Help with motor for wind turbine

[jcwiggens]

hi

i purchased a KOLLMORGEN BRUSHLESS PM SERVO MOTOR model BH822-C-4.

Brushless Motor Series

(with frameless resolver)

BH = 480 VAC, Low-inertia series

MH = 480 VAC, Medium-inertia series

Motor Frame Size

12, 22, 42, 62, 82

Rotor Stack Length

2. , 4, 6, 8 - BH Series
   
3. , 5, 7 - MH Series
   
   

S - Non-UL recognized models only

Winding Type

A, B, C, etc.

Connector Type

Frame sizes 12x, 22x, 42x

6. = Interconnectron connectors, less mating plugs
   
7. = Interconnectron connectors, with mating plugs
   
   

Frame sizes 62x, 82x

4. = Terminal box (power), Interconnectron connector (feedback), less mating plug
   
5. = Terminal box (power), Interconnectron connector (feedback), with mating plug
   
   

Notes:

u Omit when no standard option additions are used

v Omit if not special

w Requires shaft seal. Models 62x and 82x are IP67 except for PG21 & 36 fittings.

BH - 22 4 x - G Ordering Information: - 6 1 - B2E1S - xxx

Sequential Specials

BH & MH Series Brushless Servomotors

Standard Option Additions

B2 = 90 VDC Fail-safe brake

B3 = 24 VDC Fail-safe brake

E1 = Encoder mounting provisions

S = IP67 rating w

Mounting/Shaft Seal Options

1 = Std metric mount, rear shaft

extension, with shaft seal

3 = Std metric mount, rear shaft

extension, w/o shaft seal

Rev. A - 8/14/03

u v

I thought it was a 480vdc which is what the auction stated but the code stated its 480vac. can this be used a a motor for a wind turbine. any help would be greatly appreciated. im just getting started so im sorry if this is a stupid question, but im trying to go green on a limited budget.

[ghurd]

Spin it and see if it makes any voltage.

PM usually means it makes power.

Mine was a pancake-style.  4 brushes.  Big magnets!

It worked but required a lot of RPMs.

The coils are on a thin circuit board, kind of looks like a saw blade in the photo.

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/2050/KoMotor.jpg

G-

[jcwiggens]

hi

thnaks for such a quick reply i didnt get it yet but its rated at 480 volts with a maximum rpm of 1600. would it help if i posted pictures?

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/12815/mn115__1_.JPG

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/12815/mn115__2_.JPG

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/12815/mn115__9_.JPG

BH-Series (low inertia)

The BH-Series provides extremely low inertia rotors

allowing optimum performance in applications requiring

rapid acceleration and deceleration. The IPM magnetic

design provides for very high torque density and

torque/inertia ratios.

[spinningmagnets]

I have also been interested in adapting a Permanent Magnet Motor (PMM) into a generator.

You need some type of tachometer. I have heard of optical tachs where you paint half the shaft black and the other half white, or paint half dull black and put a reflective chrome-looking tape on the other half. An LED or sunlight reflects light and dark onto an optical sensor, which translates that into an RPM reading.

Cleap way I've heard of is using glue and tape to attach a small magnet to the shaft, and then hold up a cheap bicycle tach to the magnet as the shaft is spinnning.

Spin the PMM at 200-300 RPM's (most common for wind-gens, I'm told) and record what volts you get.

I haven't done this myself, but Google search the board for Permanent Magnet Motor, best of luck!

[ghurd]

Pictures are always good.

Sorry.  Totally different animal.

Looks like standard AC servo motor windmill information would help you.

Lots of conflicting information from different experiences.  I hope your luck is with the majority, instead of with mine!

Looks like it is wires Star (AKA: 'Y').

The 12V cut in RPM is very horribly low, like 41 RPMs (the opposite problem of most people with a pot luck motor).

I myself would not open it to change it over to 'Jerry Rig' (due to my bad luck), but it would make the most sense to try it.  Do Not leave the rotor out of the stator, and try not to remove it at all if humanly possible.

Even if you can get it re-connected for Jerry Rig without damage, the rule-of-thumb 12V cut in is about 68 RPMs.

It will need some serious testing.

Looks better suited to the guys tinkering with slow VAWTs.

