Air X 400 watt

[Monzadude]

 Hi all. I did a quick search and didn't find anything on this so, sorry if it's already been discussed. I was at Canadian tire lately and noticed that they're now selling wind turbines. It's the AIR X 400 watt for $799. I have a few question about this. First is this a good product? For now I'm just trying to have some fun and save a little money. Second  is this a good price? I looked around on the net and in Canadian $ this seems to be pretty good. I know that this alone won't run much. I have some solar to go with it. I'm planning to move to the country in the next year or two so I won't be getting anything until then. It would only be to run a garage and used as a back up for the house for now. I plan to slowly increase solar and wind generation so I can start using it in the house all the time. My goal is just like everyone else, to be off the grid completely. Given enought time i sure this will happen.

Thanks

Bill

[henjulfox]

I think the price is good but...

The Air series of turbines don't have a very good reputation on this site. I have one that looks nice but dosen't put out any power to speak of.

The Air-X is an "upgrade" from the Air-403. Try searching on Air 403 to get a few opinions.

-Henry

[DanB]

I cannot say about price, Im not sure how Canadian $$ work vs US $$.  Here they sell for around $575 or so USD.  It's a very small machine and will generate very small bits of power unless you have very steady strong winds.  I believe they're somewhat noisy too.  Up here a few folks have the older model of it (the Air 403) - and from what I understand the 403 actually outproduces the 'X' slightly but makes a bit more noise.  The 403 makes considerable noise before it even starts generating.  Up here I notice that homebrew machines are usually producing electricity quietly before the 'Air 403's' are even turning.

I wouldn't buy one...  it will not likely produce much power for you.

[zubbly]

hello Monzadude!

generally i would not knock anothers efforts or in this case a manufactured unit. i recently saw the one you are speaking of at canadian tire myself. it looks "cute" and that is it.

my honest opinion, total junk. that simple. and the $799 price, rediculous. i personally would not spend $79 on it.

if you really want to spend in the area of $799, put it into a solar panel. i am sure in the long run you will get thousands of times the watts from it.

better yet, put the $799 into a set of mags and some wire and build yourself a superior unit.

good luck!

zubbly

[TomW]

Or.......

Better yet, send that $800 as a down payment / retainer to zubbly and commission him to crank you out a for real works every time mill!

Cheers.

TomW

[nothing to lose]

Yes, or buy a DC  motor and build a wind gennie from that.

Many better options than the Air series and almost everything costs less and makes more power.

I just scored a couple cheap electric golf carts

I was asking for used motors cheap and he said I could have the entire carts.

Is good in a way. But with the entire cart, drive line and all, I probably won't use the motors for a gennie now though.

36Vdc 57amp motors and these are the type that are a complete motor and uses a pully 3 belt drive to run the carts driveline. I think they are old Cushmans.

So look around and build your own better and cheaper mill. I guarantee I could build 2 major mills with these 2 motors for far less than $800 the Air-X costs.

36V X 57amp is 2052watts (each motor) but of course to get that I would have to use a chain or beltdrive probably to gear up the motor speed. I don't know the Rpm of these motors yet. I am sure at lower rpm just slapping on a set of blades the motors will most likely produce over 400watts while an Air-X sits and does nothing.

[TomW]

NTL;

I think you will find those motors are series wound and would require a stack of magnets to become generators.

At least my Harley electric is!

Cheers.

TomW

[electrondady1]

i hate to be optimistic or look on the brightside but a major retailer is selling windgenies . thats got to be a milestone of some kind. they sell charge controllers and inverters too. the whole system might be kind of lame but it's a start. the purchaser was propably in charge of fishing lures last year. i used to do design work for a company that was a supplier for can. tire  one thing you can be shure of, air x gave them a good price!

[rotornuts]

As long as people don't buy the unit become extreamely disappointed with the results and as a result become opponents of wind power based on thier bad experience.

Mike

[strider3700]

not only are they selling a wind generator  they also are carrying an 80 watt solar panel for $699 cdn.  

when I was wondering through the auto parts aisle at our local canadian tire  my girlfriend saw the air X and started talking about how we should put up a wind generator at my place.   That would be worth the $800 right there

[Shadow]

It may be good that more retailers are starting to carry more RE related products. My concern is too many people putting these high speed noise makers on their garages until too many neighbours complain, resulting in the ban of wind turbines within about a mile of anyone!They can give wind power a bad name,as some will think if a small one makes that much noise just think how noisy a big one must be!

