Why is genny braking to a stop?

[nothing to lose]

 Well here's what I got going today.

Was flying a 4 pole 1/4hp motor conversion, rotor was cut flat and 4 disk magnets on it, it was making power but not that great, but it was working fine as set up.

 I just pulled out the rotor today and put in one that is turned down and has 4 of the #29 type arcs on it.

OK, just open volts here, but with flat rotor and disk neos spining with fingers got around  30Vac on any 2 wires out of 3. With ARCS finger spinning about same speed open volts around 50-60Vac any 2 wires of 3. Arcs appeared to double open AC volts at least, alittle more cogging than the flats and a touch harder to turn.

 I would have tested on the lathe and used the rpm meter etc.. but I was on the roof and just changed out the rotor up there.

Well OK I know now I got open volts and it works, so I connect the same wires back up same way to the genny and run power into the house where I can play with batteries and DC volts.

 First off I notice the genny is not spinning when I connected the wires on the roof, and I had mild winds, it should been turning. I come into the house, remove the battery and the genny takes off like a jet, Pole is bolted to house so I can hear it running. I like it noisy that way for testing, If I can't look out and see it I can at least hear it. Jerry blades are quite it's the genny rumble I can hear.

Wow, meter shows I was getting around 100Vdc and more open volts. I connect the battery and the genny stops like slaming on the brakes at yellow light that just turned red

No I am certian I am not just stalling out blades here, it does not coast to a stop, it stops like shorting wires to shut it down! The Jerry blades work well even though I have a setup in a turbulent spot. They over come the cogging I have very easily also.

 I have taken all the wires off the bridge rectifiers, using any 2 wires and either bridge has the same effect. Really good open DC volts, brakes to a stop if connecting a battery!  I get good readings for DC open volts from each bridge so am prety sure that bad rectifier is not a problem.

The AC wires are on the AC termials, and the POS terminal is on the Bat pos and the neg on the neg. I don't see any shorts to shut it down?

I was using about a 17amp hour SLA 12V, I started to wire up a 24V set and a 48V set to see if the same thing would happen but that is when my wind stopped today.

[Flux]

Wait for the wind and try it into 48V.

If it is doing 100v you might as well short it out as connect it to a 12v battery for all the difference it will make. I bet it is stall.

Flux

[drdongle]

I agree the 12 V battery is to much of a mismatch.

[richhagen]

It seems to me that it wants to spin a lot faster, and when connected to 12V, the amps it would output at the speed it is spinning require too much torque, more than the blades deliver to it.  The system then slows down.  The rpm they would slow to at 12V is probably at a system TSR much lower than the blades are designed for.  At a higher system voltage, the operating TSR of the system would be higher and the blades would be more likely to keep chugging along.  (this is just my way of saying "what flux said", although he can probably explain it more accurately and clearly.)  Rich

[nothing to lose]

Thanks guys.

 I have wired up 48V now and have a 24V from a UPS also. Just waiting for the wind again. Although a slight mismatch of battery sizes I could actually go to around 96V just for testing.

If it works at Normal higher voltages (48V) then as expected and the problem solved I will work on setting it up in a better area on a better tower as planned tommorrow.

 If I still have the same problem I'll pull it down and test on the lathe to see what's happening a bit closer.

Thanks

[JohnC]

Imagine this, I got a Lambraginni. {spell check} I'm going down a 3 lane highway, but all of a sudden it merges into a oneway lane. U got way too much power in a such a little trough.  Sounds like something I only wish for.  Sure wish u could give us, mouth watering pics.

John E Cox

Ottawa, Canada

[zubbly]

Hi NTL!

your problem is obvious to myself. 50-60 volt with just a finger spin is very high voltage. in my opinion, you have 2 choices here. either you need a much larger prop to give you sufficient torque because your genny is cutting in at very low rpm. the other thing to do is open your winding and connect for maximum circuits. not sure if your unit is 1 or 3 phase.

just to use jerry as an example, i think many of his conversions he did, was to re-connect for more circuits. good chance you now have 1 circuit in your winding. you could then re-connect for 4 circuits. connecting as is to a 48 volt batt bank would give you much the same effect.

amazing power is quite possible from a 1/4 hp unit and just 4 of those mags. you have massive mag material in those curved mags compared to just a few small disc mags.

let us know what you find.  have fun!

zubbly

[Jerry]

Zubbly you hit it right on the head. The small disc magnets had very littel flux. There for they were produceing very littel power. It was easy for the blade to drag the small magnets through the flux feild because the flux feild was small and weak.

