Author Topic: First motor conversion - Possibly?  (Read 2838 times)

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gotwind2

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First motor conversion - Possibly?
« on: October 28, 2007, 04:15:24 PM »
Hi.

I found a 135 watt 3 phase induction motor in the skip (dumpster), stripped it down and want to make a small generator - Does this look possible with this motor?

Ideally without having to use a lathe or milling machine - I believe Fungus has some experience in this area - filing some flats on the rotor? I also have 13 or so 3/4" diameter x1/4" Neo magnets lying about.

Those are wall nuts in the background for scale :)

Any help appreciated as this is my first conversion, ta.










It has 24 slots





Looks like there are 6 connections and the resistance between any pairs of the top 3 connectors is 124 ohms - the bottom 3 are all connected together?





And a star or Delta wiring option on the reverse of the connection cover plate.




Ben.

« Last Edit: October 28, 2007, 04:15:24 PM by (unknown) »

Flux

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Re: First motor conversion - Possibly?
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2007, 10:38:51 AM »
Don't expect very much from it and you will not be disappointed.


It is small, high slip with high resistance and it is a compromise design that can run on single or 3 phase. With that sort of resistance you will probably need to do a lot of reconnecting to run it at 12v. For 48v with small fast prop it may be better.


I realise that a lot of people get fun out of making pretty useless things so I don't want to sound too discouraging but I really think the motor conversions are best left to those prepared to do a bit of machining. I wouldn't want to spend a couple of evenings sawing flats on that rotor to get a miserable few watts but it is your choice.


Flux

« Last Edit: October 28, 2007, 10:38:51 AM by Flux »

gotwind2

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Re: First motor conversion - Possibly?
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2007, 12:58:17 PM »
Thanks Flux, I have a lot to learn on conversions, Fungus has been very helpful amongst others on the IRC today.

Has anyone got any advice on a suitable book on the subject of induction motor conversions, I have found this one, that looks good.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Motors-as-Generators-Micro-hydro-Power/dp/1853392863


Synopsis

A guide to the use of induction motors for electricity generation in remote locations. It is written as a practical handbook for engineers and technicians involved in designing and installing small water-power schemes for isolated houses and communities. This manual arose out of practical experience of manufacturers and installers of induction generator units working in village locations in a number of countries.


Ben.

« Last Edit: October 28, 2007, 12:58:17 PM by gotwind2 »

vawtman

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Re: First motor conversion - Possibly?
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2007, 01:13:47 PM »
Hi ben

 Thats not about how to convert a motor.His stuff relates to overspeeded a completly stock motor to run has a generator.


 Have fun

« Last Edit: October 28, 2007, 01:13:47 PM by vawtman »

Flux

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Re: First motor conversion - Possibly?
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2007, 01:23:18 PM »
That is a good book but it is not what you want. It is not about conversions but using motors as self excited induction generators. That works well for fixed speed hydro but is not really any use for wind.


Probably most of the useful stuff has been covered here by Zubbly and I am sure someone can give you a link.


Even that motor would do far better than your cycle dynamos but for good low speed conversions you need to look for motors with large rotors. Machines much under 1/3 hp are hardly worth considering.


The perfect low speed alternator for wind use would be large in diameter and short. Motors tend to be high speed and long and thin. Best choice is generally higher pole number lower speed such as 6 pole. Your 4 pole is not a bad choice in that respect but it is just too small.


Flux

« Last Edit: October 28, 2007, 01:23:18 PM by Flux »

dinges

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Re: First motor conversion - Possibly?
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2007, 01:37:03 PM »
Hey Ben,


That motor is nearly exactly the same as one I converted once, except mine had originally a slightly longer house for a brake (it was intended to be used to drive the paper filter of a grinding machine). Mine was 130 W 3phase, but as far as I can tell exactly the same as yours. Same brand, same shaft/rotor, etc.


You can read the story and the results of my conversion, including battery charging curves of the finished product, here:


http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/2/14/17565/5078

http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/album49


(just ignore the discussion on the output waveform with 3rd harmonics; it's not very relevant for battery charging)


I think it would make a nice first project but, as Flux said, don't expect too much power; but if you look at my curves, if you'd use a 48 V system you could get 130 W out of the genny at 1000 RPM.


Regards,


Peter.

« Last Edit: October 28, 2007, 01:37:03 PM by dinges »
“Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing.” (W. von Braun)

gotwind2

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Re: First motor conversion - Possibly?
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2007, 02:50:10 PM »
Thanks Peter.


