Author Topic: Why Not Yaw Control??  (Read 5233 times)

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SamoaPower

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Why Not Yaw Control??
« on: June 26, 2006, 01:22:14 AM »
I've read about problems and issues concerning yaw of our wind machines. Problems such as, gyroscopic forces during violent yaw changes causing bending of magnet rotors to strike a stator, blades hitting the tower and the like come to mind. Also, issues about whether to use slip rings or not, cable twisting, yaw bearing type are also commonplace. One of the reasons two-bladed air rotors are discouraged is because of yaw problems.


Most of these issues could be mitigated if we took another lesson from the big boys. What I mean by `another' is that we can add yaw control to the list of servo controlled variable pitch and electronic load control. Many of the utility class machines utilize some form of yaw control since they don't want those monsters left solely to the whim of the wind. Unless you're fortunate enough to have a clear site with consistent non-turbulent wind, you are going to face these problems no matter the size of your machine.  


Fortunately, yaw control is the easiest of the three to do. Consider this: Wouldn't it be nice to completely eliminate tail feathers, no tail boom or vane and to have furling under total control? Controlled yaw rates will minimize stresses on components and should certainly enhance reliability. The issues of slip rings, cable twisting and yaw bearing freedom simply go away. Yaw control also allows free choice of upwind or downwind configuration. Downwind is nice because blades are bent AWAY from the tower under thrust loads instead of toward it.


The down side? I can see the bunch that abhor complexity and worship the god KISS leaping to their keyboards to denounce this approach as frivolous, complex, unnecessary and expensive. I think they would prefer that we stay in the stone age and bat around the same old issues over and over. Sorry, not my cup of tea. I'd rather have a solution even though complex. Yes, by some definitions it is complex but so is your computer, TV, car and microwave oven. The advantages justify it.


One way to do it:

There are numerous ways to mechanically accomplish yaw control. The way I've chosen and implemented is simply a rotating mast carried in two thrust bearings spaced three feet apart and driven by a ham antenna rotator. The mill is mounted rigidly to the top of the mast and the mast assembly is side mounted on the top of the tower (in my case, a 50 foot utility pole). The mast length above the upper thrust bearing is a little more than the radius of the air rotor. The thrust bearings carry the vertical load so the rotator only has to supply rotational and braking forces. Since the rotator only rotates 360 degrees, a slop loop in the cables around the rotator takes care of getting the power down without complication.


The electronic controller isn't done yet although I've sketched it out. It's awaiting a time slot for when I put on my electronics hat again. There're a few projects ahead of it, which is okay since the machine isn't finished yet. Basically, it inputs wind speed, wind direction and rotator positional feedback. It then turns the rotator to match the average wind direction. Rotator speed is about one RPM so it's gentle on the machine. Gusts and turbulence are integrated to find the average direction. Wind speed is only used for furling and is adjustable to furl at any speed. At the furl threshold, it introduces a ninety-degree offset to the direction data to position the machine out of the wind. It should be very positive furling without fuss.


None of this is very original. I fail to understand why the DIY crowd doesn't take more advantage of the thousands of man-hours and many kilobucks put into the professional machines and utilize their techniques. To put my money where my mouth is, I'm using all three of the previously mentioned control elements in my current 16-foot design.

« Last Edit: June 26, 2006, 01:22:14 AM by (unknown) »

harrie

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Re: Why Not Yaw Control??
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2006, 09:05:31 PM »
Yes,, this sounds very interesting, I for one would very much like to be able to use this method, I can understand the machinics of using the antena rotator, but the controler would be another matter. Will the controler you are working on, be able to read very light winds also??. the adjustable wind speed sensor for furl would really be great! Keep us informed,
« Last Edit: June 25, 2006, 09:05:31 PM by harrie »

SamoaPower

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Re: Why Not Yaw Control??
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2006, 09:42:42 PM »
Thanks harrie. The wind information will come from the site anamometer and wind vane so yes, the controller will sense any wind speed the anamometer does although I'm not sure why you would be interested in furling at low speeds.

