Author Topic: Epdm tank liner (Read 11752 times)

jarrod9155 · « **on:** October 03, 2010, 08:37:26 AM »

Well my tank is almost done 4 by 8 by 3 feet deep around 370 gallons and i was wondering if anyone has tried splicing and gluing the seems . My Friend does rubber roof for his roofing company and thinks there would be no problem with this leaking and would be alot nicer with out the wrinkles . Any feedback on this would be great thanks . Thanks jarrod

DanG · « **Reply #1 on:** October 03, 2010, 08:57:43 AM »

I think it'd do fine except for the four corners, I don't see a way to wrap or insert pieces to avoid spots that rely on filler to plug voids. Maybe someone somewhere makes prefab pyramid shaped corner patches? Surely an aquaculture hobbyist has found a better way to make tank liners.

Why not use it one piece and use the glue to seal off and tack down the gift-wrap folds?

MattM · « **Reply #2 on:** October 03, 2010, 09:04:39 PM »

They can seal the corner pretty easily. A good epdm layer can have you sealed up nicely in no time flat. You can maybe get 10 years out of a rubber roof before it vulcanized. Leave slack, epdm shrinks about a half inch per ten feet in 10 years time. The glue should last that long if it's done right. You just don't want it to tear prior to it's life expectancy.

MattM · « **Reply #3 on:** October 03, 2010, 09:09:12 PM »

Quote from: DanG on October 03, 2010, 08:57:43 AM

Surely an aquaculture hobbyist has found a better way to make tank

I wonder if that spray on bed liner stuff would hold up. It acts like resin and is affordable.

GaryGary · « **Reply #4 on:** October 03, 2010, 10:17:39 PM »

Hi,
I think that any seams that go under the waterline in the tank are just asking for trouble.
I'd stick with the one piece that is large enough to line the whole tank with the Chinese take out box type folds at the corners.

If you do it this way, you will end up with different thicknesses of EPDM going over the top. To avoid an uneven top edge that would be hard to get a lid to seal to, I cut scraps of EPDM to bring the areas that had only one layer of EPDM up to the same level as the areas that had 3 layers.
Then cut plastic deck board pieces to place over the EPDM and screwed the deck wood down to the tank frame. This makes a nice surface to seal the lid to.
The whole thing really needs to be sealed well enough to not leak vapor out at the lid to tank joint.

http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/SpaceHeating/SolarShed/Tank/Construction.htm

The other thing to be really careful about is to not let the EPDM bridge over the tank corners when you put it in -- when you fill the tank with water, any EPDM bridges will get pushed into the tank corners and that stretches the EPDM.
Keep the tank temp down to 170F or less for a long life.

Gary

jarrod9155 · « **Reply #5 on:** October 04, 2010, 12:37:28 PM »

The stretching scares me didnt know that maybe I will just wait for a full piece thats big enough .

MattM · « **Reply #6 on:** October 04, 2010, 07:42:20 PM »

We lined a sand-supported pool integrated into a surroundind deck back in 1987 with EPDM and it didn't fail until 2000. It failed when some teens were busting ice out of it for whatever reason. (They put an icebreaker bar through the bottom in many locations.) It survived every season without fail, including the freezing weather. It wasn't covered and was exposed to direct sunlight year round. It was 6 foot by 12 foot by 2.5 foot in depth. I seriously doubt a liner is going to fail if it's done according to the directions!

Tom Sullivan · « **Reply #7 on:** October 04, 2010, 09:48:26 PM »

This may be a good time to note a problem with one of the EPDM pool liner suppliers. When building my large system, the first project was the tank, which I built during the late winter / early spring. Summer came and went with many other projects, and, to make a long story short, it was 7-8 months later while doing tax returns I spotted a problem with the billing. My wife, knowing I was doing the solar project, never mentioned anything about the bill on the credit card when the statement came in. While looking everything over for taxes, I found my supplier, Pond Solutions out of Troy MI, had boosted my charge from $150 plus freight to well over $700!! I called them, left messages, emailed them, sent them letters by snail mail, not a single response from them. I got the local Chamber of Commerce involved, they contacted them, got no response, and basically just listed them as questionable and unresponsive. I tried the credit card company, but they said since I didn't contest it with 30 days, I was SOL.

