Author Topic: More wind,dead battery. (Read 7370 times)

Flux · « **Reply #33 on:** October 26, 2008, 01:41:53 AM »

You seem to have everything done correctly. If you have over 12v open circuit and it is being clamped to 12v when connected to the battery the diode is working.

Using half a bridge rectifier is perfectly ok, you just have 2 diodes in parallel.

When you get a chance, short out the rectifier and check that the blades motor from the battery. If it does not then there is some sort of high resistance limiting the current, It will not affect voltage measurements.

If it motors when the diode is shorted then the only likely explanation is that the blades are not driving it fast enough. There is no real way of sorting what is going on without measuring current, if it is producing a few mA then it will take for eternity before you see the battery rise.

The motor may not be the best possible choice especially with pvc blades but it certainly ought to work if you get enough wind. From the pictures of your site you seem to be surrounded by trees, it will be turbulent and the wind speed may be well down on the forecast figures but even so I still think you should get some reasonable output on windy days.

Choose a day when it is turning over at a modest speed ( not going crazy) and short the leads from the motor before the rectifier. It should stop the blades almost instantly, if not then again it is back to resistance somewhere but the motoring test should prove the same thing.

Flux

JimmyZ · « **Reply #34 on:** October 26, 2008, 08:29:34 AM »

Norm and Flux,

Thank you again for the info.I was thinking of the Ametek also.Seems many here are using those types of generators.And there is a dump load controller connected to a battery with a load connected which was purchased by Ghurd from this forum."Short out the rectifier and check that the blades motor from the battery".That I have not tried yet.I had also thought about the trees blocking the wind from being consistent.Also regret having the satellite dish so close by.I have shorted out the leads the first time it was spinning mildly in the wind,it did slow it to a stop.Just a reminder,have any of you seen the plans for the Chispito wind turbine from Vela creations?I made mine just about the same way and the generator is exact.Except for the blades,mine are a bit more narrow.I used 6 inch PVC instead of 8 inch.I did this for a test due to the fact it was going to be unattended figuring it may be safer.I was kind of glad I did after the huge windstorm came through the area a few weeks later.Some areas experienced up to 70mph gusts.Ironically,Vela creations claims to have tested the design in 70mph winds.My plans were to test another set of blades and possibly raise it higher with nice strong steel pipe.But first wanted to make it simple as possible for testing.I will have to really figure out what changes I can make before I get to the location on thanks giving.Like I have mentioned,It is difficult to get down there when I need to.Going to be getting cold and snowing soon.Should be fun.Looks like a nice day today.I will have someone check it out today and test the battery.Unfortunately,no one has tested it while the wind was blowing constantly.Only for a few seconds was that done.Did not want them near the mill just in case something went wrong.I will see what I can do to get the battery voltages on a multimeter and amp meter during a steady wind.

jim

deloiter · « **Reply #35 on:** October 26, 2008, 10:23:46 AM »

Jim,

Your setup sounds a bit like the Chispito. I have built several of them, each with differing 4 foot props. They all put out very well and I would see an amp or two in just about any wind. One has flown for over a year with no problems. If I could still find those 260 volt motors, I'd be building more. The best I observed was 6 amps at 15 volts. I have also used a 38 volt Amatek and the 260 volt does every bit as good as that particular Amatek. When I carved wood blades, the output went up markedly. I used a bridge rectifier as well but mine was a 35 amp. Within their limitations, these are useable machines.

I read the website because I have no life. Near the beginning you said, "The mill is connected directly to the battery terminals." If that is true, you are motoring and draining the battery via the motor. Later, you mentioned a diode so I am a bit confused. Also, what is the dump load and what type of circuitry controls it?

The culprits are limited:

Dump load that dumps at too low a voltage

Motoring (would be obvious and noticed so that doesn't seem likely)

Bad battery (it will be bad soon if you keep draining it to 12 volts)

Less wind than you think - this is what I'm betting on. Assuming the drain is continuous, you would need to average well over two amps all of the time to keep up with the 1.5 amp drain.

I've been doing this a long time and I am still an amateur compared to Flux and the other seniors on this and other boards. I ask questions alot, and I have always had great, to the point responses. These folks pass on their wisdom for free. Don't expect them to persue your website to obtain information. If it's too much trouble for you to post the relavant contents, it's too much to expect them to go after your data. When asking for advise, you would do better to have all of the information included in your post.

