First time wind

[Basil]

Ok the 6'8 wind max blades did not work. To heavy for the 5/8 shaft and don't and I mean DON'T work in low wind. We had a storm and the wind got up to 25 mpr or more and only 1 time did the blades turn any kind of rmp. Most of the time they just set there. I'm going to try PVC blades. Anyone have an Ideal what length and width for my setup. Low wind 5 to 15 mpr most of the time. I have some ideals but i would like to hear from someone that has been they and done it.

[DanB]

that surprises me.  If they're balanced reasonably they should run a lot better than PVC blades.  Is the shaft stiff to turn by chance?  Is it possible you put the blades on backwards?  (that is a common mistake)

Not that Im a big fan of cheap fiberglass blades made in china, I have lots of them and none are very impressive in their finish/workmanship, but they do seem to be well within reason and they should blow away anything you could ever make out of PVC pipe.

[Gary D]

 Dan, if Basil has only a car lamp(s) hooked up, as his last thread implied, it could react differently (dead short)than allowing them to speed up to cut in voltage? Might want to check his last story? Perhaps a battery was added since then, not sure. Just a thought.... Gary D.

[CmeBREW]

Hello,

      That certainly doesn't sound right. Those blades even have a nice wide cord. As was just said, if you have it directly hooked to a headlight it might be very difficult to start up almost like shorting the wires together.

Like Dan said, make sure the blades are on with the straight side of the blades facing the wind.  Does the mill freespin with the wires unhooked even in lower winds?

Do you have a picture -- maybe we can see what is wrong.

[Basil]

Yes I added a battery and Diode and a amp meter.

It will not to kick in until it meets the batteries voltage. Turns free by hand. I may be wrong but I fell that the hub and blades are way to heavy for the 5/8 shaft and the motor bearings. During the same wind I took the blades off and turned them around and they did not move at all. I put them back and they turned some. They were balanced fairly good.

I may have a bearing problem with the weight. It did squeak when I turned it by hand with the hub and blades on. The mill will freespin with the wires unhooked and if I turn it by hand? The blades did turn good enough one time to make you step back and not want to be near it. But man the wind was really blowing then. I will try to add a photo as soon as I can.

[CmeBREW]

Basil,

It sure sounds like you have something hooked up incorrectly. Are you sure the POLARITY of the two wires from the DC motor/generator mill are hooked correctly to the 12volt battery?  Remember that  sometimes the color (polarity) of the wires can be REVERSED when you make a DC generator out of a DC motor--

It all depends on the direction the blades turn. Inotherwords, it is possible that the RED wire from the motor is now the NEGETIVE and the BLACK wire from the motor is now the POSITIVE.(this was true in MY case)

 Did you check the polarity with a volt meter to make sure?  Make sure you hook the true positive polarity wire to the POSITIVE terminal of the battery.

And hook the ammeter in SERIES with the TRUE NEGETIVE wire from the motor and hook the other wire of the ammeter to the DIODE (or rectifier if you wish) and then the diode to the NEGETIVE terminal of the battery.  

I can draw you a diagram if you want. It can be alittle confusing to explain.

If you hook up the polarity backwards I'm not certain what happens. It MAY allow the mill to spin up to the 12volt cut-in , and then stop like hitting a brick wall. (or; won't allow the mill to spin any faster from that point)

Can you show us a picture of how you have it hooked up?

I doubt the bearings are the problem.  What is the weight of EACH blade?  Does each blade weigh 3.3 lbs , or does ALL THREE blades together weigh 3.3 lbs?

That squeak you hear could just be the brushes.

You have a DC motor windmill VERY similar to mine. Even when I SHORT the wires together it will still turn some in a big wind gust. But I only short the wires to hold the blades back,  to keep the blades from spinning TOO FAST in a wind storm and thus making too much NOISE for my neihbors to tolerate and possibly even throwing a blade off even while it is furled back.(furl back system)

Make sure the FLAT side of the blades are pointed INTO the direction the wind is blowing from.