My seat of the pants totally-101%-WAG guess is something like 6 PVC blades made of thick-wall 6" PVC with wider than normal tips and about a 4' diameter.  That's where I would start tinkering.  That is Not a good answer, but it may be the only guess anyone puts forward.

It will need some slow, fat, high torque, powerful blades.

G-

[Rover]

For a different project I ordered one off of EBAY for about 30$ + 9$ , probably not that good.. but never know. 2.5 rpm to  some ungodly number. Comes with reflective tape, reads 1 per/sec , stores highest / lowest value. The only thing I've heard negative about them is you have to hold em steady or fixed.

If you do a search for digital tachometer or only tachometer, you'll find em.. if you get it shipped from China you can get em under 10$.

probably be a piece of dung, but if reads within 50 rpm between 100 and a 1000 rpm.. will do for me.

[jcwiggens]

hi

thanks for the detailed response. i don't really understand most of it though. can it be used to produce power without having to modify it? i don't mind not having a traditional bladed windmill project. i realized that it would produce 12v at 40 rpm. i felt that i may not be able to place it very high due to neighborhood concerns and wind would be less closer to the ground. also if it would rotate slower there would be less possible chances of objections due to sound or vibration.. my main question is though is weather i can use it to produce power. also from what i read it have special magnets to reduce the coging effect and is high efficiency. so will it be efficient. it say its rated at

here is a link to to motors pdf. The motors starts on page 12. page 25 is the page for this motor specific. this is the part that confuses me. "400/480 VAC, 565/680 VDC bus rated". please remember that i am pretty new to all this. i wish to thank all of you. this is a great place and all you people have been helpful.

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/12815/Servostar600_with_GoldLine_BHMH_TB.pdf

[ghurd]

It will make power.

It will most probably "stall".  

Meaning it will be best suited to "a traditional bladed windmill project".

G-

[jcwiggens]

hi

thanks G sooooo much. what do you mean it will stall? do you mean if its to low to the ground? could you be more specific about Stall. do you think its a good motor in your opinion? thanks again cant believe i got so many reply's so quickly....

[CmeBREW]

I have a few questions.  Does the shaft turn easy by hand? (this would indicated NO electric brake- which is good)

And looking on the picture of the label, does it say 34.5 RMS Amps at the top line?

It is hard to see.  If that is 34 Amps, the motor probably weighs 70-90 lbs-- is that about right.

It is a nice new servo.  I would not take it apart either, it is laser aligned and tricky. Easy to ruin. May want to re-sell it and make something lighter, smaller, less noticable, ect.

If the 12v cut-in is only around 40rpm, then it may only be usable as a 48v alternator (cut-in around 160rpm) for a 48v batt system. (4  12v batts in series--hooked to a 48v power inverter)

As a 12v genny It will probably stall as others said. It looks like a strong motor esp. if the rating is 34.5 amps.  

I like Ghurds idea.    But I was thinking even more torque like 6 blades and a 6 foot diameter to maybe (or maybe not) get past stall or even into partial stall.

(Basically: Prop can't turn fast enough speed because generator is TOO strong for the small size prop ---so gets stuck in a lower rpm soon after battery  cut-in and don't produce enough power in any wind)

It is not the ideal way of doing things though.  

If that motor IS rated at 34.5 Amps and the shaft was big enough (1.25" or more diam.) to support a bigger diameter prop, perhaps a 3 blade 8 foot diameter (48v system) would be more powerful to match the strong alternator.

-Good luck.

[jcwiggens]

hi brew

the plate reads Stall cont 8.1 rms amps, Stall Peak 31.8 rms amps, volts 480 rated rms L/L, max speed 1600 rpm, class 155 degree Cecilius,  freq 91. from the diagram it looks like the shaft is 1.2600 inches in diameter and 1.535 in length. the ad said it weighed about 80 pounds so it looks like your right on there. i talked to my neighbors and they both had no problems thank god so i don't have to worry about size. i am looking to build a powerful unit and not a small on. this seemed like a powerful motor, as i believe it was rated a either 6.8 hp or 8.6 hp for hp and 4.7 kw. aren't 48v systems better then 12v systems. i didn't think it would be 12v but either 24 or 48. as much as i can get off the grid the better so i wanted a unit with some umpffff. given the numbers i guessed that i could possible get about 2000 watts out of it since i thought it was rated at 4700 watts, is that anywhere close?