That info is of great help - I would love to read a book on the subject - alas I don't believe there is one written..

P.D.F's are great but not the same in my unfortunatly.


Keep up the great postings of your projects.


Ben.

« Last Edit: October 28, 2007, 02:50:10 PM by gotwind2 »

gotwind2

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Re: First motor conversion - Possibly?
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2007, 03:30:24 AM »
In the same way as Dinges did his mini conversion above.

I have 40 6mm diameter x 6 mm (1/4"x1/4") neo magnets.


If I used them I could drill the holes with just a hand drill and then grind a flat bottom to a 6 mm bit and flatten the holes.


I know performance would be very poor, but it is only a 1st attempt and would be achievable without machinery - 10 watts would be encouraging, does that sound possible with this setup?


Ben.


Magnets, very roughly positioned on the rotor - 4 pole 10 mags per pole




« Last Edit: October 29, 2007, 03:30:24 AM by gotwind2 »

Flux

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Re: First motor conversion - Possibly?
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2007, 05:15:40 AM »
Sinking the magnets into drilled holes will loose you most of the flux. Unless you can find some way to reduce the rotor diameter you will struggle.


If you only want 10W then it might be possible to use the drilled holes but you would be well advised to keep the holes a fair bit bigger than the magnets.


Flux

« Last Edit: October 29, 2007, 05:15:40 AM by Flux »

hiker

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Re: First motor conversion - Possibly?
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2007, 02:22:55 PM »
would be good as a little pedgen ..[stock motor-no mags]

just toss a cap on the output leads--worked with one of my small motors..

might be good for 100watts at 110v ac..open volts could go as high as 400??

once the rotor gets excited you can slow your pedal rate way down..

check out my pedgen files...  :}

« Last Edit: October 29, 2007, 02:22:55 PM by hiker »
WILD in ALASKA

coldspot

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Re: First motor conversion - Possibly?
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2007, 01:03:12 AM »
My $0.02

(I've built six conversions)

"filing some flats on the rotor"

Thats one HARD way of doing it.

I'd try a built up rotor, a shaft that fits the bearings or fits the end houses with new bearings.

stack together square washers, maybe tack welded and there you have your four flats to fit magnets to.

Not my idea, something I've read here, this forum is the book you seek.

The search button is your way to save time and money.

3 PH, 1800 RPM motors are the type to seek out, 1 HP+.

IMHO

:)

« Last Edit: October 30, 2007, 01:03:12 AM by coldspot »
$0.02

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

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Re: First motor conversion - Possibly?
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2007, 02:43:34 PM »
Sinking the magnets into drilled holes will loose you most of the flux.


I've been considering doing a conversion by:


 - Drilling and flat-bottoming a hole for each magnet, then,

 - Drilling out a clearance around the magnet hole, large compared to the gap, almost touching the adjacent magnet holes, and

 - Maybe grinding away the remaining honeycomb structure among the magnets in each pole area.


That way each magnet would sit in a slight recess with just enough shoulder to hold it in place, but very little shorting of the field.


Maybe also I'd just do, say, the north poles (with double-deep magnets) and let the rotor remain full-sized to form "consequent" south poles.


This would have these advantages:


 - It could all be done with a drill press (and maybe a dremmel hand grinder) though you'd need flat-faced mill-style bits for the final cuts.

 - Enough of the rotor's original structure would be intact so it wouldn't come apart into a stack of laminations.


Seems to me that, even if you grind the rotor down or replace it with a new, smaller one, drilling a shallow flat-bottomed hole for each magnet to leave a short (much less than half the magnet's depth) shoulder around it, should avoid wasting any significant fraction of its field.


What do you guys think of that approach?

« Last Edit: October 30, 2007, 02:43:34 PM by Ungrounded Lightning Rod »

tecker

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Re: First motor conversion - Possibly?
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2007, 08:37:45 PM »
You've Got bearings that's good and alot of copper all set up for 130 watts

you have to do pull power from the stator at alesser resistance  to do any good .Believe me drilling the rotor sounds good but I've got a T shirt for that one .Doesn't work . The core around the mags shunts the flux . I 'd turn it down and bond the mags  Zub syle cutting the rotor flat is is a good bet also .You basiclly have a  tap to run at 230 480 three phase either Y or Delta .So jerry all 3 break points  center tap to phase tap the shorter inner phases should ohm out around 60  ohms  your in the house at over 100 rpm 35  volts 10 amps   with out cutting into the stator ends  .  Your Y node is xyz. Ohm it to make sure but looks like u and z , v and x . y and W
« Last Edit: November 02, 2007, 08:37:45 PM by tecker »

tecker

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Re: First motor conversion - Possibly?
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2007, 05:51:01 AM »
You won't get the 10 amps at 100 rpm sorry but it will cut in around there ,and will hand spin around that if you don't have too much air gap.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2007, 05:51:01 AM by tecker »

dinges

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Re: First motor conversion - Possibly?
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2007, 02:34:25 PM »
10 A is impossible with that motor (without a rewind or MPPT):


http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/album49/130W_genny_graph_output_001


Peter.

