a small community (20 families) in Mexico. We are all learning how to put together a wind system.  There is an exceelent electric infrastructure here, as this community used to be connected to the grid.  Every house is wired, and there are powerlines and poles throughout the town.


We need ideas on how to combine the existing infrastructure into a community wind generator project.  We have been thiking about big wind gennys that charge the "grid line" and each house have batteries for a virtual battery bank.


Our obstacles are limited funds (of course), some decent distances between homes

(300 ft or so in places), and of course the wind genny learning curve.  I would appreciate ideas towards overcoming these obstacles and creating a model for surrounding villages.


Everyone is willing to put in the time it takes, and we have an enormouse community spirit, which constitues our biggest advantages.


Any and all ideas are welcome.


Feel free to email me, as well.


Thanks,

Abe

« Last Edit: April 20, 2005, 08:35:30 PM by (unknown) »

picmacmillan

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Re: Need Ideas for Community Power
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2005, 04:13:22 PM »
well, with limited funds you could have a bunch of folks research or what i might suggest , is everyone chip in a bit of money and send one or 2 of you to hugh piggots next windmill building course...that person or persons could go back and teach the rest how to do it..that way you will have someone with some real direct experience on what will be needed....in my opinion it takes a year to a year and a half of constantly being on here, asking questions and going from there...it would be nice if you knew of someone in your community that had experience in this field as nothing beats someone showing you, right in front of you, what needs to be done...just my opinion, but good luck on your quest...this is absolutely time spent well, by learning how to make electrical powert from scratch ,.good luck..pickster.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2005, 04:13:22 PM by picmacmillan »

drdongle

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Re: Need Ideas for Community Power
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2005, 05:38:17 PM »
Pic made some very good points. I also want to say make sure that you can get permission to use the electrical utility facilities that you say you have, I'm assuming that they are not currently in use. But they may still be considered the property of the local utility. If you can have the use of these facilities, they you will most likely have to rework some of it, as the transformers for the high tension portion probably won't be usable. you will also have to decide what method of distribution ( AC or DC) you will use and just how you will utilize it at each home. There are LOTS of variable here. In fact it might be simpler to simply give each household, or a cluster of households it's own wind turbine and then avoid a bunch of these issues.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2005, 05:38:17 PM by drdongle »

John II

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Re: Need Ideas for Community Power
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2005, 05:56:28 PM »
With just 20 families, I'd be inclined to suggest just build 20 wind chargers homemade like the ones being built on this forum and use one for each household. I think it might be more economical then purchasing a large one, and everyone trying to share it's resources without one person using two much leaving the others without.


A lot of it depends on just how much power each household is planning on using.


You could purchase one or more Jacobs 20 kw wind plants, let them charge a central bank of batteries and use a large bank of inverters to send the power off. The problem with this plan is if something fails, everyone may be without power. The advantage is, you have a huge stack of paralleled output inverters to run some really big loads on rare occasions. You would also need a diesel backup unit, because how do you tell one neighbor he's using to much power as compared to the next door neighbor on a low wind day ?


I mention Jacobs just because they are highly reliable.. there are others to, but many are quite expensive.


The advantage of having a smaller home made wind generators for everyone, is you'll produce more power than a Jacobs, and even if there is a unit that has problems,

There's still power available from the neighbor. Also it makes each house hold more aware of it's energy usages and greatly encourages practical conservation.


If you are still able to connect to the grid and it is permissible by the utility company, you could install a used large syncrous wind turbine and use it to pay down the village's electrical bill. You would be using the grid for your battery and not need batteries or inverters, yet the wind generator investment would be supplementing everyones electrical usages.


I'm sure there are many other options too...


Some of the things to build your plan on, is to see how much each person can economically afford to invest, and see what amount of power usage they may each demand.


John II

« Last Edit: April 20, 2005, 05:56:28 PM by John II »

nothing to lose

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Re: Need Ideas for Community Power
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2005, 07:03:01 PM »
My first question that I don't think has been asked yet, WHY don't they have power now?


"this community used to be connected to the grid."