here are some features for the motors pfd

FEATURES: BH or MH Series

• Compact (high torque/volume ratio)
  
• Speeds to 7500 RPM standard
  
• IPM (Interior Permanent Magnet) design for low cogging
  
• CE Compliant, UL recognition
  
• Rugged resolver feedback
  
• Built-in thermostat
  
• Rear shaft extension for mounting additional feedback
  
  

devices

• Class H insulation system
  
• Rotatable CE connectors standard on 12x, 22x, 42x
  
• Terminal Box standard on 62x and 82x frames
  
  

thanks for your input, and i look forward to any reply's.....Happy Easter all

[CmeBREW]

These are just some suggestions.  You will have to keep studiing yourself because there is A Lot involved.

I have a big AC servo similar to yours, but it is not quite as strong. (24A I think)

Yours is 34 amps quite a bit stronger.  I was able to bike pedal 500 watts briefly (10 insane seconds) from mine, so yours is capable of making some good power into a 48v batt system I'm sure. (of course, an 8' prop in a good wind is MUCH stronger than my legs)

So  I suspect that alternator would work decent with an 8 ft prop (just 3 blades) and 48v system. Yes, 48v is somewhat better for less line loss and a more 'serious' RE-house system even though it costs more.  

But I hope you are a very mechanically inclined fellow, because raising and keeping 80-100 lbs (including hub,blades, and framing) in the air takes some serious know-how.  That is quite heavy.  

Might try those 8.5ft Windmax fiberglass blades if you can't make your own wood blades yet.  Well made wood blades would be lighter and better though. You can make your own hub with a 1.25" steel bore hub at 'Tractor supply Co./TSC' and have it welded good to a 1/4" thick plate steel disc and bolt it good to the shaft (two places) and bolt the blades to the steel disc. (I epoxy the bolts into the shaft and treaded holes)

Your 2000 watt expectation sounds somewhat too high.  If you had the mill totally isolated at a distant farm or something and let it go in big wind with no furling it might just do the 2000 watts. (48v system) But it would be very scary and make a horrible sound.

But that is really not wise.  It is much better to have good CONTROL for when the really big winds do come around and for the sake of one's neihbors and safety.  So one must sacrifice half this 'boasting' power in order to have a well controlled, safe, quiet, and dependable mill.

If it were me, I would probably try to keep it under 500 watts max.

I do not know What kind of strong pole, guys, and furling mechanism (if any) for that big motor you will have to have if you choose to make a mill out of it.

If may run partially stalled with an 8' prop which I would rather have that anyway to keep it quiet. But I am not sure.

[jcwiggens]

brew

am i correct in assuming that 500 watts at 48v is the same as 2000 watts at 12v? would 8' prop  to keep rpm's down or would i be better off with 10' prop set? i think im pretty set with the fact that i wont be mounting it any higher then 20'. with this in mind, would i be better off with 6,8 or say 10' blades? where im putting it is on the flat part of the top of a hill. there will be only one building near it and nothing within a 1/2 mile from the direction of the prevailing wind. im at about 1800' in the Catskill mt of new york USA. we have some good wind here, averages about 15 mph except for a couple of summer months. since i feel that 20 foot is the highest i personally will be able to maintain is this feasible? more questions, is the tail what is used as furling, to deflect the angle the blades out of the wind? are there inverters that let you draw a load straight from the turbine and use the excess energy to charge batteries? thanks from the giant motor man :-)

[divemaster1963]

hey if your looking for a rpm gauge check  this bicycle one out it does mph/kph and rpms.

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.2682

[divemaster1963]

also by the way its very cheap so you will not be out very much or you can get more than one to put on different mills.

[CmeBREW]

JC--,

A lot of questions-- i'll try my best to answer.

"Am i correct in assuming that 500 watts at 48v is the same as 2000 watts at 12v?"

No. 500W at 48V is the same as 500W at 12v. Watts is the total power produced.  It's just that 48v at 500W is only 10.4 Amps (cooler;less line loss) instead of 500W at 12V is running at 41.6 Amps. (Total power in Watts= Volts x Amps)

I can understand only being able to go 20' high. (Esp. with that heavy motor)

My 5' mill is only 13' feet high because I HAVE to keep it low for now and it probably takes away Half the average watt Hours being this low.  I hate doing it. But I suspect yours 20' location may not be as bad.