I could not quite understand what you meant about "free-spin". Did you 'free spin' the mill unhooked from the battery with your hand, or did you let the WIND 'free spin' the mill by itself?  The wind should start-up the blades and freespin the mill by itself easily when the wires are unhooked OR even when hooked up CORRECTLY to the battery. Because the mill Is really in a 'free spin' anyway, until it gets up to (or;spins up to)  the battery voltage.(cut-in)

Keep giving us alittle more info and possibly a picture.

When you figure out the problem the mill should take off like a jet engine.

[Basil]

Yes I know the wiring is right. I did a bench test on all the wiring. The motor or gen will not have any drag ( I'll call it that ) until the battery voltage is meet.  The gen does not try to run like a motor. I see that I had a ? at the end of---The mill will freespin with the wires unhooked and if I turn it by hand? I did not mean it to be a question. It will spin free by hand unhooked and it will spin free hooked up. ( I can't spin it fast enough by hand to make it kick in. ) I used a drill to test the wiring and ever thing the kick in, amp meter did as it should when it should. Did check the polarity with a volt meter but new that was right also.

As for the blades. I said During the same wind I took the blades off and turned them around and they did not move at all. I put them back and they turned some.

At one point I had the wires unhooked. Same thing. I have checked ever thing and it still looks like the hub and blades are to heavy for the bearings on the 5/8 shaft in the gen causing to much drag to start in low (Almost any wind) . Like I said it did get up and go one time. The hub is ¼ by 8''. The hub, blades and Arbor to me is to heavy. I don't have a way to weigh them for now. I have it in the shed going over it right now. I have a 6'' hub that I'm thinking of making some blades for that will be probable be 1/3 the weight of this one. I have to go this way until convinced  other wise.  Thanks for all the help. I'll post photos and the answer to the problem when I find it.

[TomW]

basil;

I have to say again,  odd behavior in these devices can often be tracked back to wiring faults.

Another bit is that it seems once you make an error in wiring it is extremely easy to repeat it later on while troubleshooting.

I would advise breaking the problem down into chunks. unhook everything but the wires down the tower. See if it spins up and if the noises continue. If it spins up and no funny noises then you can assume the turbine itself is OK. Then proceed to add components in one at a time until the fault returns. Then you know what parts cause the problem. Deliberate steps is the best method to debug things. Work from the turbine to the batteries, one step at a time.

Do not be fooled into thinking "new" means "good".

Bridge rectifier hookup has fooled even the experts occasionally.

Anyway, just some points.

Good luck with it.

Cheers.

TomW

[Basil]

Yes it is only 8 to 10 feet off the ground for testing.

It's not painted nor do I have the cover over the gen yet.

The wires are unhooked inside But plugged in at the mill.

I did move the blades to the back side of the hub and put

a cone on it. I balanced the blades again of course. Man

I hope some one can see the problem.

[TheCasualTraveler]

     I'm no expert on blades but those look funny. To me they look pretty flat. Give us more pictures without so much glare so we can see the twist in the blades. Maybe do a shot from the tip looking toward the hub. They almost look as if they should be mounted on an angle at the hub. Wait, they are on backwards aren't they? Is that why they look flat? More shots of 1 complete blade from the back, tip and front with no glare.

[vawtman]

Hi Bazil,

 Looking at how the motor is mounted to the pole i'm wondering how it swivels around to find direction like those creatures need.

A thought

[Basil]

The back side is rounded but kind of flat. The front faceing the wind

has a curve like a fan(Thats what I call it). I have pipe over pipe

and it turns fine with the wind. Here is 2 more photos.

[vawtman]

I think Andys right in saying their on backwards.You want the curvature facing the wind to get them started.Has the wind hits the curved blade it will start spinning.

[TheCasualTraveler]

I'm not so sure I'm right. Those blades just look funny somehow. Almost like they were carved wrong. I tried looking up Wind Max but found nothing. Basil, tell us more about where you got the blades, a website or some referance.