[veewee77]

Wow! that is OVER $8 per WATT!

No where near a good rice in my book!

So they're probably twice as high as they should be on the Air X400, too. . .even if it was worth that much. . .

Doug

[veewee77]

All the while not knowing that a slower moving, higher-power larger diameter unit won't make that much noise. . .

Doug

[electrondady1]

 thats when we hit the market with our more powerfull quiet machines!

[Jerry]

Speaking of that. I've been selling the Garbogen for $450 US. Thinking of going to $500 US as parts prices have been going up.

I fly the 403 along with my Garbogen. To compair the two machines.

The 403 rearly spins while the Garbogen cuts in around 6 mph the 403 cuts in at 13 mph.

I've not seen the rated 400 watts at 28.8 on the 403, its more like 325 watt. At 28.8 mph the Garbogen it doing 650 watts.

At 30 mph the blades tips on the 403 brake the sound berior and make a load pop.

The garbogen remains very quiet.

Thats my expirience with the 403.

                    JK TAS Jerry

[DanB]

Hi Jerry -

I doubt they're breaking the sound barrier, but they do go quite fast.  I believe the 403 is rated at 1800 rpm in a 28.8mph wind or something.  Having a 4' prop, that'd have the tips travelling about 257 mph at rated output, with a tip speed ratio of about 9.... which, does explain why they are a bit noisy!

[Jerry]

Hi DanB.

You may be right? However the sound they make is a very laud crack pop.

I discribe it as the sound of a 22ga. gun shot with the energy of a cannon.

Its not just that jet sound.

                               JK TAS Jerry

[RayW]

Hi, Jerry

Can you record the sound of the Air X and post it on this site?

          RayW

[wayne]

Had a look and its true, to bad it wasn't a better one

http://www.canadiantire.ca/assortments/product_detail.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=1408474396670123&
;ASSORTMENT%3C%3East_id=1408474396670271&bmUID=1129580322395&PRODUCT%3C%3Eprd_id=84552444328
1868&assortment=primary&fromSearch=true

wayne

[Jerry]

Hi RayW.

I can't but a computer geek freind of mine might be able to?

Now all we need is some 30 MPH wind and his willingness to try this?

I think the grandure and the impact of the big bang would be lost in the translation however.

It would be like watching a movie on a 8" B&W TV. Or the bang of the 4th of July on your cell phone.

But If I can I'll give it a go.

                 JK TAS Jerry

[nothing to lose]

Ya, I got to thinking about the cart motors might be a series wound motor but I can still use them, just not good for a gennie though.

Hmmm, wonder if I could build a new armature with neos

Anyway I'll use those as motors, I need 2hp or more for a project, though I would preffer a PM motor for it.

 It's good to see a major store selling RE supplies, but it would be better if it were things that work better for a more realistic price. Stuff that does not turn people away after they buy it.

 $800 for a 400watt gennie that seldom makes 200 watts in normal winds is not a good starting point for people who don't know much about these things and likely to chase them back to the grid power.

Perhaps some of the guys here should band together and turn out mills they could sell wholesale for around $500 putting out maybe 500watts in low winds. At retail then it might sell around $800 but it would actually make power in low average winds and people would be happy with it after they bought it.

Hint Hint,

[nothing to lose]

I didn't know you were selling those.

So are they ready to fly, blades and all, just assemble and mount to a tower or are other parts needed like blades and tails etc...

 Getting kinda interesting seeing people here starting to sell gennies and kits and motor conversions etc...

[sonrev1776]

The AIR-X is a good product from a good company.  You will find many negative comments about the AIR modules on the web, mostly due to the noise problems of the AIR-303 and AIR-403.  In my opinion most other problems with the AIR-X are due to user error, and the fact that the AIR is one of the most prolific micro-turbine series ever; so of course there will be a number of discontented users.  Wind power is just not that easy regardless of what product one chooses.

The unit is not as simple as the brochure indicates for the average Joe to use (what is though?).  For one, the recommended wire sizes are completely unreasonable for a turbine with an on-board voltage regulator.  SWWP will disagree, but the AIR-X has no business on a 100 ft tower with anything less than wire the size of your arm.  I wouldn't run a 12-volt model 25 feet with anything less than #4 AWG cable, but #2 is more like it.  Like most micro-turbines it belongs on a 30-40 ft TV tower or rooftop with proper isolation for vibration.