I don't know if that helps or hurts but keep at it.

JimmyZ · « **Reply #36 on:** October 26, 2008, 10:43:55 AM »

deloiter,

I take every reply as advice.Yes,I did not clearly note the details as I should have regarding my website.Assuming is bad.And I assumed folks would have noted that it was the Chispito design and already had those questions out of the way.Sometimes I am over efficient thinking everyone is lightning fast on the internet.I am a search freak,find myself boiling down info in short time.I need to start things off in detail even tho it is repetitive and not assume others are on the same page.That was my fatal mistake.To answer the blocking diode question,yes,it was installed from day one here at the house.As for the dump load controller,this will be copy paste.I have it set to dump from the full charge point of the battery.I will avoid sending the link this time.The blocking rectifier diode is 35 Amp 200 Volt

Metal case, Fast-On terminals

Dump Controller - How It Works

The ZM33064 (ZM) is a tiny voltage controlled switch.

The Zener diode (ZD1) and potentiometer (pot) is an adjustable voltage divider. This feeds a portion of the battery voltage to the ZM.

If the voltage to the ZM is higher than approximately 4.6V the switch is open, current through the resistor RX makes a voltage of 5.1V at the gate of the 2N7000 (N-fet) turning it on. The N-fet pulls the BSS92 (P-fet) gate to ground, turning it on. The P-fet sends power to the LED and the power N-fet gate, turning them on. The IRFZ44N power N-fet turns on the dump load.

If the voltage to the ZM is below 4.6V, the ZM is closed, grounding the gate of the N-fet. The N-fet is off and the rest of the circuit is off.

*

The capacitor (C1) provides a very short minimum time delay between switching cycles to prevent the circuit from running too fast.

*

The adjustment of the pot determines at what battery voltage the circuit will turn on.

*

Resistor RX determines the hysteresis (the difference between the voltages/when the circuit turns on and off).

*

The diode 1N4007 (D1) protects the circuit from reverse voltage.

*

LED1 simply indicates the circuit is connected to the battery.

*

LED2 indicates the dump load is on.

*

Resistors R1 and R2 limit the current through the LEDs.

*

R4 limits current through the P-fet to the gate of the power N-fet.

*

R5 pulls the power N-fet gate to ground when the circuit is off.

Hope this helps.

Jim

JimmyZ · « **Reply #37 on:** October 26, 2008, 10:50:51 AM »

One quick note,the mill was built here in my kitchen.After assembly,I connected a small 12 volt 5 AH battery to it.It did not motor,this tells me the blocking diode was doing the job.Then,spun the mill without breaking stuff to read volts.I forgot the actual readings,but they made me happy.The same battery I tested it as a motor before the blocking diode was used.Which did slowly turn it.The battery was somewhat weak.Did I miss anything?

Flux · « **Reply #38 on:** October 26, 2008, 01:16:56 PM »

I think you have covered most things except for a real current reading in a decent wind.

I am inclined to think that you have a combination of problems. The load is seriously high for a 4ft machine unless it is on a real good wind site. Occasional bursts of decent wind should extend the operating time but they would need to be for days to make up for long periods of no charge.

If you are capable of doing it I think the best thing to make a decent improvement would to be to make a set of decent wooden blades with tsr about 6. Those pipe things probably are down nearer tsr 4 and they don't like high winds anyway. They work best in low winds with a very slow generator. You need about 400rpm to produce anything and that you are likely doing, but the charge rate will be low. To get a decent charge rate you most likely need nearer 800rpm and that is most likely where your blades flutter and become very inefficient. This combined with turbulence on your site is probably restricting the useful production time you get in the windy periods.

On a good site but in a poor wind area ( average 8mph) I managed to get an average power of 30W from a 6ft machine. You will need everything about right to average 18W on a poor site with 4ft blades.

A decent set of wooden blades should manage 1200 rpm fairly easily at 4ft.

