Author Topic: Wind to Heat  (Read 7326 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

jenkinswt

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 105
  • Country: us
Wind to Heat
« on: January 19, 2011, 08:49:24 PM »
Okay I have lurked around on here and the otherpower for years and I did have a account here but either I forgot my user id or it got deleted. I had only made a few posts and got busy and haven't been logging in for awhile. Anyways just wanted to say hey. I will be moving this spring and want to start a few projects if I can afford it on the old house we bought.

I have really been researching heating water with wind and trying to get ideas if its feasible or not. I have looked at everything from friction, cavitation, electric with heating elements and still haven't decided. I was originally thinking of building an outdoor wood burner with a larger water reservoir but the area has alot of wind and not alot of trees so even though I have heated with wood all my life I am looking into some other possibilities. I went to builditsolar.com and filled out a heating loss estimate. I have had it down as low as 25,000 btus/hr to a little over 40,000 btus/hr depending on how much money I spend on insulating, etc.

The house is a fixer upper so its a perfect time to do some good sealing and insulating and better windows which should help. It looks like its in a wind zone 4, its always windy there. Now I know I am throwing alot of information out there and there might be some flaws to my thinking but I was thinking if I installed radiant baseboard heaters in the house like I was going to anyways with the outdoor wood boiler and took a large tank and insulated it to basically be my heat battery and dump heat from the wind generator in it could possibly work. I would probably install a wood stove in the house for backup. A 20 foot wind generator probably isn't big enough right? I am sure its more efficient to create heat as directly from the wind as possible but feasibly would it be cheaper to create a large alternator and dump the heat into heating elements? It might even be simpler because those cavitation heaters look complicated to build and in the experimental stages right now, also difficult to setup with a hawt.

I know some of you have experimented with heating water mainly as a dump load but if you were going to do it directly for heat how would you do it? I was thinking if I could average 5 kwhs/17,060 btus of heat an hour I should be able to heat it an the coldest of days. Also I forgot to mention the land is completely flat and there are 5 acres, all the land around it for miles is flat. Seems crazy for me not to build at least a wind generator to provide a little electricity if this isn't feasible/sensible.

Thanks for any input,
Tom

MattM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1178
  • Country: us
Re: Wind to Heat
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2011, 10:15:52 PM »
OT - Is it feasible to build a wind blocking, sloped wall that doubles as a Solar flat plate collector?  Solar heat is hard to beat.

jenkinswt

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 105
  • Country: us
Re: Wind to Heat
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2011, 10:25:34 PM »
Well I think solar would be great but this will be in South Dakota and I don't think it would be worth the time considering cloudy cold days wouldn't produce that much heat. I don't have any experience with solar collectors but doubtful they would ever heat the house.

I am starting to think along the lines of taking a really big steel tank like 1-2,000 gallons if I can find one cheap enough. Recess on one end a firebox to burn wood. Then possibly use the wind to heat the water. I would use the wood as hopefully just a backup source or when its really cold out. I don't even know if this would work out with the wind to heat but there is just way too much power there blowing past in the winter. I don't think I would even need a big tower, basically enough to get up higher than the house. The tank would be insulated and an enclosure built over it.

If I can come up with 180 degree water the rest of the heating system would be straight forward. I will still be on the grid but maybe eventually I will get off of it. Heating is always a big expense or labor and it would be worth a pretty good amount of effort to build a solid system to produce heat from wind. I have read some articles where there was some research done on this and some even built but  not much information about anything.

B529

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 190
Re: Wind to Heat
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2011, 09:01:33 AM »
An average output of 5000 watts is a huge number to hit.

Looking at the math, say you can get a turbine up at 100' or so and average 14mph during the winter months. A very efficient turbine might produce 4.5 watts per square foot of swept area. You would need a turbine with a diameter of 38' or about swept area of 1100'. 13mph average, 42' diameter, 1400' swept area.

The wife's family is from south central South Dakota, been there several times, ya', there ain't much sun during the winter. Excellent state for wind.

If you have wood to burn off your land, a wood burning outdoor furnace like a Central Boiler could be an option.

jenkinswt

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 105
  • Country: us
Re: Wind to Heat
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2011, 09:27:34 AM »
Well ya I actually looked at central boiler wood stoves and was going to copy the 6048 in design as much as possible but there isn't much wood there. I might be able to scrounge up enough during the summer if I run some ads. I wonder what say a 25' mill could put out and the best way to go about designing it to produce electricity for just heat? The cheaper the better as far as building but I wonder if it could be setup without a controller and wired directly to heating elements if everything is sized correctly. I would have to ask alot of questions on here I am sure when it comes to designing the alternator, picking out elements, deciding if I need a controller and how to go about that.