The blade diameter?  I would be afraid of trying a 10' set at first.  

I would try the 8' set and if it stalls early you can always add some resistance (power resisters or extra length of wire)  to bring it out of stall.

But I am not that smart on this. If it happens, then simply tell it here, and those in the better know will tell you how much resistance to add.

It would be better and cheaper if you could make some (8' diam) pine blades first to see how the servo reacts in winds with this size prop.

And I highly suspect you can shut down (short the 3-phase wires together) an 8' set of blades with that servo in high winds when they come around, and the alternator will be able to KEEP it stopped no matter what giant winds hits it.  I am not so certain of the bigger 10' set.  (Make certain you have VERY good secure connectors and connections on the alternator)

They say 48V system is best anyway. I think That alternator will stall early if you try 12v or even 24v system. (The cut-in would be much Too low)

 I believe Around 170-180 rpm for a 48v system is a decent cut-in for an 8' diam mill.

It would be good if you could verify by hand-cranking the servo at around one rotation per second (60rpm) to see if it puts out (after rectifiers) around 16 volts. If it don't, then you need to say something about it here.  If it only puts out about 8v per rps, then it may be better suited for a 24v system.

You will need a 48v Charge Controller (Outback ;MorningSTar;etc) and a more expensive 48v power inverter.

Yes, the tail pivots upward (according to its weight and length) on an axis and as you say, causes the blades to turn out of the wind direction.  

I have never even made that type of furling yet, but I hear it is not as simple as it sounds.  It will probably take time to fine tune that.

"Are there inverters that let you draw a load straight from the turbine and use the excess energy to charge batteries?"

I'm not certain. If you are refering to 'Grid Tie' inverters, I do not know.

The common type of inverter has to have batteries in order to be regulated and work correctly.

-Don't feel too bad, the giant servo motor I got weighs 90lbs + 5 lbs for the steel arbor mount.  Strained my back for a week lifting it up on an 8' testing pole with a step ladder by myself. Felt like I was lifting Opra up by her feet!! Ouch.

Hope you have  friends and make a very sturdy tower.

-Hope you learn a lot--and don't ever get discouraged.

[jcwiggens]

hi brew

thanks again ive been looking up thing and am getter a better grasp of a final system set up. where im moving, the 150 x 150 lot, my neighbor there just mentioned without me asking that the is a lot of wind there. ill take a picture and post it but it looks like a naturally windy area because of the landscape. he has been there for years and says it get really windy there most of the time. with this in mind do you think its going to spin like a bat out of hell, and wont that make my voltage too high with this motor? can the voltage out or the turbine be split in some way to maybe charge parallel battery banks? can i still expect to get only 500 watts? what type of furling do you use? how do you actually get something this heavy up 40 feet? im going to try to make essentially a temporary pole arm to get the motor up, is that a crazy idea?.....looking forward to your reply......jc

[ghurd]

It can not spin like a bat out of hell, with the right blades.

Speed is power, obviously.

But there is only so much power in the wind.

Try to go faster and it tries to make more power than is available in the wind, so it 'stalls'.  Stalling is bad, but it seems to less important on drag-based VAWTs.

"and wont that make my voltage too high with this motor? "  Nope.  Higher than battery voltage is what makes charging amps.

FAQ,

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2004/6/2/33325/13962

hehe.  That motor is looking a little bigger than it did?

G-

[jcwiggens]

hi brew

ill post more later but in not going vawt way im going hawt. i think you suggested 8' blades. and ill probably try that. i cant make blades so i will get windmax guess i guess...more later...thanks

[jcwiggens]

hi g

sorry i thought it was brew. thanks for your advise and knowledge. im supposed to get my giant motor today and i will have to start testing it. is the any way to test it correctly with a rectifier to provide a load?....thanks jc

[luv2weld]

If you're lifting Oprah by her feet, you're looking at the

wrong end of that!!!!!! That's not a pretty picture!!!

Ralph

[ghurd]

Kind of guessing, but the 3 heavy wires in the box are probably the output.

You need 6 diodes or 2 bridge rectifiers.

The only simple way to test it with a meaningful load is a battery.