« Last Edit: November 03, 2007, 02:34:25 PM by dinges »
“Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing.” (W. von Braun)

tecker

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Re: First motor conversion - Possibly?
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2007, 03:34:10 PM »
 I think it will .You missed your magnet spacing on that rotor  . The wave form you displayed shows the output clipped at least 10 % . Add 10 % to the the duration to that

wave form and you have even stared .I can hand spin 85 volts with a 55 ohm phase .You never hit 100 volts at 600 rpm . You should have gone over 100 volts with that conversion above 350 to 400 rpm.

 
« Last Edit: November 03, 2007, 03:34:10 PM by tecker »

dinges

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Re: First motor conversion - Possibly?
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2007, 04:15:40 PM »


http://www.anotherpower.com/gallery/album49/130W_genny_table_output?full=1


It hits 100 Vopen at 600 RPM

It goes way above 100 Vopen at 1000 RPM; in fact, to 165Vdc.


Then again - who cares about open volts anyway ? It's utterly irrelevant as long as it's above cut-in voltage.


The pole spacing is a detail; I could get a little more power out of it, no doubt, if my poles were slightly narrower (and assuming I could still put the same amount of magnet in there). I could get never near 10 A though. Notice that 10 A is twice 5 A. Twice the power.


Reactance limiting is what's limiting output with that generator and its original winding at speeds near and above 1000 RPM.


No way you will ever see more than 6 A out of that motor without a rewind.


If this measured data on a real-life conversion project that is of the same motor as the original poster has, if that isn't enough to convince people of the to-be-expected output power and behaviour of this generator, then I don't know what is.


I give up.


Peter.

« Last Edit: November 03, 2007, 04:15:40 PM by dinges »
“Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing.” (W. von Braun)

dinges

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Re: First motor conversion - Possibly?
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2007, 04:17:16 PM »
I forgot; if I wired in star you could multiply all those voltages by another 1.7 times.


But again, who cares about open, unloaded voltage...

« Last Edit: November 03, 2007, 04:17:16 PM by dinges »
“Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing.” (W. von Braun)

tecker

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Re: First motor conversion - Possibly?
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2007, 05:27:05 PM »
The conversion I'm talking about is a cieling fan conversion . I've gone in a differnt direction to do battery charging and it's working I don't get enough wind to rely on. It does 200 watts easy into a 12 or 24 volt batts but it get's a little warm the size wire that makes up the windings dictates I hold the current down to keep the smoke in . I have it down now putting some wide slow speed blades on . It's a nice small down wind package . My point is you have unrealized power from your conversion . Closer magnet placment that gives a scaler pole and good geometry with the core will alow you to max the current possible from the gage wire the makes up the windings.  
« Last Edit: November 03, 2007, 05:27:05 PM by tecker »

tecker

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Re: First motor conversion - Possibly?
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2007, 05:47:11 PM »
Here's the motor with the blade core lots of work left pvc old bonded to a section same diameter 6" .Going to add some aluminum and fiber glass . Probably too big but I wanted to start heavy for a test I know I 'll cut it down before I finish it off .




« Last Edit: November 03, 2007, 05:47:11 PM by tecker »

vawtman

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Re: First motor conversion - Possibly?
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2007, 05:56:00 PM »
Hi Tecker

 Your in the critical stages of this syndrome when you need a extention to reach the keyboard.

 Kiddin ya
« Last Edit: November 03, 2007, 05:56:00 PM by vawtman »

tecker

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Re: First motor conversion - Possibly?
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2007, 06:29:14 PM »
There's a mouse that sleeps in that keyboard drawer that's over wieght and has got a thing for enchaladas.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2007, 06:29:14 PM by tecker »

vawtman

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Re: First motor conversion - Possibly?
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2007, 06:48:22 PM »
« Last Edit: November 03, 2007, 06:48:22 PM by vawtman »