« Last Edit: June 25, 2006, 09:42:42 PM by SamoaPower »

willib

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Re: Why Not Yaw Control??
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2006, 09:56:02 PM »
i like it.!!

especially the part where you have control over the mill position relative to the wind , that would be an advantage when it gets too windy..
« Last Edit: June 25, 2006, 09:56:02 PM by willib »
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TomW

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Re: Why Not Yaw Control??
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2006, 09:59:46 PM »
SamoaPower;




I'm not sure why you would be interested in furling at low speeds.



Maybe not needed to furl but be useful to track the wind more accurately?


Just an idea.


Cheers.


TomW

« Last Edit: June 25, 2006, 09:59:46 PM by TomW »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Why Not Yaw Control??
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2006, 10:04:18 PM »
The nice thing about mechanical yaw control is that it doesn't leave you with no furling when your computer blows its zap.


Since your computer is likely to blow its zap in a storm, when furling a furling failure can mean a disintigrating mill, with fragments of each blade taking on a short life as a mach 0.5 javelin, I'll stick with mechanical furling for anything near my house and loved ones.


If you want to use good bearings (instead of something self-limiting such as pipe-over-pipe) and need damping to keep your yaw rate over control, try a couple neo magnets and a hunk of copper pipe for an eddy-current yaw brake.  That will track down to a whisper of wind yet provide progressively more resistance at progressively higher yaw rates.

« Last Edit: June 25, 2006, 10:04:18 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

whatsnext

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Re: Why Not Yaw Control??
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2006, 10:47:12 PM »
Wouldn't it be even easier to just create a wind controller? It's the wind that creates all the problems like blade breakage and tower failures and stuff. And, since many builders here use, like, hammers and things to build their mills I'm thinking a huge system of computor controlled vanes that would direct the wind perfectly into their simplisticly built mills would be the way to go. Who needs KISS when we can just recreate even more complicated but smaller versions of megabuck giant mills?

Just a thought, John
« Last Edit: June 25, 2006, 10:47:12 PM by whatsnext »

SamoaPower

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Re: Why Not Yaw Control??
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2006, 10:58:16 PM »
You have a point Rod and it's often brought up by those who are interested in simplicity. Are you ready to replace your calculator with an abacus?


I'm a great believer in redunant systems when it comes to safety. In my case there will be three ways the mill will shut down in high winds. Of course, anything can fail and if you subscribe to Murphy, will.


It seems I've seen on this board recently, three reports of destructive failures where bits and pieces have been shed and all had mechanical furling. The problem with mechanical furling is the difficulty of adjustment and testing.


I'm not sure if you meant 'computer' literally or not. The yaw controller is quite simple, 2-3 chips and associated parts. No computer used.

« Last Edit: June 25, 2006, 10:58:16 PM by SamoaPower »

SparWeb

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Re: Why Not Yaw Control??
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2006, 11:30:36 PM »
Whatsnext,


SP's suggestion doesn't require sarcastic responses.  They aren't useful.


The problem is that 95% of this site's members are probably mechanically inclined.  I could only name a few who could figure out how to wire up a controller to drive the yaw servo (and I ain't one of them, either).  I will, however, read such posts carefully, because I care to learn about as many ways to "skin the cat" as possible.  Some are out of my reach, but not for others.  This site isn't just for the garage tinkerer, but people who seriously want to produce off-grid power for their homes / businesses.


If you don't think you can handle what's being discussed, move on instead of taking a pot-shot.  It's called "nettiquette".

« Last Edit: June 25, 2006, 11:30:36 PM by SparWeb »
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oztules

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Re: Why Not Yaw Control??
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2006, 11:35:26 PM »
Hi SamoaPower,


How far from square to the wind does the power drop off rapidly 5, 10, 20 degrees?


This may allow for very coarse adjustment of the angles into the wind, and hopefully the control mechanism will be simpler.


Just how accurately we need to track the wind will determine the complexity and desired reaction times required.