Flux

JimmyZ · « **Reply #39 on:** October 26, 2008, 01:24:54 PM »

Flux,

Fortunately,my step father has a well equipped wood shop a half mile from my camper.Having blades made would be the easiest thing done to this mill to date.He is a very talented wood worker.Sounds like the next step.Who knows,maybe just build something a bit larger and enjoy more than running a radio.But small steps first.Thanks for the input.I think we wore this topic out until some actual changes are made.Thank you again for your help and sorry for the bad start.

Jim

JimmyZ · « **Reply #40 on:** October 26, 2008, 04:31:27 PM »

Now I have some info.Since my mom lives near my setup,she usually takes her walk there and checks on things to the best of her ability.Since friday,the radio transmitter has been turned off.The battery was reading @ 12 volts at that time.The radio does not draw that much,so it was still operating,but obviously sounding to me a bit shaky.She informed me that it was windy and very consistent all weekend right up to when she went up to check.She said she connected the meter to the battery and waited while as she described,"Heard the mill whirring" and proceeded to measure the battery.The meter was reading 11 volts and no fluctuation at all.She has a meter that only reads 2 digits,which stinks.Could have been .01 volt less than 12 for all I know.The worse news is,she twisted her ankle on her trip home and had to visit the hospital.She is fine,lots of swelling.I feel bad about it.Thank god a friend was driving by where it happened and took her home.This is surely my last post until I get out there and make some changes.Thank you all for the patience and info.I will be sure to post them here to complete this saga.Everyone have a safe week and good holidays.

JimmyZ - NY

Norm · « **Reply #41 on:** October 26, 2008, 06:22:54 PM »

Maybe I don't quite understand but if the battery

is only reading 11 volts that battery is in bad shape...

.you really should have something to shut

it down if it drops below 12.5 volts...I would.

When it is charging it should be reading

something like at least 13 volts?

right in the very corner of NE Ohio

Tritium · « **Reply #42 on:** October 26, 2008, 07:12:10 PM »

Another Ghurd Controller could be set up as a low voltage drop out for the radio gear.

Thurmond

boB · « **Reply #43 on:** October 26, 2008, 07:44:44 PM »

"SILLY" in this context actually means something like "I've done something dumb" but

simple, like forgetting to connect a wire (that's an example...)

I don't see the words "crazy scheme" appearing anywhere but in your post. I do see "spinning like crazy" in places though.

BTW, I know what aliasing is when seen in videos or film when things look like they're

turning backwards. The typical example of that is in old western movies where you see

the wagon wheels look like they're spinning backwards.

boB

ghurd · « **Reply #44 on:** October 27, 2008, 12:58:40 AM »

I am late to the party.

It sounds to me like the windmill is charging as it should.

It sounds like the load is too much. And the battery may be ruined from the first go around.

The wind speed for 16V open would make about 200ma, if what I think is correct is correct.

Double that wind speed would be about 3.3A. And that is only about double the drain current. The load is increased, so the blades are running at a lower TSR, so the frontal force from the wind is greater (my basic understanding) and the blades will be bending back. If the blades bend back enough, the tips go negative and the RPM sort of self-limits the RPMs. If the blades self-limit the RPMs, the RPMs and current will not go up as expected. My PVC blades seem to self limit RPMs somewhat, even before the blades flex back.

Same idea? The wife's 4-popper Camry runs 2200RPM at ~70MPH (113KPH). Tach shows red line at 6300RPM. That doesn't mean it goes 200MPH (355KPH). Speedometer only goes to 140MPH (225KPH) as a hint.

Catch-22. If the battery is TOO low the blades will stall, the RPM and current are low, the battery goes dead in hurricane Ike.

An extra low battery takes a LOT more AH in than it put out to get back up to snuff (just a personal observation not related to a calculator).

The 110AH battery with a 1.3A load is flat at 84 hours (3.5 days). The extra 10 days fried the battery is my bet.

Even if the flat 12.0V battery was unloaded and the charge was 3.3A, it would take a day and a half to get the battery back up, if the battery was not loaded with the radio stuff. With the load would take over 2 days.

The error in thinking may be the "2 weeks (336 hours) with a full 110AH battery"?

The current draw for the time-frame would be less than 1/3A, or about 4W average. The battery was most probably being ruined during that time, and any numbers from after that time are way off normal, IMHO.

A standing 12V battery should not be able to read under about 10.7V unless it has a "dead cell". Hillbilly Windage applies.