I think it would take far more money to try to set up one main source of power than for each home to have it's own.


My basic thought is give each home a good windmill and some batteries etc.. If they can use DC fine, no inverter needed, if AC is required then they need the inverter. Each home supplies it's own power.


Use the grid as a means of dumpload, by this I mean when one home is full charged dump the excess into the grid, the grid stores the excess till someone needs it.

If this grid is down now and going to stay that way, then normal grid requirements do not exist like 60 cycle 120V etc... If the town basically owns the grid, do what ever best suits the town, just do not ever connect to a real grid!


SO, a way for everyone to dump into the existing structure needs to be found that also lets them draw power back out if needed. Maybe for this a transformer could be used?

Each home uses the exact same type so they all match up. When batteries are full the dump kicks in, takes the DC volts (or AC) pumps it into a transformer and feeds back to the grid lines as AC, at a central storage point batteries are connected and another transformer to convert back down to battery volts, or maybe just alot of bridge rectifiers for DC and forget the volts, make the bank there any DC Volts you want. That bank is conneted to the grid lines also to feed it the same as the homes except it is always on.


Now if a home on the North side of town is getting lots of wind and the batteries are full charged, the excess is feed into the grid. If a home on the South end of town has no wind and batteries low, they are charging from the grid as needed. This goes for all houses all the time, the main storage bank  at a central location is feeding the grid also from the excess it has collected from all homes at various times. And of course you put mills there to charge the main bank also.


If properly setup I think this could be the best way to power all homes now and add more later also.


 What is the power needs for these homes anyway? Like what will they be running? TV/VCR/DVD/Microwaves,Frig? Probably not right, so power needs should be basically low now and kept that way. So a system like the above should work very well.


To help prevent a few from being major power hogs put a system into place to reward those that provide power to others. Maybe charge 10 cents for 1 KW used, pay 10 cents for 1 KW supplied. Those who are using the most will be paying for it if more than they made themselfs, and those using the least will be paid for all that excess they provided. The profit to the system comes from the power gained from the mills at the central storage site since those belong to the system not the homes.


 If somethng happens like a bad storm that takes out the grid for awhile, each home still has it's own power.


 Lots of details there that would need to be worked out, but I think in general that would be the best way. Otherwise you have to make the power in one place, major storage, and how to convert it to that much power to feed all homes at once?


With my above system idea, your grid is really just charging batteries at homes as needed, not powering them from that central location.

« Last Edit: April 20, 2005, 07:03:01 PM by nothing to lose »

johnlm

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Re: Need Ideas for Community Power
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2005, 09:02:42 PM »
I also wonder why they once had power - and still have the nice electric infanstructure but now do not have power.  How successful you will be may setting up a commune power system be contingent on the answer to that issue.  Unless there is some hidden information here maybe the simplest approach is to get the power turned back on. If thats not possible then you really need to understand the power requirements of the various households to understand how big of a system is required and whether it is affordable - by everyone.

John
« Last Edit: April 20, 2005, 09:02:42 PM by johnlm »

Geo K

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Re: Need Ideas for Community Power
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2005, 11:17:46 PM »
Abe.

What resourses do you have?

 Like old cars,Farm machinery,large electric motors.

They would be a source of spindles,gear boxes,and generators.

I think you should try to produce 220 volts AC and keep the size of

 the turbines to 5 kw (20 ft prop) or less. Things get complicated

fast with big turbines.


GeoK

« Last Edit: April 20, 2005, 11:17:46 PM by Geo K »

Gary D

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Re: Need Ideas for Community Power
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2005, 07:02:25 AM »
Several questions not asked yet... are the homes batteries being used now and recharged by some means/ car charged from an alternator or other? What voltage/s are the battery banks? Are you talking banks of one or two batteries per household, or strings of them (lots of amps required to recharge per home)? If discharged for long periods of time, the batteries could be destroyed... Do you have a decent average windspeed/ anenometer on site to get true readings? As previous posters have said, nothing is imposible- with community spirit and willing helping hands!
« Last Edit: April 21, 2005, 07:02:25 AM by Gary D »

velacreations

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GREAT RESPONSE!!!!
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2005, 11:44:40 AM »
Thank you for your interest!