Interesting. Will await the results and design with interest.


..............oztules

« Last Edit: June 25, 2006, 11:35:26 PM by oztules »
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SparWeb

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Re: Why Not Yaw Control??
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2006, 11:40:34 PM »
SamoaPower,


Although doing so is a bit above my head, I thought I'd ask if you know how to isolate your device, and still allow it to function, after being struck by lightning?  That is the cause, after all, of one of the mill failures of which you speak.  If the mill turns backward to the wind in the case of yaw control failure, you may have a fail-safe system, as long as the reversal itself isn't too abrupt.


The other failure being a poor selection of adhesives, I think, I don't think your device would solve that.

« Last Edit: June 25, 2006, 11:40:34 PM by SparWeb »
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
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Flux

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Re: Why Not Yaw Control??
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2006, 12:38:27 AM »
Yes yaw control does make a lot of sense once you have a FOOLPROOF way to control the speed and keep things under control.


With a very well engineered passive blade pitch control once you have proved it to work then yaw control is a good idea. When people mention servo pitch control, my reaction is that the complicated and unreliable bit should be removed from there and put in the yaw, where failure is of no consequence.


Possibly one of the best ideas would be passive blade pitch control and a fan tail working through a reduction gear like the old windmills.


For a few people good at engineering and electronics, it should be possible to build perfectly satisfactory machines using servo pitch and yaw, it can be done, and done effectively, but it is not something to be lashed up out of a few bits of screwed rods and windscreen wiper motors.


Nearly all the failures we hear about are basic poor engineering and poor design.


I find a lot of people using methods so basic and crude for fundamental parts that failure seems likely. Some even compound the trouble by over engineering parts where it doesn't help and leave the poor parts where it does matter.


It is ok looking at the Big Boys, but they have spent years on development and testing and remember that these things have evolved. In the early period of the larger machines it was the Danes with their fixed pitch 3 blade machines and induction generators that got the industry under way, not Smith-Putnam or NACA with the high technology machines.


Just learn to walk before you run and anything is possible.


Flux

« Last Edit: June 26, 2006, 12:38:27 AM by Flux »

hvirtane

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Re: Why Not Yaw Control??
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2006, 04:12:35 AM »
Possibly one of the best ideas would be passive blade pitch control and a fan tail working through a reduction gear like the old windmills.


I'm in agreement with the above.


I think that a side vane with a worm

gear would be a good method to

turn the machine. Furling maybe

should be done upwards with a hinge

or maybe with a pitch control mechanism...


- Hannu

« Last Edit: June 26, 2006, 04:12:35 AM by hvirtane »

rpcancun

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Re: Why Not Yaw Control??
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2006, 09:22:35 AM »
-With a very well engineered passive blade pitch control once you have proved it to work then yaw control is a good idea.-


I've looked for such pitch ideas but havent found much do you know of any?

« Last Edit: June 26, 2006, 09:22:35 AM by rpcancun »

Flux

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Re: Why Not Yaw Control??
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2006, 10:31:04 AM »
Try googling pitch control, perhaps with Jacobs, Dunlite, Aerowatt.


Not much about it on this board but you will find some discussion.

Flux

« Last Edit: June 26, 2006, 10:31:04 AM by Flux »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Why Not Yaw Control??
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2006, 11:03:22 AM »
"computer" refers even to an analog feedback amplifier arrangement.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2006, 11:03:22 AM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Why Not Yaw Control??
« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2006, 12:29:21 PM »
I'm not sure why you would be interested in furling at low speeds.


Maybe not needed to furl but be useful to track the wind more accurately?


Below the windspeed that produces cutin voltage from the alternator you don't care where the mill is pointed.  Wind adequate to achieve cutin is adequate to make the mill track - unless your bearings are REALLY bad.

« Last Edit: June 26, 2006, 12:29:21 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Why Not Yaw Control??
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2006, 01:13:42 PM »
"computer" refers even to an analog feedback amplifier arrangement.


