My turbine power wall

[fabricator]

This is what I've been working on lately, the big gray box is where the 2awg aluminum from the turbine terminates and it goes to 6awg copper to the two paralleled three phase bridges (Thanks FishBonz) Then the DC side is all 4awg battery cable, the wire trays are .050 aluminum, the rack is from menards 300lbs per shelf, four batteries are only 232lbs, now I just need 12 more batteries.

[Seekscore]

Damn...I'm Jealous! Looks great!

Mike

[JoeD.]

Looks great!  Those shelves will actually hold that much per shelf? If I did load them that much, I think an anchor to the wall would be in order, just in case.

[dnix71]

OOOH, Nice 

Yeah, lots more batteries. Why such big inverters? That's enough power to run a whole house, except that 4 batteries wouldn't last very long doing it.

What's the idle load of the inverters? Are they sine or square wave?

[freejuice]

Hi Fabricator,
 Have you played around with those inverters yet? How are the doing? I have one 2500 watt 48v inverter just like one of those three...I like the idea of being able to stack them, to increase the watts if need be....might add another one later on.

 I know these things are not outbacks, or the other pricey inverters...but if they last, what the heck???
 The one I have is square wave....about the only draw back.

Nice setup you got there!

 I'm up to 8 golf cart batteries....still working on the tower upgrade...hopefully the 17 footer will be flying in a about two weeks

[SparWeb]

Am I mistaken or are the pair of inverters synchronized to deliver 240V?  The inverters you have look like they are in the same enclosure as several other brands (eg Samlex) which don't offer the ability to "stack".  If this is a successful stacking of inexpensive inverters, then congratulations!  Having 240V would be mandatory in my house to run the well pump, perhaps the same case in yours.

But it begs the question: what will you do with the third inverter?

[ChrisOlson]

Am I mistaken or are the pair of inverters synchronized to deliver 240V?  The inverters you have look like they are in the same enclosure as several other brands (eg Samlex) which don't offer the ability to "stack".  If this is a successful stacking of inexpensive inverters, then congratulations!  Having 240V would be mandatory in my house to run the well pump, perhaps the same case in yours.

But it begs the question: what will you do with the third inverter?

I'm not Dale, nor do I play him in the movies, but those are Accurate Tools networked, semi-pure sine wave inverters.  They come in stackable 240 volt split-phase and 120 volt single phase models.

I just bought a 240 volt model for my house too.  Dale has two 240 volt units stacked to run his well pump, the other is a 120 volt unit.  They are superb for running motor loads with the semi-pure sine wave.  Slightly more power efficient than a pure sine wave unit, and electric motors can't tell the difference.  If you have sensitive electronic equipment that needs the pure sine wave, they're not quite good enough for that.  But othewise they run computers and most digital clocks just fine.

Those inverters only draw about .15 amp in idle mode and when you use them as master/slave the slave unit is shut completely down in idle mode while the master detects the load and starts up the slaves as needed via the networking interface.  Those inverters can be stacked up to, I believe, 10 kW.  They are also voltage independent in stacked arrays - you can mix 12, 24 and 48 volt inverters in the same stack as long as the output is the same for every inverter in the stack (120 or 240 volt split-phase).

Very, very nice setup for a person who doesn't want to drop the Big Bux on an inverter/charger unit from Outback or Xantrex, and yet wants a scalable system if you need more power.
--
Chris

[Ungrounded Lightning Rod]

I'm not Dale, nor do I play him in the movies, but those are Accurate Tools networked, semi-pure sine wave inverters.   ...  They are superb for running motor loads with the semi-pure sine wave.  Slightly more power efficient than a pure sine wave unit, and electric motors can't tell the difference.  If you have sensitive electronic equipment that needs the pure sine wave, they're not quite good enough for that.  But othewise they run computers and most digital clocks just fine.

Can you give, or link to, a definition of "semi-pure sine wave"?

[fabricator]

Yeah, my reply to everything is basically what Chris said, you cant get 110 out of the 220 inverters that's why you need 220 and 110 volt models, I tried one of the 48VDC to 220VAC models on my 220 pump which has a 1.5hp motor and draws 55kw when it starts, it ran for about two seconds till the surge caps emptied and the inverter shut down, then I added another inverter so now I effectively have one 5000/10,000 inverter, it starts and runs the pump no problem now, but the pump will kill four batteries pretty fast, especially since we are in the dog days right now, hot as hell and little wind.
These things seem to be pretty robust and well made, but they are NOT UL approved of course, I sure would be happy to see one of the big name inverter builders make something like this, but then of course instead of $250 bux they would cost $1500 bux, in my humble usually meaningless to anyone opinion the cost of inverters from the big name companies is absolutely preposterous.