I think I like the idea of a large water storage tank with a pretty basic firebox recessed into it. That gives me the option to at least go out and throw some wood into it and produce some additional heat or all of the heat. I really would prefer to build just one wind generator but lets say I build a mill at 20-25' or bigger? Then it actually starts producing a substantial amount of heat but not enough. Then next year or a few years down the road I add a second one and maybe can get the additional heat I need and possibly some electrcity. I am thinking long term on the project and don't mind limping along a few seasons experimenting. I like the idea or the 17-20' mills that have been replicated here so much because it takes alot of the guess work out of building one. I actually made some wooden blades a few years ago but got busy and haven't done anything with them. I decided that the 14' diameter wasn't what I wanted plus was planning to move and didn't want to setup a windmill here.

Would I need bigger heating elements than what is available for water heaters? I know they have some large wattage ones so maybe they are fine. I read something about going 3 phase directly to the elements and trying to balance the load on all 3 phases? Well I am talking past my expertise now so I will wait to hear some input. Thanks so far everyone.

poco dinero

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 123
Re: Wind to Heat
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2011, 09:38:10 AM »
Okay, let's do a little math here.

You want to heat 2000 gallons (16,000 pounds) of water from, say, 50 degrees F to 180 degrees F. 

1 Btu (British thermal unit) will heat 1 lb of water 1 degree F.

To heat 16000 lbs of water 130 degrees you will need 2,080,000 Btus of energy.

A 5 kw wind turbine is a pretty big residential wind turbine.  If it puts out 5 kw continously it would produce 17,062 Btus in one hour.  If it puts out 5 kw 24/7, it would take 122 hours for that 5 kw wind turbine to heat 16000 lbs of water from 50 degrees F to 180 degrees F.  All this assumes no losses, i.e., your water tank is perfectly insulated, you have huge wires from the turbine to the water tank, the wind blows 25 mph 24 hours a day, etc.

The above analysis applies to the initial startup of your system.

Let's say you got it up and running, waited five days and you now have 16000 lbs of water at 180 degrees F.  Now you want to start using it.  You have 2,080,000 Btus of energy stored in that water.

You say you can get your heat loss down to 40,000 Btu/hour.  I suspect that figure is a little low, but we'll use it.

The old 5 kw wind turbine can only put out 17,062 Btu/hour, so you would need three of them to supply your heating needs, even under ideal conditions.  In reality you would probably need at least six of them, because they wouldn't put out 5 kw all the time unless your wind blows 25 mph 24 hours a day.

If you want to go this way, I know where you can get the 5 kw wind turbines for $1500 apiece.

Since you don't have many trees, you're going to be spending a lot of money on firewood.

poco






electrondady1

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3120
  • Country: ca
Re: Wind to Heat
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2011, 09:39:06 AM »
around here the heating season lasts from sometime in September to sometime in May.
there is a certain poetry / logic to use the chilly winds to heat your house.
danb, our host , builds some very large mills.
 if i can remember correctly something like 3-4kw.

for the most part battery charging is the goal.
 the batteries hold the voltage of the alternator down to their level.
that can lead to some very high amperage.
and that can lead to a lot of heat being lost in the stater.

if you are building a mill dedicated to resistance heating it is better to let the voltage rise .

a 1,000 watt base board heater is only drawing 4 amps.

one of the hurdles that needs to be addressed is finding a way to allow the wind turbine to start under load.
and as wind speed increases to add more load .
from what i understand resistance heaters operate just as well with dc as ac
by rectifying the output the currant from multiple alternators can be blended together.

zubbly started working with capacitors as a control method but regrettably has passed away.
janne is l working on controll systems.
daveb used wind to heat hot water tanks.
ontfarmer runs heaters with his mill.
there are probably a lot more.

even here  in Canada we don't heat all the time so some thought should be given to what to do with the juice  when your not heating.

good luck
« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 09:43:08 AM by electrondady1 »

MattM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1178
  • Country: us
Re: Wind to Heat
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2011, 09:55:25 AM »
Even if you're latitude is high enough where you only average 600 BTU a square foot per hour for five hours a day you're going to find it difficult to beat solar heat.  You could drive a heat pump with wind energy if you're that set on using wind.  Cloudy days are less productive for heating, true, but they work for people all the way up to Canada.  You live in an agricultural setting I take it, there is also the biogas and biomass options.  Burn biogas for heating your water tank 24/7 or use piles of biomass to heat with.  Wind just isn't cost effective for heating. 