(Not sure why that ended up posted as a followup to the article but I'll repost it here where it belongs.)


Adjustment of a mechanical yaw contorl is actually simple:  Design it to furl too soon, then add weight to the tail to bring the furling wind speed up to where you want it.  It's not hard to do.  But it does require waiting for a wind high enough to make the mill furl - which requires patience to avoid overcompensating into extremely late furling.  The risk of destruction due to late furling occurs early in the mill's life, before this adjustment is made.  Once it's done, it's difficult to get anything  to break.


Part of the drill for designing a mill is to keep it inexpensive enough that it makes sense to bother.  Yaw control is fundamental to the operation.  A passive mechanical system involves two bearings, a tail, stops to keep the tail out of the blades, and positioning the axes of the three shafts (turbine, yaw, furling) properly when constructing the head.  Adjustment involves adding weight to (or removing weight from) the tail assembly or (if they weren't in the right ballpark in the first place) changing the length of the tail boom or the size of the tail.  Once set up properly points of failure are few.


Even a non-redundant active system involves wind direction and speed detectors (with bearings and electronics that can fail), a computer, a servo motor, a yaw position sensor, interconnecting cables, and a power supply.  They must run 24/7/365 (even when the mill is shut down for maintainence - at least until the rotor is tied down) for the life of the mill.  At least some of these parts are located on a tower well above surrounding objects, making it a likely target for lightning.  (Putting part of the electronics elsewhere increases the vulnerability.)


That adds up to a lot more points of failure - many of them far more fragile than bearings.  So it implies a much higher failure rate to go with the higher cost.  It also requires a lot more things be gotten RIGHT to make it work at all - and a broader range of engineering skills to design it.


But redundancy as a solution?  Now you've increased the costs and the engineering needs a second time.  Are you going to mount multiple wind sensors?  Have multiple computers?  Multiple yaw motors?  How do you orchestrate failure detection, so an insane machine doesn't take over the show?  Do you have separate batteries for the computers to keep them alive during calm periods (or when the house batteries fail)?  Solar panels to keep those batteries charged?


As for simplicity and abacaii:  "A system should be as simple as necessary but no simpler."


I've done software for the auto industry - where nearly any program failure can be life critical:  Your car engine control goofs idle speed control and you stall a few feet after going through a stop sign.  Airbag tester screws up and it fires an airbag with a worker standing over it.  Energy management system screws up and the lights go out in the plant with the workers surrounded by moving machinery.  (To name hazards of just three projects I've worked on.)  One of my former colleagues once said I'm the only guy he'd trust to program his pacemaker.  B-)


For a homebrew mill I would NEVER pick an active yaw control.  As someone who's engineered active systems I'm all too aware of how easy it is to get them wrong.  Meanwhile, a well-debugged and reliable passive design is easily within the reach of even a newbie garage mechanic.  (For a megawatt commercial mill, with a team of engineers, a major construction, modeling, and testing budget, a periodic maintainence schedule religiously adhered to, and failure alarms bringing out the on-call emergency maintainence team, it might be a good idea.)

« Last Edit: June 26, 2006, 01:13:42 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: Why Not Yaw Control??
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2006, 01:18:23 PM »
Argh.  I really have to preview and edit these things.


The purported Einstein quote is "Things should be made as simple as possible -- but no simpler."  And the correct quote would have worked better, too.  B-)

« Last Edit: June 26, 2006, 01:18:23 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

Murlin

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Re: Why Not Yaw Control??
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2006, 02:28:09 PM »
I'm in dude!!!    Good Idea......Downwind and yaw control would be the bomb.....


Why not control it by your computer laptop inside your house?


You could have it an independant system and if the stator fried you could still shut it down.

A simple weathervane and anamometer on the ground would control the servo motor.


Conpile a computer program to add in an angular offset for wind speed increases to furl it....


In a storm, you still have batteries and would never really loose control.


You could even program the computer to furl it 90 to the wind and apply the brakes and stop it in case of an malfunction.