[ChrisOlson]

Can you give, or link to, a definition of "semi-pure sine wave"?

Not really.  All I know is that's what it says and it says it's proprietary.  I assume the sine wave is not as blocky as a regular modified sine wave or something.  Where my Cobra inverter in my RV will make a microwave oven or ceiling fan buzz real bad, these or my modified sine wave Schumacher inverters don't.  Like Dale said, they seem to be a pretty well-built unit but they're not UL listed.

My Schumacher inverters that I use in my house aren't UL listed either.  But I don't recall that I've lost much sleep over it.
--
Chris

[fabricator]

Oh I aint gonna lose a seconds sleep over it, I just hope the Chinese start hurting the big names enough that it causes some real price competition, http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290462811865&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT#ht_6646wt_1137 you can stack ten inverters for 25,000 watts, 50,000 watts surge.

[dnix71]

In Engrish, from a website that promotes the product,
http://4000wattsorgreater34.hostaim.com/Stackable_Power_Inverter_25005000_W_24v_DC_To_120v_Ac.html
Our new accurate tools atsiu series inverters incorporate sps. With a no load current draw on this. Inverter of less than 0.15a. You can expect longer adn smoother operation.
What makes our inverters different from. Traditional modified sine wave and pure sine wave inverters? Has its own fully integrated microprocessor. The output creating what we call na active wave form. At rest you get 6.

Smiple steps/cycle, whereas at full power the active wave will change to a full. Essentially your inverter is not wasting power, especially at rest/idle saving you up to 30% over a pure sine wave output. These inverters will run laser printers and other sensitive. Furthermore the microprocessor controls a. Full diagnostic progrma protecting against low voltage, high voltage, short.
Circuits, overloading, overheating, and reverse polarity. No more to what is wrong! You can even stack a 12v inverter with any combination of 24v or 48v inverters (given they are the same output watts & volts). This means your 24v solar panel and 48v wind alternator can work on the same system!

You will also notice our inverters are heavy and not. Our fans only run when they need to, saving you even more power! Low batter alarm w/ auto shutdown. Overload & short circuit protection.

High surge capability (to start motors). Voltage input range 20-30v dc. Dimensions 16.54l x 10.04 w x 3.94 h. This inverter is for a 24v dc system! This inverter is compatible with atsiu series only.
Link 2 for 5000w continuous. Link 3 for 7500w continuous. Link 4 for 10000w continuous. Link 5 for 12500w continuous. Link 6 for 15000w continuous.
Link 7 for 17500w continuous. Link 8 for 20000w continuous. Link 9 for 22500w continuous. Lnik 10 for 25000w continuous! Only inverters with identical ac output (watts & volts) can be linked/stacked.
120v and 240v inverters must be on separate systems. 240v inverters may not be wired into 120v. 120v inverters may not be wired into 240v. You can stack a 12v (2500w output) with a 24 and/or 48v (2500w output). Your solar panel uses a 12v invertre but your wind alternator uses a 48v inverter, yes they 2 inverters can be stacked!
(given each inverter has identical output). Units link in parallel only on the ac side, not in series. 2 120v inverters cannot be wired into 240v output!
This power inverter can be hooked directly to your 24v power source with the supplied cables. The unit has 2 x 120v power sockets. These units retail for around $900.00! New in the retail box, not refurbished as others may sell!

Until this listing expires you can read most of the above in English here: http://cgi.ebay.com/STACKABLE-POWER-INVERTER-2500-5000-W-24V-DC-240V-AC-/330463115809   No returns and basically no reserve on this listing. I think I'll wait until these guys are ready for prime time.

[ChrisOlson]

I think I'll wait until these guys are ready for prime time.

They're prime enough for me.  I hooked up my new 240 volt one I got and it starts and runs my jet pump with no problem.  For less than 300 bux I'm not going to complain one bit.
--
Chris

[fabricator]

There is a poster here who has been using them for a year or two, they have a website, serious-sounds.com i believe.

[Ungrounded Lightning Rod]

In Engrish, ...  Until this listing expires you can read most of the above in English ...