(Can hook it up to the car battery)

Diode connections,

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2003/9/11/84741/6758

Some decent info about rectifying 3-ph to DC,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rectifier

Be careful you do not exceed the rectifier reverse voltage when testing the open circuit voltage.

Just for giggles, NO battery involved in this, connect all 3 of the motor wires together in a short circuit, and give it a finger spin.

Be very careful about what you are doing when a battery is involved.

G-

[jcwiggens]

hi g

got it today....pheeeew....weighs a ton but not to big. spins easily by hand. i hooked up a volt meter to the red and white wires first and was getting 38 volts, fast spin got to 48 a couple of times. tried it to the brown and white and the red and brown, all were pretty much the same 38 volts. if i hook all 3 wires together do i put the black probe from the volt meter on the motor body? thanks for your reply....this is going to be interesting....:-)

[ghurd]

Nope.  Just connect all 3 and TRY to spin it by hand.  LOL.

No practical use at all, just fun.

G-

[TomW]

Ralph;

"Lifting Oprah by the feet"

Yeah, that thought ruined my lunch!

Tom

[jcwiggens]

hi g

thats a shocking idea lol. maybe ill ask my fiancee to try it for me lol..

[CmeBREW]

Sorry about that guys -- my 'wires' must of got crossed-- I meant to say "ORCA The whale".  It was as heavy as a whale!! I do NOT have a Opra fetish or anything twisted like that. But you are right, that is a disturbing thought.

[jcwiggens]

hi g

before you mentioned that it looked like star 3 phase. how can i tell and can i use it in delta? can this be done, and if so without opening up the motor? thanks jc

[ghurd]

Star is the most common connection.

If it was 'changeable' it would have 6 accessible large wires.

CmeBrew may have an idea.  (The biggest one I have weighs maybe 8~10 pounds)

G-

[zap]

Yeah sure... uh huh... and that other event really was a wardrobe malfunction!

[CmeBREW]

Hey JC--,

It is most likey Star and unchangable from the outside. I doubt the 'common' comes out to the connector. It don't on mine.  But on mine there is a green 'grounding' wire that comes out with the 3 phase wires to the main connector. It is just grounded to the aluminum chassis body. It has nothing to do with the 3 phase.

Yes, as Ghurd says, when you short the 3 phase wires together, the shaft will be MEGA difficult to turn.  This is good since this is what you need to do to keep the mill blades stopped when Very big wind come around. It will hold back the blades from turning and losing control. You will want to shut the mill down at such times or the giant wind gusts could break a blade or make to much noise.

Sounds like you got a good big motor there.  I wish I had that for my Vawt experiements even though they (mine) don't make much power.  The 12v cut-in on mine was too high at around 100rpm.  And mine had a  "Dampener" mechanism inside it that would always 'slightly brake' the shaft to a stop under about 100rpm which made it unfit for any Vawt rotor as I found out shortly after straining my back.

I'm glad yours don't have the dam dampener.

Like I said before, it is very important for you to test the voltage by hand cranking the shaft one rotation per second (use a stop watch and count out loud while turning) which equals 60rpm.  Tell us what voltage you are getting at 1 rps.  It should be around 16 volts in order to be used for a 48v system. (or;32 volts at 120rpm is the same since)

Twirling it by hand tells almost nothing since it may be turning 200-300rpm (or who knows what!) for a brief second.  Instead, just steadily hand crank it one rps to get a more accurate volt reading.  If it is around 16v (AFTER the 3 rectifiers), then I would try the 8' blades myself. (Since 16v @ 60rpm is the same as 48v @ 180rpm//good cut-in rpm for 8 footer)

IF you are not certain and confident about putting up such a heavy mill, you can always try to make a Savonious Vawt out of it.  We never said they don't make electricity.  I just put up a Savonious Vawt today.  But still waiting on some decent wind though.

-Be safe, have fun, and hope it goes well.

[jcwiggens]

hi g

is this the kind of bridge rectifiers i need?

 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=380113896726

and is that a good price or do you have any links to ones for sale? thanks ..jc

[ghurd]

Something like that.

I have a extreme prejudice against plastic bridges.  Unfounded or not.

The price seems a little too good for an unlimited quantity available.

Consider buying from the guys that pay to support this forum.  Support the team kind of thing?

And the Dans product quality is unquestionable.

http://www.forcefieldmagnets.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=98

G-