Way to think outside the box....


Murlin

« Last Edit: June 26, 2006, 02:28:09 PM by Murlin »

Murlin

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Re: Why Not Yaw Control??
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2006, 03:01:26 PM »
Nutin' like replying to your own post :)


Hey I had a wild Idea.... What about mechanical/hydrolic furling.


A down wind type turbine, with a centrafugel clutch on the front end of the shaft.


When the RPM gets high enough, it would enguage and start driving a small hydrolic pump that would power a cylinder on the vane that is on the front/wind side of the turbine causing it to furl.


Wind slows down, and the clutch releases and the pressure normalizes and slowly bleeds back through the return system and the vane returns to normal perpedicular to the blades.....


Just a crazy thought....


I kinda like it...


Murlin teh loves mechanical gizmos....

« Last Edit: June 26, 2006, 03:01:26 PM by Murlin »

SamoaPower

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Re: Why Not Yaw Control??
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2006, 04:47:48 PM »
Ah, a man of vision not swayed by the doom sayers.


Thanks Murlin, appreciate the comments.

Although there were some good points brought out in comments, the one I like the best was by Flux.


"Nearly all the failures we hear about are basic poor engineering and poor design."


Amen to that. If people were willing to put the necessary time and effort into the design and planning stage and are willing to learn what's necessary to make it a good, not just adequate, one, we would probably see a lot more out-of-the-box thinking.


My current effort, five months in design and still evolving (with some physical progress), incorporates features such as laminated (structurally not magnetically) aluminum magnet rotors with steel only where it needs to be, no resin castings, coils serving as structural elements in the stator with forced air cooling, servo controlled variable pitch, which I consider the most significant, servo yaw control, synchronous rectifiers, electronic load control and others. I guess I'm just a control freak.


At the risk of starting a mutual back-scratching society, I've been following your diary posts with interest and applaud your efforts. Shows some good thinking. I'm waiting until you get to the air rotor, I may have some comments for you. One comment here is I'm wondering if you've done a site wind survey. It's good to start at the beginning with known resources.


As to the computer for yaw control, I think it's a bit of over-kill. It would be a perfect job for a microprocessor (along with the pitch control) but the time necessary for development of hardware and software just isn't available right now so I'll stick with simple analog for the moment. When the DO list becomes shorter I'll look at it again.

« Last Edit: June 26, 2006, 04:47:48 PM by SamoaPower »

Murlin

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Re: Why Not Yaw Control??
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2006, 06:27:11 PM »
Thanks for the kind words.


This stuff is so cool.  While Simplicity is always best, sometimes it's hard to overlook the cool factor :)


I got to say that with a camera, all weather mic, and a computer, we talking Bigtime Major Kooldome!!!  Talking about having your finger on the switch.......


You could have all the controls there....the voltages, amps, breaks, everything....all on one (MOBILE is the optimum word)screen :)


Very temptingggg....in fact....... stay tuned......lol*.....man I have got my schedule taken care of till 2020.....lol


Yes, MIcro computer is the way to go though......not everone is computer geek.... :)


As far as wind survey,  naw...I just been paying attention....



  1. -80 MPH winds 4 times a year....
  2. - 30 MPH winds 15 %
  3. - 20 MPH 50%
  4. - 10 MPH 15%.......
  5. to 5 the rest....
  6. MPH average is very misleading.....


I am figuring like Dan to use the slower winds and keep it furled early to slow it down. (Dan is Da Man!!!).


There should be plenty of power. 4k easy with furled way in....I bet this thing puts out 8k with the gap close. No way I want to run it that hot though....

Along with a 2.5k solar, a 20' genny will be a very nice addition.


Murlin teh have much to do .....