[CmeBREW]

It is alittle difficult to be certain from those photos, but the blades seem to have the correct (flat) side facing the wind. It looks like the blades turn clockwise-- is that correct?

In that last photo you showed, you see the 'straight' side of the blade pointing toward the wind. It should be leaning forward a bit at the tip(s) like this symbol between the quotation marks: "  /  "  < < < WIND direction < < <

Thats as if I'm standing on the LEFT side of the mill looking at the tip angle of a blade.(with the blades turning clockwise)

Of course it don't need to be leaning THAT much forward though.  But if the blade tips are simply straight up and down instead of leaning forward, they could be stalling or even air braking.(I believe)

 It is too hard to tell from those photos to see the angles of the blades on each side. They almost look flat from BOTH sides.

You had said that one time the blades DID speed up some. Did you see any AMPS showing on the ammeter?

If the blades do in fact turn clockwise, you might try putting a STEEL WASHER under each blade's UPPER mounting bolt, (toward the 'leading edge' side of blade) in order to raise the angle outward more at the tip of each blade, just to see what happens.

It sure has me baffled as to what could be wrong.

That DC motor of yours probably has about the same cogging as the DC motor I am using.  The numbers are about the same as mine. My DC motor mill is doing very good in all winds and starts up VERY easy. My blades are just PVC but are the same diameter as yours are. Those blades of yours are much wider and should be much better (all around) than PVC blades as DanB said.  Even though there is signifant cogging with such a DC motor, those diameter blades should easily start-up like mine does and take off and generate nice even in a 10mph wind.

Of course having the mill that close to the house and trees is going to hinder the winds quite a bit, but you should still get some better results than you are getting for sure.

Did you get any instructions that came with the blades, like which direction they are suppose to turn?  You should email the supplier and ask some questions.

YOu will figure it out.

Wish I could help more.      

[vawtman]

Brew"flat side facing the wind"?

[Basil]

I checked every thing twice. I made the changes I stated earlyer and The

only thing I found was that the balance was off some. Fixed that and just

waiting on the wind now. I'll keep everyboby posted.

         Thanks for the help.

[CmeBREW]

Hi Vawtman.   Hope my understanding is correct! Its the way I made my first wood blades:  Like the following. I rotated  Dan's drawing vertically and added the RED comments myself according to the way I understood it to be:

On the 'blade making page' here at this website he said:

"In the drawing above I've detailed 'sections of the blade' - one at the tip, and one at the half way point. If we build the blade like this, then the whole front surface of the blade is perfectly flat, so from these two locations you can build the whole blade - any line on the front of the blade will be a straight line, and the result will be a flat surface. I do it this way to keep things simple - and... we can make them very quickly with a planer and a jig. In the picture above you can see how the thickest part is 1/8 as thick as the blade is wide, you can see that the thickest part is located 1/3 of the way back from the leading edge."

Hope I didn't misunderstood this.

[vawtman]

Well i guess your right about that.It just doesn't look right.I guess Bazil could grab it by the tail and force it downwind to see if that helps.

Have fun with your projects

[ZooT]

Basil,

I think you're right.....The blades are way too heavy for that little motor....

I wouldn't even mess with it anymore, and in the morning I'd get a piece of 6" PVC tubing and cut a set of 20-36" long blades.....get em' mounted and flying and go from there.....

Make em' wide at the root and a couple inches wide at the tips and lay out your trailing edge straight up the length of the tube....... and the leading edge a straight line out to our tip width......you can always trim them and experiment after you see your battery getting some charge and start grinning like an idiot.....like I did :-)......nuff said?

Here's a picy of my ametek genny.....it's ugly but it works.....after all.......it's only rocket science if you want it to be......