Beware of you pool liner supplier.

Tom

MattM · « **Reply #8 on:** October 05, 2010, 06:33:11 AM »

We used material from roofing, a Goodyear product. Six inch laps, two of them, as we laid the center strip in first. Corners folded like a Chinese candybox then snipped so that only six inches extended from where the sides met. Not real pretty as it bulges in the double thickness. We secured one side to the plank, marked the material for the lap with chalk, then bonded the corner laps. The side walls sat loose basically against a solid wood plank sandbox. The rubber went up and over the perimeter. Perimeter nailed off ever four inches and held with hemmed sheet metal strips. A header was built butted up to the inside edge of the perimeter so that people stepped in and out on it and not the liner; no fasteners on the header penetrated the EPDM. The weight of the water tamps the sand so hard it felt like a solid bottom.

The biggest problem with the pool was the lack of a drain. We had to wet-dry vaccuum it clean and scrub it each spring. Towards the tenth or eleventh year it starts to get vulcanized where a distinct black chalk had formed and took extra scrubbing during the spring. The spring cleaning took care of it, though, so kids would still use it. If I was going to do it again I'd integrate a drain for sure!

jarrod9155 · « **Reply #9 on:** October 05, 2010, 10:19:26 AM »

Well last night my cousin showed up with his glues and lap joints , uncured rubber and seam joint and a water base glue and a solvent base primer . We started by laying the big piece in as one witch was 6 feet by 10 so the only seams would be on the front and back wall . Before laying any of the rubber down we applied a glue on the rubber and the foam board so it would actually be bonded to the walls and floor . And on all the seams the inside patch or inseam is 6 inches and the outside is also 6 inches . And the corners he hand makes out of uncored rubber very flexable but anyway it makes a nice corner with a small pig ear flap that gets glued down and another two pieces get llaid over that making three layer of protection he says on jobs that just two is used on roofs
to be warranted buy the manufacture mule pruducts every job he does or roof job has to inspected buy a rep from the company to be warranted and he hasnt had any problems plus he teaches this pruduct line at a local tech school . But I still hold alittle worry about leaks and so on ,but it does look really proffesional and it lays over the top sill really nice making for a great seal . I guess like anything we do diy or green projects you have to go out on limb I will keep you guys updated on it so far Im really happy .

GaryGary · « **Reply #10 on:** October 05, 2010, 10:23:15 AM »

Quote from: jarrod9155 on October 05, 2010, 10:19:26 AM

Well last night my cousin showed up with his glues and lap joints , uncured rubber and seam joint and a water base glue and a solvent base primer . We started by laying the big piece in as one witch was 6 feet by 10 so the only seams would be on the front and back wall . Before laying any of the rubber down we applied a glue on the rubber and the foam board so it would actually be bonded to the walls and floor . And on all the seams the inside patch or inseam is 6 inches and the outside is also 6 inches . And the corners he hand makes out of uncored rubber very flexable but anyway it makes a nice corner with a small pig ear flap that gets glued down and another two pieces get llaid over that making three layer of protection he says on jobs that just two is used on roofs
to be warranted buy the manufacture mule pruducts every job he does or roof job has to inspected buy a rep from the company to be warranted and he hasnt had any problems plus he teaches this pruduct line at a local tech school . But I still hold alittle worry about leaks and so on ,but it does look really proffesional and it lays over the top sill really nice making for a great seal . I guess like anything we do diy or green projects you have to go out on limb I will keep you guys updated on it so far Im really happy .

Sounds like you really did a good job on this.
Did you take any pictures that you could pass on?

Gary

jarrod9155 · « **Reply #11 on:** October 05, 2010, 12:16:01 PM »

Sure did what i will do email to you gary I have yet to figure out how to post them to the furom .

Bruce S · « **Reply #12 on:** October 05, 2010, 03:19:11 PM »

Quote from: jarrod9155 on October 05, 2010, 12:16:01 PM

Sure did what i will do email to you gary I have yet to figure out how to post them to the forum .

Pass onto Gary his contact info too, if we the DIY folks, have installers that are that thorough.
It would be a good to have a resource close to you other could rely on

.