That being said, the official reviews by Paul Gipe and the NREL are at the very least disingenuous for not simply recommending thicker gauge wire, which has a great effect on the outcome.  I find these reviews suspect, but that's an issue for another thread.

The AIR-X is very robust.  It will not destroy itself in high winds like many other micro-turbines.  It is best used in regions that are 1000 feet or less below mean sea level.  It can and does approach its rated output in ideal conditions.  Just remember the specs are best case, just like MPG ratings on a car.  I would guess most AIR users are not deploying the unit under ideal conditions, just like they don't drive their cars under ideal conditions.

I bought an AIR-X after having very positive experience with an old AIR-303, despite the negative comments I was hearing.

The AIR-X can be improved, of course.  But it's a great candidate for experimenting.  I would like to see SWWP offer options to customize the unit for various applications.

If your decision is based on a vote here or the AWEA forum, well then the AIR-X will lose.  But for the record, I happen to love mine.  At the very least I can say I got a good one.

[ghurd]

I just can't help thinking if you are happy with an AIR unit, you would be a lot happier with something else. There is a reason things lose.

"It will not destroy itself in high winds like many other micro-turbines"

It has to actually turn to do that.

Thicker wire won't make it turn.

"...like MPG ratings on a car.."

Personally, I never had a car that did not exceed that rating by at least 10%. Highway or city.

I'm in about the worst place in the US for solar power, and know a local guy with a AIR.

He says half the money would have been far better spent on more PVs.  That is a pretty serious statement around here.

G-

[sonrev1776]

"Personally, I never had a car that did not exceed that rating by at least 10%. Highway or city."

That must be a lonely club, you being the only member and all. ;-) (I jest - all in good fun).  You must not drive like people around here.

Seriously, it's not because I don't know any better that I like the AIR-X - it's quite the opposite.  You'll never hear me say something like, "If I can do it anyone can."  That's not at all what I'm implying through my comments about the AIR-X.  I have always had success with mechanical/electronic systems that befuddle others, so YMMV.

Even so, the bad rap against the AIR has a lot of urban legend to it.  Many people who have joined the chorus have never even seen one up close.  It is also a bit political, if you ask me.  You don't have to be Sherlock Holmes to sense there is something less than pure objectivity behind the "reviews."

I've critiqued them all - Gipe's, the NREL and Detronics.  Gipe and the NREL have an axe to grind.  Detornics just isn't using best practices, yet I think it is a genuine test.  In general there seems to me a lot more social science than hard science in these reviews.

As far as personal experiences of individual owners, well if someone can't get it to work, they can't get it to work -- I can't argue with that.  Nonetheless, my AIR-X works.  

Wire size has everything to do with this machine, by the way.  High impedance in the wire will cause it to brake in the same way as high RPM.  When the unit senses a charged battery it will brake.  High impedance causes a false charged reading.  As I stated previously SWWP's own wire size recommendations are unrealistic.  5% and higher loss is too much.  2% percent or less and you're on your way to having a successful AIR-X deployment.  

Probably two of the most common mistakes with the AIR-X are using too thin a wire for long runs and not waiting for the 60-100 hour break-in period for the ball bearings before passing judgment.  But there are lots of other limitations with small wind in general that people just don't grasp intuitively.

Of course I would like to have something else -- something bigger and a nice house in the country to go with it. :-)  

[coldspot]

"The AIR-X is very robust.  It will not destroy itself in high winds like many other micro-turbines"

 sonrev1776-

I have a friend that would like to have a robust 403

he has gone thru three of them,

It will destroy itself in high winds!!!

I was there for the second unit to totaly let-go,

First- These make a LOT of sound, A LOT!!!

Second- Having the "control" in the head, up the tower,

what was they thinking?, O-yea, Make it hard to copy.....

Like anybody would want to...lol

Third- Lack of low wind start-up, OK,.. OK

Flat out lack of turning in anything but hard winds!!

When the 403 let-go in very hard winds, the sound was very

troublesome but when it burnt up the control, the prop just free-wheeled

and didn't help the sound level.

Even after it was toast, it still didn't start turning

when a neighbors yard toy was spinning away.

I have and still feel bad about talking this person

into windmills, but it's his deal and NOT my fault

if he buys without researching!

PS: He is now on his third "Malard", (Auto alt modded for retail sales)

We can only wish for the wind he gets,

(I wish he would look at the disc I made for him with

TON'S of stuff from here on it!)