It was a $10 motor. The info you started with was bogus or misleading or misunderstood.

The major malfunction I see in this entire mess is SOMEONE read what I posted,

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/1/25/144635/825

bought about 4000 motors Surplus Center couldn't sell for many years at $10, (yea, I keep old catalogs),

but using Norm's and other people's output info,

Zubbly's and Woof's PVC blade info,

and he gets to make over $100K profit in a short time.

Yet he STILL manages to ask people to "Donate" to his commercial website.

I can almost see it now,

"Sam Walton passed today.

Donations to help his family pay his final expenses can be sent in the form of a check of money order to your local Wal-Mart. It is expensive and they appreciate your support. Thank you, and buy more stuff from us.

In return for a donation you get google hit links.

And about every year, or year and a half, I'll chime in with something useless to maintain my book sales."

But it could simply be my take on it.

G-

JimmyZ · « **Reply #45 on:** October 27, 2008, 08:31:15 PM »

Ghurd,

So the battery is toast.I bought the battery brand new.They go bad after one time of major discharge?I was under the impression they were designed for that sort of cycling.I have the wrong type of battery for this project?Or is the bottom line,the mill is not designed for what I need it for unless it is windy every day @ 500 rpm.I probably do have a mental blockage of this whole thing.The first time,it ran the radio until it died in about 2 weeks.Unfortunately,I did not get there as fast as I wanted to recharge and test things.Then hurricane Ike brought major winds,and like you said,it was too low to help the battery at that point.When I had the chance,I recharged the battery.Right after tested it at 14 volts,expecting it would drop slightly as it sat a bit.By the time I returned it to the site and connected everything up,it was reading around 13.5 (approx) volts.Fired up the radio and left it.The dump load actually came on when it was connected,guessing the voltage I bought the battery at was slightly lower than what I had charged it to.So,that was reset again to the 13.5V.We had no winds the 3 days we were there.The battery was connected the 3rd day and I returned to Rochester which is 65 miles away.I forgot to mention,that is when I rewired the blocking diode according to the photo you and I had talked about in another post.You agreed it was proper.So,with that,I felt to give it another try on its own again.Well,another 2 weeks and the battery died.Ironic?When I say the battery died,I mean that the radio begins to function abnormally.This time,I had someone shut it off.It read 12 volts when it was off.I was wondering also why it would still drop to 11v with no load.Yes,maybe a bad cell now?So,because I have no choice,why not let it sit there and see if it charges with no load on the battery with only the mill coneected?Will have to,cant get there for another month.Maybe I am expecting too much from this little mill,but was hoping in 3 days of about 30mph or more winds something will happen?It reads 11 volts.I NEED SOLAR PANELS.Need a new battery also?Next time there,I will take many measurements with an electric drill again,with an amp meter.With and without the battery attached.Remember,this is my first time doing this stuff,thanks for the patience.I know I have repeated myself,but sometimes it helps me get the facts sorted.

Jim

wooferhound · « **Reply #46 on:** October 27, 2008, 09:22:02 PM »

Look at the top 4 FAQs on this page and you will be an expert on batteries

http://www.fieldlines.com/faq/re_faq

Flux · « **Reply #47 on:** October 28, 2008, 01:37:08 AM »

Most lead acid batteries only have 100 or so discharge cycles to about 90%.Taking it down to 6v you will only have perhaps 10 cycles if you don't let it stand flat for more than a few days. If you leave at 6v for more than a week you will have sulphated it to the point where you probably never get a full recovery.

I don't think you have killed your battery but you will have used a significant part of its life cycle.

You have also given a very valuable piece of information in that last comment, this was the sort of information I was looking for at the start. You imply that you set the dump control to 13.5v. This is lower than normal float it would be adequate if the machine could supply the load most of the time but you would need to equalise every couple of weeks.

At 13.5v you will not recharge a low battery at any reasonable rate and at best you would only charge it to about 70% full charge. I am not sure what voltage your radio gear can tolerate, you may have a problem if it will not stand 14.4v. That is the voltage I would choose for a compromise float/rapid charge application where the input power is likely way below demand. I would also set the LVD to 12v for a light load like 1.5A. You would probably be working at 50 to 60% discharge at that point.

