Spiral blade inside a pipe

[DragonFly III]

Can anyone link me to a site that explain such things as head and pretty much anything for begginers.  Wind is not an option at the house we are buying and is boarded by a large creek.  Chittenango Creek in New York.  The water is quite swift (has taken too many lives) Will sweep your feet right out from under you if your not carefull.  Ranges from 12" to 8' deep.  Can not Dam but want to use existing rocks to make a channel next to the shore.

[dnix71]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10297889@N08/4509033112/  there is a picture here from NY5 bridge. It looks shallow and swift. They got the creek cleaned up for fishing again, so I can see why people die in it. Wiki says it runs 300 cubic meters/sec average flow.

Rather than altering the shoreline on your property, why not build a pontoon bridge with an undershot wheel. The pontoon would float between pilings like a floating boat dock in a marina. That way the creek can rise and fall and the generator will go with the flow. You can fish off the deck and only tell who you have to that you are making power from the river.

[DragonFly III]

that is a wonderfull idea.  I was just thinking about a site I saw quite some time ago about windmill with 7 separate blade assemblies on the same flexable line.  It ran one alternator.  Can't remember the specs but if I can find it I'll post the link.

I was thinking of this Idea in a dream last night.  Yes I think in my dreams. (weird huh?)

Connect multiple props spaced enough to prevent turbulence from one to the other one a thick cable.  The kind you can find in weed whackers.  I have already used one for a one person rope.  I can handle a lot.

The Idea is;

the entire shaft will be able to move with the current like a snake.  will need to be neutrally boyant.  I want it to hover in the middle somewhere it won't be seen and of course don't want it to crash either.

This will run to a low RPM alternator.  Preferably direct connect.  Can't tell how to connect it yet because I need to know hows fast it will go first.  I will Probably convert another car alternator with good mags and in a waterresistant case. 

I could go on but i don't have time right now.  Any questions or comments will be greatly appreciated.

DFIII

[DragonFly III]

It use to be a beautiful creek.  Lots of natural Fish, beautiful trout.  When the thaw comes or a good rain, the creek turns vicious.  It can rise up to 3-4 ft and rush like white water rapids.  The pontoon would defiantly need to come out of the water.  The rise in the water was the reason the creek got "cleaned up" Dredged to reduce property damage. I can understand why but it was my childhood playground and all the banks were natural like the one in that picture now some are huge boulders that were brought in.  We were barely teenagers and we had to just stand and watch the bull dozer plow up the creek.
OK I'm Done reminiscing

[dnix71]

http://www.ampair.com/ampair/waterpower.asp

AmpAir and Aqua6Gen make tow behind turbines for sailboats. I don't know if you could home brew one, but all you would have to do is attach it to a float and rope and toss it in the creek.

[DragonFly III]

I have actually checked out a couple of those and some look like converted car alternators.  Not sure what they look like inside yet.

That is a good Idea about the float.  The only thing is, I would have to be carefull.  A pontoon is going to make it a bit harder to tell that something is going on under the water.  A float, i think, Would raise more curiosity about what is going on under the water. 

Maybe a comprimise though.  What if the float had weight added to it to make it more nuetrally bouyant.  Then the float would be under the surface of the water.  Attach it to and anchor with a line to the shore to keep it from getting swept away and to be able to pull it in without getting into the water.

I'd like to stay as stealth as posible since i don't own the land on both sides.

[TomW]

Just build it into a "boat" or pontoon that looks like a boat. License it as a boat then it is legally in the water. No motor / no sail boats license cheap here anyway.  $5 a year last I checked.

Then it just looks like a boat. You can drag it out as needed. Tether it to shore or the bottom, etc. Load it with ballast to get the desired depth in the water.

Just what I would do if "no fixed objects" were allowed.

I ain't no lawyer.

Tom

[DragonFly III]

A thought about a Spiral blade similar to an auger popped into my head.

The pipe could be 12" dia and the blade as close to that with clearance.  The water would enter the front of the pipe and run through it causing the the Helix blade to turn.  The water would be in contact with the blade the entire length of the pipe.  High torque???