Ok, now to the issues:

I am somewhat experienced with building small wind generators (400 watts or less) here at my home, so we have that going for us.


They currently use a few solar panels and some batteries for each house.


The infrastructure is there because back in the late 50's this was a bigger town with access to the border of the USA.  Since then, the border has closed, industry has left.  They had a grid that was powered by big deisel generators that are now only a memory.


We do have lots of junk to work with, and everyopne is willing to work hard and find what we need.


We are currently planning to do one bigger wind genny, based on the experiences from Hugh, this board, and over 2 years of research by myself, so I think we are on the right track in that regard.


I was just thiking that since the lines and poles are there, we might use them in some way.  I like the dumpload-grid idea.  There might be some potential in that idea.


The electrical needs are very low.  Mostly lights (DC, low-watts), a TV here or there, radios, possibly a small fridge.  At this stage, we are just starting slow and small, but we would like to plan to grow into it.


The pole could be used for towers, they are concrete and very strong.  Most of them are about 10 meters.  The power lines are the same as residential (440 volt??? AC) power lines in the USA.  There are some things like transformers, etc, but I am not sure they will work for anything.


Reconnection o the grid is not feasible.  Buying a big wind generator is not feasible.  Making our own from salvage is VERY FEASIBLE AND DOABLE.  We do have one welder, and some basic tools, so it is not out of our reach, we jut have to play with it to make it work in our favor.


Thanks a lot!

Abe

« Last Edit: April 21, 2005, 11:44:40 AM by velacreations »

nothing to lose

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Re: GREAT RESPONSE!!!!
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2005, 02:04:20 PM »
"The infrastructure is there because back in the late 50's this was a bigger town with access to the border of the USA.  Since then, the border has closed, industry has left."


Where abouts would this town be, anywhere near Brownsville Texas? Does not matter really, just wondering.


"They currently use a few solar panels and some batteries for each house."


That might help in setting up a dump load grid I mentioned, if some homes are already set up for solar then they have some things already that can still be used.


"The infrastructure is there because back in the late 50's this was a bigger town with access to the border of the USA.  Since then, the border has closed, industry has left.  "


Pardon the expresion but is this turning into somewhat of a ghost town then. Empty homes, land, buildings, etc... scattered around fairly cheap to buy? When you say border closed, how hard is it to travel Mexico/Usa if I wanted to come down to visit sometime, would I have alot of trouble getting there? Are there other towns nearby that are still doing well or is this an isolated area somewhat, and what is the employment situation for this town/ area. Pardon all the questions, not trying to be nosey really, just have a couple strange thoughts in mind. I often do :)


"We do have lots of junk to work with, and everyopne is willing to work hard and find what we need."


That always helps alot! About how many people is this town? Population and adults only. I know you said about 20 homes, would that be around 40-50 adults and lots of kids?


"I was just thiking that since the lines and poles are there, we might use them in some way.  I like the dumpload-grid idea.  There might be some potential in that idea."


I kinda like it too :)

 Alot of details to figure out, but might be a great way to start out the way I am thinking of it. I cannot do anything at this time, but perhaps about 5 months away I could have an idea for something pretty good, so keep in touch. I'd be pretty interested in how this works out and would like to see it work well.

 I have the idea now, but to many things to do. I will be tied up all summer and much of Fall, till Oct. or later.


"The electrical needs are very low.  Mostly lights (DC, low-watts), a TV here or there, radios, possibly a small fridge.  At this stage, we are just starting slow and small, but we would like to plan to grow into it."


 Keeping it small to start with may be important untill everything is known to work well and how to properly add and monitor things repair broken parts etc.. and the abilty to expand later is also very important of course. It is always easier to conserve power than it is to make it, and since they have little power now, they should be able to conserve and use it wisely as the grid is built. As long as they don't get excited and buy every electric item they can find they should do real well!