OK, sounds like they're saying it's MSM when idling (probing for loads, maybe nightlights and wall-warts) to save power and switches to true sine when the big loads come on.

[ChrisOlson]

OK, sounds like they're saying it's MSM when idling (probing for loads, maybe nightlights and wall-warts) to save power and switches to true sine when the big loads come on.

I just got my 240 volt inverter today and don't have it installed yet but hooked it up temporary to run my jet pump.  I hooked up my Sun scope to it a bit ago to see, and it's not a PERFECT sine wave like you get with genset power.  But it's pretty close.  Even in idle mode it's not real blocky like a cheap modified sine inverter is.  But it definitely "cleans up" when you put a load on it.

My jet pump has a 3/4 horse motor on it and it starts and runs that absolutely beautifully.  The motor doesn't make any abnormal noises, runs nice and cool, the voltage is 238.7 and the amp draw on the motor is 2.3 amps, which is identical to what it is running on genset power.  The pump ran for about five minutes while my wife took a shower, so I monitored it while it ran and it stayed right there - the voltage and amp draw never varied by much more than .5 volt and about .2 amps.

Very happy with it.

Dale said one inverter wouldn't start his 1.5 horse well pump because the surge load was too high for one inverter.  But after he hooked up two of them I guess it starts and runs his pump fine too.
--
Chris

[freejuice]

Thanks for the info on the inverter guys....the inveerter appears to be ok for the dollar sunk into it...cant wait to get everything hooked up
 All the best folks,
 Gavin

[dnix71]

The eBay listings for this all say "No Returns." That's a deal killer for me. If I had a problem in the first 30 days I would expect to be able to swap one out. Plus no UL or UN cert means it's strictly off-grid only.

0.15 amps idle at 24v is 3.6 watts. That's pretty good. Having one disable the other when paired to save power is good, too. I can get a true sine inverter that size for a little more money, with UL so I'll pass. I have a digital control washer that cost $450. I'm not willing to chance that.

[SparWeb]

Thanks for the info Dale (aka Chris).

They definitely beat the other "cheap" inverters I've seen before (and owned).  Listed UL or not, it has its uses.  As with anything else, you get what you pay for.  The extra cost for a Xantrex / Outback is the cost of the safety features, engineering effort, tech support, stocking parts, dealer network, convenience features, yada yada yada.  There are times when it's worth paying for all that stuff.

[ChrisOlson]

The extra cost for a Xantrex / Outback is the cost of the safety features, engineering effort, tech support, stocking parts, dealer network, convenience features, yada yada yada.  There are times when it's worth paying for all that stuff.

It could be I suppose.  But my Xantrex inverter says "Made in China" on it too.  I have one of the older ones and Xantrex got bought out after mine was built so I don't know where they're made now.

I'm using stacked Schumacher inverters that are not UL listed for 120 volt power - I have 5 of them.  One of those is 7 years old and I've never had a single issue with it.  They're 2 kW units and I get them for around $200 each, so I've been pretty happy with those too.  But they came with a three year warranty from a company in the US that's been in business for over 40 years (Don Schumacher Racing or DSR Enterprises).  The oldest one says "Made in USA" on it.  The newer ones say "Made in Mexico".
--
Chris

[Harold in CR]

 Just checked out DSR, and they only show a 3000-6000 Inverter, for over $500.00   Got any more info Chris ??  Any updates on your experiment ??

[ChrisOlson]

Just checked out DSR, and they only show a 3000-6000 Inverter, for over $500.00   Got any more info Chris ??  Any updates on your experiment ??

Harold,

I guess you're not supposed to link to commercial products here but I don't know how else to to show it.  These are the ones I got, and this is the place I got them from:
http://www.farmandfleet.com/products/576757-2000w_continuous_power_inverter.html?lref=%2fcatalog%2ffind.aspx%3ft%3dpower%2binverter

I have one of these in my shop truck too and when I've left equipment sitting out in the field in -20 F weather I've plugged two Cummins ISC diesels into that one inverter, with 1,200 watt heaters in each one, and the one inverter will run both engine heaters.  They're a very robust unit.
--
Chris

[kurt]

actually the rule is you cannot come in and post to a commercial site as your first post or a site were you are selling something after you have some posts under your belt then we don't worry about it so much unless you are obviously spamming or something.