The alt could be a radial wagon wheel type alt.  The rotor assembly would be attached to the blade shaft with as Few spindles as possible.  The rotor would be the iron ring of the wagon wheel with the mags attached to that. Then air core coils around the rotor with a shield to block debris.  The rotor would be at least the same dia as the pipe so that it wouldn't restrict the flow of water.

Big rotor, more poles, more volts at low RPM?

Just a thought

DFIII

[DragonFly III]

Tom,

That is an exelant Idea.  The boat would be stable and I could use a planner board to adjust the height of the blades.

[veewee77]

Think again. . .

The biggest thing wrong with that is that the water would just follow the auger around and down if you stopped the shaft. . . making like a long spiral pipe. . . ie *no torque*. . .

Just a little more thought. . .

Doug

[DragonFly III]

Well.  That is why I put it on here.  To get thrown down Like breaking a little kids dreams
Just Kidding.  That was a good point.  So it would be better to put props spaced appropriately?

[DragonFly III]

www.absak.com/tech/turbines.pdf

At the bottom of the page is an under water turbine which produces 100w in free running water.

[dbcollen]

You would need to put stator vanes between props to straighten out the flow, or it will form a vortex flowing past the props and give no torque.

Dustin

[frepdx]

A thought about a Spiral blade similar to an auger popped into my head...

I think your idea is close to two different designs; 1) an Archimedes screw (running in reverse) which has air pockets at the top and water below. The air pockets address veewee77's comment. That design can be slow and have a lot of torque depending on how long the auger is. 2) A kaplin turbine, which once optimized doesn't need a very long spiral but spins a lot faster.

[12AX7]

Hello!

You mean something like this?    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsiQAQ__lLs&feature=related

or this?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pVCwmKMi6s&feature=related

and this...   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjOUC6SoQbs&feature=related

and a bunch of others over there.... 

I guess it could/IS being done!

ax7
Mark

[DragonFly III]

12ax7,

That's the Idea.  I just didn't think to only have the water contact the bottom of the blades only.  Gravity seems to be the major force here.

[12AX7]

Hello!

I'm unable to locate it now,  but I have seen a thread (not this site) where someone made a spiral turbine that was running in a rivers current (completely under water).  I don't know how deep, nor what the speed of the current was.
I think his Spiral was inside a series of 30gal plastic drums (not sure what the diameter was).  His alternator was mounted above the water and was coupled to the turbine by a long flexible shaft.

I believe he was getting just over 300 watts (that's 24/7).  He had piled rocks and logs to make a 'funnel' to force the water into the pipe,  and that's the area he said he needed to 'rework' 

I don't recall (he might not have posted) his alternator set up.   

Are you able to post some pictures of the location you have in mind?

ax7

[DragonFly III]

A sad day has come.  The house that we were going to buy bordering the creek has fallen through.  We are looking at a house bordering some water but I think its marsh.  Not too much I can do with that.  Maybe someday I could put in a stream or something.  I haven't had a chance to see the land yet.  if you google Chittenango Creek, you will find several pics of different sections of the creek.

[Rover]

A marsh presents a nice open area for wind 

[DragonFly III]

Ok, news with the potential has arised.  Back to the house on chittenango creek.  We fired the realtor and now the owner wants to deal with us again.  So any more Ideas for open water (I don't want to alter the creek) are welcome.  Could someone please explain what is head.  What I understand, it is the verticle distance between the start of the pipe and the end.  If you drop 3 ft. of elavation you have 3 foot head no matter how long the pipe is.  Even close?

[DragonFly III]

Oh yeah Rover.  Both locations are wide open.  Trees bordering but plenty of space to stay away from the trees with out going up too high.  I just like the consistancy of hydro.  The water is always flowing to some capacity.