« Last Edit: June 26, 2006, 06:27:11 PM by Murlin »

pepa

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Re: Why Not Yaw Control??
« Reply #23 on: June 26, 2006, 07:30:35 PM »
if for any reason the power to the yaw controller were lost, would the machine stop in one place or revert to a downwind mill with the blades backward? pepa
« Last Edit: June 26, 2006, 07:30:35 PM by pepa »

willib

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Re: Why Not Yaw Control??
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2006, 07:48:23 PM »
it should be geared , so i think it would stay put
« Last Edit: June 26, 2006, 07:48:23 PM by willib »
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SamoaPower

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Re: Why Not Yaw Control??
« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2006, 10:01:25 PM »
Oztules,

I would hazard a guess that a first order approximation of power vs. angle would be the cosine of the angle. There are, of course, other factors that would effect this. I don't think controlling in steps would simplify the controller much, if at all, since it's a simple matching function. Thanks for thinking about it.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2006, 10:01:25 PM by SamoaPower »

SamoaPower

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Re: Why Not Yaw Control??
« Reply #26 on: June 26, 2006, 10:21:25 PM »
pepa,

Willib is correct. Because of the gearing type in the yaw rotator, the machine would be locked in the last position without power. This is not a problem since if the wind is high enough to call for furling, the pitch controller would feather the blades and set the brake.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2006, 10:21:25 PM by SamoaPower »

sahlein

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Re: Why Not Yaw Control??
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2006, 11:18:11 PM »
has anyone thought of using something like a Stearns brake??.... They need power to unlock and let a motor run a load and then they lock up under spring tension when the power goes off.

An air version would work well with a small solenoid so it wouldn't use so much power when running.

One could use a small compressor as a dump load to charge an air resevior???

sahlein
« Last Edit: June 26, 2006, 11:18:11 PM by sahlein »

SamoaPower

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Re: Why Not Yaw Control??
« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2006, 11:37:57 PM »
Murlin teh Dauntless,

I had meant to say microcontroller rather than microprocessor on the previous comment. I've used them before but it does take a while to get from A to Z.


I'm green with envy of your site with those kind of winds. I'd seriously consider going off-grid if I had them.





The Rayleigh time distribution shows the annual percentage vs. speed for an annual average of 14 mph. The really significant curve is the energy distribution which peaks at about 23 mph. THIS is the speed for which you should optimize your machine efficiency. In my case, with an annual average speed of 10.3 mph, my energy peak is only 16 mph, a lot less energy harvest than what you have available.

« Last Edit: June 26, 2006, 11:37:57 PM by SamoaPower »

pepa

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Re: Why Not Yaw Control??
« Reply #29 on: June 27, 2006, 01:30:44 AM »
samoapower, i did a project a little while back, that turned the direction of a small outboard motor on a sailboat by wireless remote control using the motor and gear box from a 14 volt cordless drill motor and a reversing switch. i found that the pressure of the water passing the foot of the motor along with a couple of springs would bring the motor back to the forward position when the power to the drill motor was not on. i used pullys and a belt, insted of threaded rod, to turn the motor on the boat for a faster response in direction change. this type of geared motor is very strong but, would let the wind push the blades around into yaw if your controller power was interepted for some reason. just my thoughts pepa
« Last Edit: June 27, 2006, 01:30:44 AM by pepa »

richhagen

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Re: Why Not Yaw Control??
« Reply #30 on: June 27, 2006, 11:09:40 AM »
Hi Samoa, I've been following the thread a bit.  For the chart above, if you are charging a battery system, I would optimize for lower than 23MPH.  The reason is that we don't want the batteries to go down when the wind is slower.  If you look at the distribution, the wind spends more than half its time below 15MPH, sometimes this may go for more than a day or two.  Most remote systems don't have that large of battery capacity.  We need as much power into the batteries as we can get during the periods of lower winds, where it is more critical.  If the wind stays at high velocity, we will likely be dumping excess power anyway.  I would optimize more for the more common distribution around 12Mph.  That way, even if my total power generation is lower, we are getting as much power as possible into the batteries when we need it the most.  We would of course still generate more power at 23MPH than at 12, but less than if I had optimized for that speed. If we required a generator to backup, then we would likely use less fuel if we optimized for the lower wind speed.  Now for grid-tie, or some other application where the total power output, independent of timing, is the most important, then optimizing for 23MPH would make sense.