Occasionally you would need to equalise the battery to about 15v and you may have even more trouble if the radio gear can't tolerate that. If designed for automotive use it may not be happy much over 14v ( you need to check).

For a battery that is very low you need to charge it to a terminal voltage of about 15v and hold it for an hour or so until gassing well. It will drop rapidly off charge to something under 13v as the surface charge disperses. On load with no charge it will always be below about 12.6v.

Flux

JimmyZ1964 · « **Reply #48 on:** October 28, 2008, 07:05:01 AM »

I am going to study everything mentioned from everyone.Thanks again for all the help.One thing I will say however.Testing the battery when I bought it would have been smart.For all I know,it was bad to begin with.That was certainly a foolish error on my part.Looking forward to visiting this mill again.For now,it will have to sit there a few more weeks spinning away.Who knows what I will find upon returning to it.Should be interesting.Regardless,I give that thing credit for those high winds it was put through.Tough little machine.

Jim

CmeBREW · « **Reply #49 on:** October 28, 2008, 08:49:16 AM »

Hopefully you can get a replacement for that new battery if still under warranty. They usually have one year total replacement and second year pro rated.

One more thing- I wouldn't hook a new second battery to that 'mostly ruined' battery or the 'bad (low AH) battery will ruin the second new battery in no time. The bad battery will pull down the new battery to it's low AH level and the lead plates on the new battery will sulfate and equalize with the bad battery's low amphour capacity. -Im sure you will get to the bottom of it.

JimmyZ1964 · « **Reply #50 on:** October 28, 2008, 05:42:58 PM »

Thank you.I still have the receipt and was thinking about that myself.It had to be bad from the start if I charged it more than it came new?I was in a hurry with this whole thing,now time to slow down and check it all out.I would like to add that whatever happened was all in fun.I knew that going into this project.Live and learn.

Jim

JimmyZ1964 · « **Reply #51 on:** October 28, 2008, 11:50:51 PM »

You guys are gonna kill me,but just for the record.Why do these guys hook the blocking diode this way?If it is already covered here,I am sorry.

http://www.velacreations.com/makechispito.html

Jim

CmeBREW · « **Reply #52 on:** October 29, 2008, 08:35:07 AM »

That is the way I had mine hooked up and it does work. However, I can see now that Ghurd's way is much better since it uses TWO of the four diodes in PARALLEL which DOUBLES amp capacity (less likelyhood of burnout and free-spin).

The other way is two diodes in SERIES (one on the positive side and one on the negetive side) which looks like it increases the voltage drop which takes away a little power.

If it is a standard 35 amp rectifier like I used , then you would only get 1/4th that in amp capacity (since amps stays the same in series) which can cause it to burn out in a giant wind gust. (even though mine did not- I would certainly do it Ghurd's parallel way now!)

So Ghurd's way is safer.

JimmyZ1964 · « **Reply #53 on:** October 29, 2008, 06:12:36 PM »

Cool,I am using ghurds method now.Just thought I toss that one in since tons of info was already here,I can come to one spot if I need reference now

Jim

JimmyZ · « **Reply #54 on:** November 01, 2008, 03:48:29 PM »

FYI,

The battery was tested after 1 week with no load using the power at all,except the green LED on the dump controller.It reads 11 volts.I cant wait to get there and test things thoroughly.

Jim

JimmyZ · « **Reply #55 on:** November 30, 2008, 08:51:14 PM »

Same as above,only a different date.11-26-08 with just over 11 volts.Nothing but a mill to a battery.

Jim

ghurd · « **Reply #56 on:** November 30, 2008, 09:47:13 PM »

Sounds to me like the battery has a dead cell. Just a guess.

They often sit around 10.5 ~ 11V if there is no charge going in.

G-

JimmyZ1964 · « **Reply #57 on:** January 02, 2009, 01:12:26 PM »

Ghurd,

The battery is home with the turbine.It was tested on a 1750 rpm electric motor and slowly charges the battery.You were 100% correct,it needs to be raised to about 50 feet to get a more steady rotation.Battery went from 6.45 volts to about 8 volts in 10 minutes.The battery is fine,I charged it fully and it is holding at 12.85 for 3 days without charger.Thanks for the input.

Jim

News:

Author Topic: More wind,dead battery. (Read 7370 times)