[damian]

As a lad I went on a tour of one of the power houses at Bonneville dam on the Columbia.  They essentially work in the way you are describing.  A "prop" inside of a tube is spun by water falling through the tube.  In the Bonneville case the "prop" is about 20 feet in diameter and drives a large vertical shaft at 75 rpm, which turns a large alternator.  The powerhouse there has several of these units in a line across the river.  I would imagine that this design does not scale down well but it is certainly valid in principle.  If you do not want to alter the creek then an undershot wheel?  Head is the vertical height of the water column you create.  Horizontal run is not a factor as long as the pipe is large enough.  To find out what large enough is, you will want to account for the friction losses in the piping run.  These can be found on tables in terms of head loss (in feet of head) per 100' of piping run at a given flow (gpm).  For instance, 4" PVC pipe with an i.d. of 4.026" running at 140 gallons per minute will create a head loss of 1.1 feet of head per 100 feet of pipe.  So if you ran 200 feet of it and had 10 feet of head (vertical distance from intake to turbine) your actual head would be 8.8 feet at 140 gpm due to the friction losses in that size pipe at that flow rate. 

[DragonFly III]

I really just don't see myself running pipe for a turbine.  I just don't like the idea of building a damn.  Or running that much pipe.
I'm definetly leaning towards underwater turbines.  I wonder if a funneling shroud around the prop would help to channel more water directly to the blade and I could mount a domed screen for debris. 

[hydrosun]

If it is at all possible to divert water so you can get greater effective head on your turbine it makes it a lot easier. In an open stream you probably have less than one foot head. If you could divert into a pipe that retains the head from intake to outflow you would need less water to produce the same amount of power. So the turbine is smaller and lighter and rpm is higher and less gearing up to the speed needed  for your generator.
 If that isn't possible you need to check out the design at althydro.com   It is a vertical shaft  turbine up to a pulley to alternator that could look like an electric outboard on a boat.  I found  that  design a dozen years ago when I  was trying to discreetly  get some power off a major river. I don't have any actual experience with it. It was originally used to pump water in some projects on the Nile river.
The other low profile design comes from sailboats.  A propeller  on a short shaft was attached to a stiff cable that ran at a shallow angle to a swivel on the back of the boat, and from there to the shaft of a slow speed pm motor.  Both of these designs allow the use of non sealed generators.
Chris

[DragonFly III]

There are spots in the creek that In one way or another have created a channel.  Like a "y" in the creek.  Usually one side is larger and slower and one is narrow with the water rushing through.  I could only hope that I get lucky enough to find one of these on my property.  If not, I could use boulders to create a natural looking diverter to make a small channel to force more water into the props.  I'm hoping that multiple small props will give me the speed and power to turn an alternator.  I am looking to maybe convert another car alternator but do a much better job on mine then I did with my friends.  I'll have more time to collect better materials.  I do realize that it would be more efficient to use a damn and pipe for a turbine but its also more efficient to drive a car than pedal a bike.  Which one has a less impact on nature.  A damn may seem Innocent but in actuality it can cause serious changes to the ecology of the stream.  Animals that have evolved to be able to live in that stream may not be able to live on the top side of the damn because the water is no longer flowing freely.  Also the slower running water is easier to heat and a couple of degrees could kill small organisms that other life depends on.  You won't see the impact immediately but it will happen.

[DragonFly III]

Here is the link to the multiple prop windmill.  its call the Salsam Sky Serpant.
http://gcaptain.com/maritime/blog/the-most-interesting-wind-turbine-designs?3397

[kurt]

salsam  used to post here he built an interesting wind mill but then he went commercial got that government grant and all that and turned into a really bad used car salesman like guy and sorta got himself somewhere between run outta here on a rail and laughed outta town. here and a few other reputable RE sites about the same time frame.

[DragonFly III]

I use to work for an auto customization shop.  I ran the front of the business and the big boss was the main installer and also did some customer service.  He is a great installer.  he could deal with cars that even mechanics specifically trained couldn't do, but when it came to customer service he really sucked.  Even though he was a great installer, when he went into business for himself he quickly failed.  Maybe That guy should have left the business stuff to someone else and just build windmills.

[Ungrounded Lightning Rod]

Ok, news with the potential has arised.  Back to the house on chittenango creek.  We fired the realtor and now the owner wants to deal with us again.

You may still be on the hook to the realtor if he introduced you to the house in question.  Check with your lawyer.

So any more Ideas for open water (I don't want to alter the creek) are welcome.

That is very limiting.

You could try a poncelet wheel (or other undershot wheel).  But without a structure to direct the water it won't be all that efficient.