"The pole could be used for towers, they are concrete and very strong.  Most of them are about 10 meters.  The power lines are the same as residential (440 volt??? AC) power lines in the USA.  There are some things like transformers, etc, but I am not sure they will work for anything."


This could be usable. There are several ways to "backfeed" electric into an existing grid like in the USA. For instance using a power source of some type to over speed an AC motor will cause it to generate electric. So if you have the correct type equipment, in THEORY if the grid were powered up, you could run an AC motor on the grid power and that syncronizes the motor to the grid, then using another motor of some type (like gas or diesel engine) you over speed the AC motor and it will produce power syncronized with the grid. If the grid goes down the AC motor stops producing power even though it is still spinning fast. Kinda a nice built in safety feature.

 You want to avoid gas/deisel engines of course.


Now I mention that for several reasons because it could be useful here in various ways, but first you need the power for the AC motor. Main thing is it kinda shows that producing 110Vac at the house can power the grid, when you do this motor thing, if done right if you are not using the power at the house yourself, then it travels back through the meter up to the transformer and back into the grid. With some meters it actually turns them backwards erasing the power you used earlier.

 So if your grid structure is in good shape, then you should be able to use the same principal to back feed the grid from all the homes, though we need to figure a better way than the AC motor. You can buy grid tie inverters but they are far to expensive and for this type setup probably should be avoided. We need some other way that is efficient and cheap.


Another thought is all those power poles, very nice towers maybe for lots of wind gennies, build lots of smaller ones to feed the lines, but then how to syncronize them all to the line is a problem to be worked out. So what we need is to find away to cheaply convert DC volts to AC volts and everything uses the same. An Alternator produces AC volts to begin with, but no 2 units will be exactly the same volts/cycles since they are dependant on the wind. We could rectify the AC to DC then feed the same hardware the homes use to convert it back to match the grid lines, but that seems like a waste and should be away to match them up as AC to begin with. Can't think of a way off hand myself, maybe some-one here can.


"Making our own from salvage is VERY FEASIBLE AND DOABLE.  We do have one welder, and some basic tools, so it is not out of our reach, we jut have to play with it to make it work in our favor."


 As you begin working on this system be sure to take lots of photos of everything you do and keep really good notes. Not only will it help later if you need to come back and fix/change something, once everything is running near perfect you can put it all on the web or publish a book of the "MODEL RE ONLY COMMUNITY" .

 Putting it on the Web as you go, kinda day by day, may also be very helpfull to you also.


Are there other towns around your area that have the same type power problem.


Good luck

« Last Edit: April 21, 2005, 02:04:20 PM by nothing to lose »

velacreations

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Re: GREAT RESPONSE!!!!
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2005, 02:42:49 PM »
The town is located near Big Bend National Park.  The town is called Boquiallas, Coahila.  There is no sort of employment or income in the town, most people scrape-by with some tourist items or working far away in other communities.


You would be more than welcome to come visit, although I might put you to work!  We can always use extra minds and extra hands.


As far as the population, I would say about 100 people.  About 50-60 adults and at least 40 kids.  It comes out to about 20-30 families.


It is reaslly not a ghost-town, just a far out town in the middle of the Chihuahuan desert.  There are many towns like this along the border in this area, but they are spaced at least 50 miles apart.


Fossil fuels are absolutely not an option, as they are expensive and in my mind, not dependable.  We really want to focus on wind power.


Doing small gennies at each house is doable, and that is our current plan.  We have set up using Ametek design, but I want to start lookng at something more efficient and powerful.  The dual-rotor machines on this site are awesome, but finding funds to get one built will take a little while.


Ok, so here's another question, what's the fastest and easiest wind generator to make to achieve around 400 watts max?  Basically, a cheaper Air X or 403.  I had hoped the ameteks might lead to this, but they are very limited.  So are the treadmill motors.  I am thiking something like the dual rotor desig, but with less magnets (cheaper) and less wire, so we can get about 5-15 amps in less than a 30 MPH wind.


I do have a bunch of ceiling fans, but I don't have any magnets or wire.  I was thiking of just using the ceiling fan hubs, slapping on some metal and some cheaper NEOs (like 1.5" X 3/4" X 1/4") and maybe salvage some copper from my junk yard.