As for the pitch control, I would have to learn a bit before I could build one reliably.  I would think that if one backed it up with fail-safes such as pitch control as Flux suggested, or a tilt back furling mechanism in addition, it could have good utility.  I would be a little reluctant to rely on the electronics without a failsafe.  Lightning, power glitch, broken wire, worn out brush in a dc servo, ect. in addition to the other potential mechanical problems same as for a passive system would lead me to think that reliability might be less than a well designed mechanical system.  There might be some advantages to operating without a tail and to having the electronic yaw control as well, and might make the project worthwhile for someone capable of designing a reliable system.  Rich

« Last Edit: June 27, 2006, 11:09:40 AM by richhagen »
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SamoaPower

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Re: Why Not Yaw Control??
« Reply #31 on: June 27, 2006, 03:58:23 PM »
Rich,

In a reasonably well matched system of site characteristics to rotor to alternator to load to usage, I believe that total energy harvest is still the prime issue. How we utilize that harvest is obviously up to the user. Because of the intermittent nature of our resources, certain compromises have to be made and if these are well thought out, good utilization can be had. Load scheduling is one example of what I'm talking about. See:   http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/4/4/235957/8520


Using the axial flux alternator as an example, it has an efficiency inversely proportional to output. If it's designed for a low wind speed cut-in, it's efficiency will be quite good (80-90%) there, so low speed efficiency isn't much of an issue. However, at the energy peak wind speed of the graphed site example (23 mph), the efficiency will probably be down to <60% and decreasing with higher speeds. Obviously, because of this, the energy harvest will suffer, not to mention the strain on the stator. If we use the technique kindly provided by Flux and design the cut-in, for this example, for say 18 mph, the effeciency could be brought up to the 80% region at 23 mph, enhancing the harvest significantly. By using a boost converter to recover the energy, at good efficiency, for speeds below cut-in, there's little compromise in the available energy harvest at those speeds.


See:  http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/3/17/185646/194


"If the wind stays at high velocity, we will likely be dumping excess power anyway."


I see this excuse offered often as to why not to be concerned about high wind speed efficiency. It makes no sense to me. If the energy is there, USE IT. Dump load power doesn't HAVE to be wasted power. I prefer to dump it into air conditioning since that is my largest grid expense. Better reasons would be concern for stator heating and machine wear and tear.


I fail to understand the general distrust of electronics propagated on this board. It seems that if electronics is mentioned in a post, the doom sayers come out in force. Perhaps, it's because people tend to distrust what they don't understand. That shouldn't automatically make it a negative factor. I have many electronic gizmos, some of which run 24/7, that have been in operation for 25+ years without issue. Not to say there aren't failures, but I consider the risk factor to be low for well designed electronics. Over the years, I've had many more problems with mechanically moving parts than electronics.

« Last Edit: June 27, 2006, 03:58:23 PM by SamoaPower »

DanB

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Re: Why Not Yaw Control??
« Reply #32 on: June 27, 2006, 09:03:43 PM »
I expect I'm one of the 'doom sayers' you talk about so much lately ;-)  (sorry about that).


I think simplicity has a lot going for it.  In these systems you have lots of pros and cons to weigh out  - efficiency is a pro, complexity is a con in my opinion - it costs more and often means higher cost and possibly lower reliability.


For me - not being grid tied I find it fairly tedious to handle the power from higher winds and really need to be optimized for lower winds.  In high winds I have little use for the power.  Between stalling the blades a bit and furling early I don't see that stator overheating needs to be a serious problem, though my thinking may change on that some day.


But...  if you're grid tied and think about the massive energy available in the higher winds and you have a grip on the electronics to make it all work then it makes a lot of sense to do things like you're planning I think.  For me though - it would probably do very little for my system other than maybe save a bit of firewood in the winter.

« Last Edit: June 27, 2006, 09:03:43 PM by DanB »
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