Looking forward to seeing the pics too.
Cheers
Bruce S
PS Posting is fairly easy now. The main thing is to make sure you see the image1 image2...

jarrod9155 · « **Reply #13 on:** October 05, 2010, 04:09:37 PM »

Here we go First try at adding a photo

Inserted photo for you.
remember to do one attachement at a time and make sure it shows up before inserting another.
You will not be able to "see" the photo, but you will see the 'attach..=1 and so on.

jarrod9155 · « **Reply #14 on:** October 05, 2010, 04:12:20 PM »

One more

jarrod9155 · « **Reply #15 on:** October 05, 2010, 04:17:02 PM »

A picture of one of the panels I have seven total going up

Thanks Bruce S for the hint on the posting pictures
Couple of Bruce's on here

and they're all much smarter than I

jarrod9155 · « **Reply #16 on:** October 06, 2010, 10:11:37 AM »

Finished the last wall last night came out nice after we added a a lap calking over all the seams for even more added protection the whole process took about 7 hour I added some photos showing the corners being made every corner had about 3 layer for added support .

Bruce S · « **Reply #17 on:** October 06, 2010, 10:18:29 AM »

Those are looking good and strong.
What is the size of this puppy?
Near as I can make out is 8'L x 4'H x 40inches Wide..
Knowing the dems the total gallon capacity can be guess-to-mated
Bruce S

jarrod9155 · « **Reply #18 on:** October 06, 2010, 12:17:42 PM »

It started 4 feet wide and 4 feet deep and 6 feet long add 2 inches of foam and then your minus 2 inches around . I figured it out to be around 370 galloons . This will be supported by 7 3 by 8 full copper panels 168 square feet of panels with glass glazing .

MattM · « **Reply #19 on:** October 08, 2010, 11:05:12 AM »

I realize the sides are glued in, but what keeps the outside edges from contracting as it shrinks in the future? In roofing the outside perimeter is typically nailed off every four inches with a metal strip or flashing called a termination bar. You can use wood, too. I would suggest you use some kind of termination to prevent problems with shrinkage in the future. You just want something to clamp down the perimeter so as to keep the rubber from eventually pulling away along the outside edges. The weight of the water will actually keep it from coming free from the bottom and sides.

jarrod9155 · « **Reply #20 on:** October 09, 2010, 08:50:46 AM »

I should have the tank finish this weekend and Ill post some photos showing

hydrosun · « **Reply #21 on:** October 09, 2010, 12:53:09 PM »

How did you get your estimate for gallons? There are over 7 gallons per cubic foot. 4 by 4 by 6 is 96 times 7 is 670 gallons. I know you have some loss for insulation but not 300 gallons.
Chris

MattM · « **Reply #22 on:** October 09, 2010, 10:15:36 PM »

7.48 gallons per cubic feet. Looks like he gave external measurements. Wall thickness would be approx. 8 inches, leaving 32 inches by 56 inches. I wonder if the floor is the same construction. That would get you down below 400 gallons.

tomtank · « **Reply #23 on:** October 12, 2010, 10:35:06 AM »

EPDM does breakdown if exposed to high temperature water. Over 170F is an issue, below that it will have reasonable life expectancy.
IF EPDM starts to break down, it will attack any copper heat exchangers in the tank.
We use a custom PVC alloy that is rated for 180F continuous.

Tom in Maine
Commercial link removed

jarrod9155 · « **Reply #24 on:** October 12, 2010, 12:07:07 PM »

Tom in maine this jarrod in Maine nice to see other people in Maine that visit the site . well im know about the 170 degree max temp . If I can get 10 years out of it im happy , most likely I will buy then came up with some other design to make it more efficent . Thanks for the heads up on the epdm breaking down and atacking the copper will keep and eye on that my max temp will be set to 150 160 depending on how well it heats up the water .

jarrod9155 · « **Reply #25 on:** October 12, 2010, 12:28:24 PM »

I recomend any one looking in to tanks to check out toms site really nice looking tanks theres and other options to epdm . Wish I would of seen it sooner .
Jarrod

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Author Topic: Epdm tank liner (Read 11752 times)