You could also try a crossflow turbine without a housing.  A crossflow is the hydrodynamic analog of a squirrel-cage savonius.

There are a number of water turbine designs that are hydrodynamic analogs of wind turbines.    (However the analogy is not TOO complete, because air is very compressible and water is not.  This makes the fluid dynamics somewhat different and the optimizations ditto.)

Could someone please explain what is head.  What I understand, it is the verticle distance between the start of the pipe and the end.  If you drop 3 ft. of elavation you have 3 foot head no matter how long the pipe is.  Even close?

Head is one way to express the pressure difference between the input and output of a turbine.  It corresponds to the difference in the height of the water at the inlet to the turbine system and the height at the output.

Water turbines and wheels get power from two things.  Pressure turbines get it mainly from the water flow across the pressure drop - i.e. head change.  They let the water move across the pressure difference while resisting its motion, extracting power.  Velocity turbines get it mainly from the change in momentum of rapidly moving water.  Like wind turbines they slow the fluid motion down and extract some of the energy of its motion.

Wheels and turbines may take power from both head and velocity change to various extents.  For instance:  A pelton wheel is, at the core, a velocity turbine, but the total assembly acts as a pressure turbine:  The pressure of the water is converted to momentum when the water is accelerated as it emerges from the jet(s).  An overshot wheel gets most of its power from lowering the water across a head, but some from the incident momentum of the water leaving the raceway.  An undershot wheel may be primarily a velocity turbine, but designs like the Poncelot also efficiently take power from the small difference in height of the water upstream and downstream of the turbine.

Since you want a free turbine in an unmodified stream you're limited to designs that are primarily velocity tutbines.

[ghurd]

Ok, news with the potential has arised.  Back to the house on chittenango creek.  We fired the realtor and now the owner wants to deal with us again.

You may still be on the hook to the realtor if he introduced you to the house in question.  Check with your lawyer.

(ghurd is having "quote issues" he does not understand.)
(G-)

And you may still be on the hook if you knew the real estate was for sale because of the realtor's sign, classified, website, mass-mailing, etc, or if you contacted the selling or your realtor at any time during, or if you contacted the realtor at any time the house was listed with either realtor or after the listing ended.

The issues get even more complicated if there is a listing (seller's) and buying (your) realtor.

At this point, I'd say the realtors Will get paid their percentage if you purchase the property.
Even if they have to sue all parties and all et als involved to get it.
Here, they can do it (and they do).
And they can sue for the full market/sale value of the property, plus legal and court costs.

Paying them isn't so bad.
We almost bought a 150x150' corner lot that was "for sale by owner".
Contacted a 'family friend' with experience in this type of thing.
Turns out the deeds on both sides had legal claim to 75' of the 150', leaving a 75x75' plot at the corner (mostly taken up with road and ditch) that was uncontested.
It also left a 75x75' chunk for the 2 neighbors to contest with each other, and the guy who was trying to sell the corner lot.
Last I knew (10 years ago?) they had been arguing about it for 8 years.
The lot is still vacant today.
Someone must "own it" by now.
I am glad it is not me.
G-
i fixed the quote thing for thing for you
Kurt

[zander1976]

If you want to pump the water into your yard without modifying the shoreline then you could use a Ram Pump and force water into your yard then run it through a turbine in your yard.

The premise of the ram pump is a water pipe running downhill or in your case along the river with a ball in the end and a T intersection before the ball. As the water fills it pushes the ball to the end forcing the water to stop. When the water flow stops suddenly the water is forced up the T pipe. As the pressure backs off again so does the ball, allowing water to flow again.

[jimovonz]

you could use a Ram Pump and force water into your yard then run it through a turbine in your yard

I don't think that anyone who has experience with either ram pumps and/or hydro turbines would seriously consider making a suggestion like this

[TomW]

you could use a Ram Pump and force water into your yard then run it through a turbine in your yard

I don't think that anyone who has experience with either ram pumps and/or hydro turbines would seriously consider making a suggestion like this

Jim;

That was just a cover story to "legitimize" a link to his site selling unrelated books. I killed the link but left the rest.

I agree it is ludicrous to suggest this, especially in a run of river application.

Just the facts as I see them.

Tom