Here the story I tell my customers when there buying a Garbogen. The Garbogen is a single phase  1 HP, 120 volt, 10 amp, 1725 rpm motor 4 pole motor.

4 pole 4 main coils. 4 each 30 volt 10 amp coils wired in sires this equals 120 volts at 10 amps.

I reasign the coils and wire them in perelell. I end up with a motor that is now a 30 volt motor that will operate at 40 amps.

Keep this in mind a 120 volt  10 amp motor consumes 1200 watts and a 30 volt 40 amp moror consumes 1200 watts. Same wattage.

Now if we convert this motor to a PMA for charging 12 volt batteries 30 volt is much closer the 120 volts and 40 amps is much better then 10 amps. You motor was designed for much higher voltage then your trying to operate it at. It like trying to move your car in 4 gear when the light turns green. That wasn't a problem with the small disc magnets cause basicly there cluch was sliping and they never delivered full power anyway.

I've seen 1200 watts from the old #29 in a single phase 4 pole motor at 45 mph, 650 watts at 30 mph and an amp or 2 at 5 or 6 mph.

Make the wireing mods on the motor so you can now take addvantage of the powerfull flux and all the wire thats in your motor. Or operate it at 48 volts. Just keep in mind the amperage will be low at 48 volts.

My blade maches the alt quite well now you must match the alt to the load. This is one reason I prefure the garbage disposal motor its so easy to match it to the voltage. These motor satators are way more freindly then normal motors and very easy to reasign coil configuration. And after diong the same to the start windings you end up with a 2 phase alt.

I don't know why people passem buy. With 4 cheap magnets and a littel work they'll almost double the power of an SW-403 and with no noise and at a fraction of the cost and the plumer tosses them in the dumpster?

OH well?

                             JK TAS Jerry

[Slingshot]

Jerry,

Do you have a step-by-step for doing the garbogen conversion?  I've searched the archives here, and can't seem to find the whole story.

Thanks!

[Jerry]

I don't have the step by step but if you search my diary, posts and files there should be a lot of picture and stories. You may have to search on the old board.

There are seversal ways to build new end caps. I'll be out of town for a few days but when I return and you still have questions I'll do my best to answer.

The best are the 1 hp but they are very rare. Every motor below 1 hp is wound with aluminum wire not copper. The 1 hp is rated 9 to 10 amps. The 3/4 hp is rated 7.6 to 8.1 amps depending on the maker and year.

But even the 3/4 hp makes good power.

See ya next week.

                         JK TAS Jerry

[nothing to lose]

Thanks Zubbly,

 I have another motor exactly the same, I have 6 wires comming out of the cases, 3 are seperate ends, 3 are connected together so I will split those 3 and see what happens. I was actually figuring with any load the open volts would drop off fast but it don't look like it I geuss. Hopefully work on it tommorow and have some winds, today was poor winds.

[nothing to lose]

Thanks Jerry,

 If higher volts is better, I have alot of about 19V battery packs here, sub-C ni-cads about 1.3amps I think

 For running a small bike I am kinda working on very slowy I was thinking of around 80-100V perhaps, depends what motor I actaully use. Think maybe I should use this genny as is for charging that? I will parralel to get the amps up higher also.