[Basil]

What you said will be my next step if the wind max blades don't work this time. Starting with 6 in. pipe I will try 4 in. wide at the root and 2 in. wide at the tips 40 in. long. Then shorten them some as needed. Lot of ways to try. I'm going this moring to get the pipe. I have a 6 in. hub that is not being used. I can be making the pvc blades while watching the wind max. I plan to make a second mill any way. Just my luck the first one I build I have so much trouble out of. Like I said I have low wind here (At my house)most of the time. But if nothing else I can put them down at the hunting camp it's on top of a hill and no trees around. I have to charge and carry batteries and inverter every time I go down.

[Basil]

I forgot to say that the hunting camp is at my parents place. I'm there a lot.

[TheCasualTraveler]

     When I made my PVC blades I cut the pipe in 4 even quarters, then cut the taper and sanded the leading edge and tip.

     If your using 6" pipe I think you could probably cut the pipe in thirds and give it more taper and have a thicker root.

     Gotwind has  nice looking blades here,

http://gotwind.org/

[Basil]

I made blades out of 6 in. pvc. They look good but I can tell I will have to cut them down some. I cut the 6 in. pipe 3 way even. Look at this and give your opinon.A little bright but look close and I think you can see the angels.

[TheCasualTraveler]

Looks good. I don't know the optimum cut for PVC blades, or if anyone does but I don't see why that shouldn't make your motor spin. Did you balance them? Try it first without any load if the winds are moderate.

[ghurd]

ZubWoofers.  Here...

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/4/19/161431/811

G-

[coldspot]

WindMax Blades-

E-Bay, user "magnet4less"

Same as

PowerMax Blades-

E-Bay user "magnet_master", "China Magnet Source"

I have a set of 6.8 Foot or 81.5" from each seller

The windmax blades I got are a bit more "raw" and did weight less than the "CMS" set.

 WindMax- a bit over 1100 grams each

 PowerMax-  each blades was around 1300+ grams

I have tested them a little and they are clockwise and would spin up easly in little to about no wind.

 That was on my "CMI" 28Lb stepper thats about the same size as an Ametek 99

These are a two hole mounting system and it matches the CMS 102" set for the two holes but the larger set has an extra third hole also. And the holes are closer to the end on the larger set.

[Basil]

I want to give a specail thanks to all of you for your help. Danb I ran across your web site some time back and you are the reason I made and making the steam motors. Like you said you have lots of wood around. I am also blessed with it. If it came to it wood would be there when all man made fuels are gone. Ok water and air will be there also.

               Thanks to all.

[Basil]

The blades are turning clockwise if in front looking at it.

I did not get in the house to see if it was making amps

[ZooT]

I'd put them up the pole and see what they do......

[Basil]

Balance  was the problem. A light wind or fare breeze it starts turning now. The wiring was ok. Every one made sure I checked it several times. Thanks Tom. Still on the test stand I did see 2 ½ amps one time. The wind was blowing hard. The thing was going. Sounded like a helicopter . Made me stay back. It looked as if it could not go any faster. That's what bothers me. That fast and only 2 ½ amps. I don't get that kind of wind often. Have battery, diode and meter. Battery is at 12.5. Kind of bad but using it to test with. I know I'm not in the best spot for wind but that is not much power for that wind. As I said in a earlier post. At 305 rmp it lights up a car head light very good.

Just quick thinking a 55 watt 12 volt light is what around 3 amps or more. So 2 ½ amps was right at 300 rmp due to lose age . Amp meter my be off but I don't think so. It came out of a battery charger. I have a new 0-10 amp I'm going to use. It took that kind of wind to give me that. Note: I am going to get a (wind meter). The wind my not be as strong as I think. I have just got to know.

I have tried to find a chart that tells RMP per blade size WITH wind speed. May not be no animal like that around. To many variables probably . I know it will do better when it's up higher but it is not going up until I'm satisfied.

[TheCasualTraveler]

This is good reading and a chart for wind/ prop/ wattage

http://otherpower.com/bottom_line.shtml

[Basil]

Thanks