Thanks for the input!

« Last Edit: April 21, 2005, 02:42:49 PM by velacreations »

velacreations

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Re: GREAT RESPONSE!!!!
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2005, 02:46:57 PM »
Also, feel free to email me, if you so desire.


Thanks,

Abe

« Last Edit: April 21, 2005, 02:46:57 PM by velacreations »

nothing to lose

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Re: GREAT RESPONSE!!!!
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2005, 03:43:34 PM »
"Fossil fuels are absolutely not an option, as they are expensive and in my mind, not dependable.  We really want to focus on wind power."


 Yes, I had just metioned the others as a means to spin a motor, not suggesting using such feuls at all.


"Doing small gennies at each house is doable, and that is our current plan.  We have set up using Ametek design, but I want to start lookng at something more efficient and powerful.  The dual-rotor machines on this site are awesome, but finding funds to get one built will take a little while."


They are alittle expensive, and yes they are very good, most likely the best value for power if you have the wind to run them. Another member is starting to build kits, also very good, but not cheap.


"Ok, so here's another question, what's the fastest and easiest wind generator to make to achieve around 400 watts max?  Basically, a cheaper Air X or 403.  I had hoped the ameteks might lead to this, but they are very limited.  So are the treadmill motors.  I am thiking something like the dual rotor desig, but with less magnets (cheaper) and less wire, so we can get about 5-15 amps in less than a 30 MPH wind."


I do not think those are very good options from what I have read about them, you would be far better to spend the money buying parts and build the kit or dual rotor types.

 You can build the daul rotor type with only one rotor you know, it does not make as much power, but is very good, uses only half the magnets.


A user named Jerry and others have had good luck converting AC motors also by installing magnets and sometimes changing the connection of the coils inside, sometimes not changing anything. Maybe do a search for AC motor conversion and similar phrases. Maybe be the cheapest fastest way to start if you can find the motors cheap or free.


"I do have a bunch of ceiling fans, but I don't have any magnets or wire.  I was thiking of just using the ceiling fan hubs, slapping on some metal and some cheaper NEOs (like 1.5" X 3/4" X 1/4") and maybe salvage some copper from my junk yard."


You can try some, but I don't think very many people have had much luck with those.

I would do a search for those also, maybe get better ideas for them than I have had. Maybe some have worked well, I think Jerry I mentioned had one he was trying and thought would work, I never saw the result for that one, not sure if he finished it yet.


 Anything that works is a good start of course, and I try all kinds of things here, some good some not so good, never know what works till you try, or read some-one elses results doing the same thing :)


 I learn what not to do by other peoples failures, then I go out and fail in some new way :)

 Just a joke, but sometimes true. But if you never fail it's because you never try, and therefore you will never succeed either, the way I look at it.

« Last Edit: April 21, 2005, 03:43:34 PM by nothing to lose »

ghurd

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Re: GREAT RESPONSE!!!!
« Reply #13 on: April 22, 2005, 08:52:53 AM »
These are some nice magnets for a very good price.


http://www.wondermagnets.com/cgi-bin/edatcat/WMSstore.pl?user_action=detail&catalogno=0076


Otherpower neo #0076.  The quantity price is even lower!


G-

« Last Edit: April 22, 2005, 08:52:53 AM by ghurd »
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finnsawyer

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Re: Need Ideas for Community Power
« Reply #14 on: April 22, 2005, 10:05:50 AM »
Aren't there international groups that fund projects like this?  Oxfam?  You might try doing some Googling to see what you can scare up.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2005, 10:05:50 AM by finnsawyer »

Nando

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Re: Need Ideas for Community Power
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2005, 10:44:56 PM »
I am trying again, it seems that my initial message did not "appeared"


Contactme directo que te puedo ayudar : nando37-at-comcast-dot-net

Contact me directly, I can help you : nando37-at-comcast-dot-net


Saludos


Nando

« Last Edit: April 22, 2005, 10:44:56 PM by Nando »