 I will seperate the connected 3 wires on the second case (2 motors the same) and see what it does on each set. Since the mill is up right now I'll run it 48V and see how that works also before taking it down. I was going to do that today (48V), but we had very little wind at all most of the day. I did a new conversion that makes no power at all while waiting for the winds to pick up

 Nice to have the lathe working again though. Why 4 arcs make 0 volts in a 4 coil motor I am not sure. I thought it was a 4 pole, I'll double check it, maybe a 2 pole and I am cancelling myself out? Easy enough to change the mags on the rotor. So far for testing just using a plastic bottle heat shrink and the magnets own power is working well for holding mags in place, but I am testing at lower rpms like 1/2" power drills provide and nothing real high yet. I may build a real varible speed testing jig tommorow. I started on it just a little today, tons of bolts here but I can't find a few nuts for them

 Something is always hard to find!

Yes these arcs have alot more flux for sure, I can see that in a bit of cogging difference and the finger turning difference also, not just in the open volts.

Thank you for the post you made as it also gives me ideas for another motor I opened up today. The start windings are fried, but the run are fine. 4 coil 120V 3/4 horse 1725rpm I think and all the windings are copper. I was going to toss it to the side for now but maybe I can make a 30V 40amp out of it. Actaully lower amps as I think the motor was rated around 8-9amps. I looked at several today that I have. The wire in this one is kinda fat, maybe I can see what I am trying to find in this one and since starts are already fried not much worry if I ruin it I geuss, as I have other motors with smaller wires.

 Yes I like your blades very well. When we had some winds the other day the Jerry Blades seemed to start up in the least little breeze which considering the cogging in that motor kinda suprised me how easy they would start. With the other rotor that cogged less but made less volts they were doing very well running it at 12V charging batteries also. So I when I get winds again and charge the 48V bank I am sure they will do very well.

 About the testing jig. I geuss those HF router varible speed control output DC? If so I will use one for a DC brush PM motor I have here. The HF control was on sale and I got one. I'm not good with even simple schematics but the one for the controll looks to me like basically a rectifier and a pot switch?

[drdongle]

NTL sounds like you have either a 120/240 combo, or a bidirectional motor. In either case you can series or parallel the two main windings, or have a relay that switches between the two. My first conversion was like this. I plan to use the start winding to power the relays and logic circuit on board the unit.

The idea is that in low speed winds the two windings are connected in series, and when it reaches a preset point the relay switch to parallel. Sort of a poor mans "Y" and delta switch.

[nothing to lose]

Just an update.

Jerry Blades are working GREAT, Genny working good enough for now as is. I will look inside this other same motor and see what I can do inside it with the coils. Yesterday was busy I did alot, most tools worked but not the press.

Having decent winds kinda today. Not steady though. Fair winds for a few minutes and some sudden strong gusts for a minute or so at times, no wind other times.

DC 80V, 48V, 24V are working fine when I have the winds. 12V is working today in the stronger winds but still harder to get, also bad wire for 12Vdc into the house, too long and not heavy enough.

 When the winds start blowing a bit the genny starts turning. Jerry Blades have no problem with the motors cogging and start right up. While changing out batteries today I still often got around 120-148V if the wind was there, sometimes I just let it run to see for a minute, as you might expect that was pretty high rpm, the Jerry blades were nice and quite.

I seperated the external 3 wire connection on the motor, put 3 bridges onto a large long heatsink cut from an aluminum stormdoor and mounted that up at genny. Connected the 6 motor wires and parraled the outputs. I'll be rebuilding this and will make a better bridge set up, this was fast and worked well for testing.

At any volts 24V and above I can hear the genny (not the blades, just the motor) since the tower is mounted to the house. As I mentioned earlier I like it this way for testing stuff.

Hopefully I will get this motor conversion an a real tower out in the yard fairly high later this week or the weekend. It should do pretty well now to charge the UPS banks at 24V since it's doing decent today where it is.

As for 2 other things, the motor I built that did 0 volts was indeed a 2 pole which I put a 4 pole rotor, duhh on me. Not alot of power from it yet but NN SS with 4 arcs makes decent power with a 1/2" drill. NSNS made nothing. This one I think I can play with the coils in without destroying. 3/4hp 120V.

The GM alt is at a standstill right now. I tried to work on it yesterday too.

I BENT my press! First time I have used it too! Used the jack it came with!