[riahserf]

fab,

The cheap inverters I have, have voltage on the neutral (white wire). If these do, you should change your breakers to a single two pole... as just killing the one leg doesn't shut off/protect whatever it is going to supply.

[fabricator]

fab,

The cheap inverters I have, have voltage on the neutral (white wire). If these do, you should change your breakers to a single two pole... as just killing the one leg doesn't shut off/protect whatever it is going to supply.

Thanks for the heads up, I'll check into that.

[ruddycrazy]

Here's Q on those chinese inverters, are the output AC connections isolated meaning if say one was to short one of the AC outputs to ground would the inverter trip or would the poor chap get a zap that will see him pushin up daisies.

I did ask an electrician mate about the best way to hook the wiring up in my shed and he said make sure you ground the neutral wire so in the evident a short happens you won't get fried. With my Kipoint 3kw pure sine inverters the AC outputs are totally isolated so grounding of the neutral wire isn't required. But it may pay to do a check on these cheap inverters as insurance is the best policy when playing with AC off the grid.

Cheers Bryan
 

[Boss]

Hey Chris
if it wouldn't too much bother the next time you have your scope hooked up to the output could you take a picture?
Brian

[riahserf]

I did ask an electrician mate about the best way to hook the wiring up in my shed and he said make sure you ground the neutral wire so in the evident a short happens you won't get fried.

Cheers Bryan
 

Vecter inverters say not to do this. "It will damage the unit and void the warranty"....

I can say for sure,.. it lets the magic smoke out. 

[fabricator]

As far as I know on any inverter like these you need a separate ground, code here requires two no less than 6 feet apart eight feet long driven down, then 8 awg solid copper to the grounding lug on the inverter case, you run the green wire to a ground buss in the box, totally separate from the neutral, the neutral only runs to the neutral bus, the ground from the load goes to the ground buss in the box which bonds the load to the ground rods through the inverter.
You never bond the neutral and ground in a floating ground system, and the neutrals and grounds must be completely separate from the grid ground and neutrals, if you do you'r gonna need one of those welding gas size tanks of compressed electrical smoke, cause you'r gonna use a lot of it.

[ghurd]

Most cheapie inverters do not even have a wire connected to the "3rd hole" (ground) in the outlet.

That goes for everything I ever took apart, even Tripp Lite and Xantrex.

Cheap inverters hot and neutral usually are not like a grid power outlet.
Inverters seem to make one go UP half way while the other goes DOWN half way.
Not a very good description.  Best I can word it.
G-

[wpowokal]

Perhaps it is sufficient to say that any ground connection on such inverters is to ground the metal case only for EMF shielding.

Allan

[DanG]

Alternates + 60 on one wire and - 60 on the other to mimic 120VAC, thats seen at 120VAC between the two wires but 60V pulsed DC in relation to ground.

[ChrisOlson]

Alternates + 60 on one wire and - 60 on the other to mimic 120VAC, thats seen at 120VAC between the two wires but 60V pulsed DC in relation to ground.

I don't have a 120 volt Accurate Tools inverter, but maybe Dale could check this on his:

My Schumacher inverters would be considered "cheap" inverters and they only have power on the black wire.  In idle mode if I check from black to white it shows about 91 volts and it's pulsing (this is checking it at the panel).  If I check from black to ground I get the same thing.  If I check from white to ground there's nothing.  But as soon as the inverter detects a load the voltage goes up.  If I just turn on a 15 watt CF light bulb the voltage will rise to around 103.  If I turn on a bigger load, like the motor in my drill press, the voltage goes to 117.  If I start drilling a piece of steel the voltage rises to 125.

But even when there's a load on it I've never gotten a voltage reading on the neutral bus to ground.  But I can't use a bonding screw in the panel to bond the neutral to the ground because if I do it trips the Ground Fault Interrupter on the inverter.  When I first started using those inverters I tested it by plugging in one of my wife's old 140 watt curling irons, which just has a polarized two-prong plug, and I dropped it in a bucket of water.  It instantly tripped the GFI on the inverter and shut the power off.  So I figured they're "good enough".

Like I said, I got a 240 volt inverter like Dale has but that has power on both legs, which it's supposed to for 240 volt split phase.  Either leg measures 120 volts to ground and 240 between the two.  It would be interesting for Dale to test his 120 volt one and see if it actually carries power on the neutral wire.  I'm thinking it doesn't if it's like my Schumacher 120 volt inverters.
--
Chris