And you would need to get your turbine 100 foot off the ground to get the energy people are citing here.  Thirty foot tall wind mills are considerably less effective. Your best bet is to visit Gary's site on alternative energy and look at his extensive list of plans people have implemented over the years.

jenkinswt

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 105
  • Country: us
Re: Wind to Heat
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2011, 10:03:54 AM »
Thanks for the replies everyone. I won't buy firewood, never have never will. I will put the work into cutting, splitting, burning it but not purchase it. I have sold it but would pay for gas before I paid for wood. Now I can get some wood off the property and can possibly get some from other people but the less I need to go find the better. I couldn't see needing 6 mills that put out an average of 5 kw that would be 30 kw per hour. I have heated before with strictly electric heat one winter and don't think I ever used that kind of electricity per hour and our place is very leaky. That would be like spending 86.00 per day on electricity at .12 per kw. I know there losses in the alternator, cable, etc. etc. but can't see needing that kind of heat output. Also with the large water reservoir and heating with an occasional batch of wood I could probably throw some serious btus in there if the wood is properly seasoned. Anyways I am sure your right whatever I build won't heat the house completely but that would be my long term goal along with super insulating.

I think the radiant heat coming right from the floor could use less heat since I could keep the house a little cooler having my feet warm. I am so used to it getting hot inside burning wood and having a cold floor but again our house we live in now is very leaky.

I am not dismissing anyones figures and will try not to be stubborn about it. I appreciate any input on this.

MattM it just showed your post as I was typing this, I will look into the solar heat because 600 btus per square foot would be impressive.

ghurd

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 8059
Re: Wind to Heat
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2011, 10:10:39 AM »
Running Poco's numbers with 12.5MPH would give some even more surprising results.
G-
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

jenkinswt

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 105
  • Country: us
Re: Wind to Heat
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2011, 10:42:55 AM »
How efficient is it to turn the wind into electricity compared to possibly directly as possible to heat? Would a cavitation heater produce better heat or possibly a cavitation heater? These cavitation heaters seem to be under design stages more than anyone using them but windstuffnow had a post somewhere on here where he built a small one. I know these are made to operate at much higher speed but instead of gearing it up one could be built larger diameter so it would almost be like the tsr on windmills where the outer edge is spinning much faster than the center.

I am just throwing out ideas for debate, I really can't see me designing something like a cavitation heater because it would cost too much.

I also found a guy named Loyd Tanner (not sure of spelling) that used wood to create a friction heater against a spinning metal hub and creating instant steam front it but again highly experimental compared to what I want to take on. I have to heat the house one way or another and it will probably be wood and whatever additional I could produce with wind would be a blessing. Maybe it could take over on chilly spring/fall days where I don't need a ton of heat. I agree some thought should be put into what to do during summer.

Tom

dwragon

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 12
Re: Wind to Heat
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2011, 01:21:24 PM »
How much square footage are you actually going to heat in the winter? You need to base exactly what you need off of what you are going to heat. In winter, I only heat my bedroom at night, and my living space during the day, with 40 degrees being the point that my heaters come on at night. yea, I walk around the house in winter in long sleeve wind breakers, but I haven't gotten the flu or a major cold in ten years because of bodily accimation. Also, look at radiant heat through the floor, this can be done cheaply with plywood layed on top of a floor (I did this with my travel trailer, used my hot water heater and an electric pump.). As for wind generation, look at my windmill design posted in this forum. Its cheap to build. So far I have spent zero dollars on it other than gas to gather materials.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2011, 01:23:58 PM by dwragon »

piglet2

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 52
Re: Wind to Heat
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2011, 02:35:47 PM »
Look, if You are connected to the grid, there is absolutely no idea to use wind for direct water heating.

You should have a wind turbine and a grid tie inverter.

Then You could use a heatpump with a COP of around 4 and get around four times the wattage Your turbine gives in heat.

I am using that method and I am very happy with it. 

During the summer when I do not need to heat water, I can use the power for other things.

/Piglet

ontfarmer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
  • Country: ca
Re: Wind to Heat
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2011, 03:16:06 PM »
i use my 20' turbine to power three 240 volt ac base board heaters.  The turbine does not start under load it is controlled by three voltage control switches as wind speed changes the heaters are turned on or off one at a time. This is a three phase 120 volt per phase. I use this to help heat the house. As
Dan said it produces power in low winds. If i am getting a 30 km wind the furnace does not come on but the wind is unrealiable. This could be powering water heating elements but you have to remember
you cannot get out more than is being put in.
                                                           Grant

piglet2

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 52
Re: Wind to Heat
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2011, 03:46:43 PM »
Well, with a heatpump You can get out more than is put in.  Much more!
Not electricity but heat.

Geothermal heatpumps give generally 3-4 times the wattage.

/Piglet

ontfarmer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
  • Country: ca
Re: Wind to Heat
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2011, 05:33:46 PM »
I thought the topic here was Wind to Heat?
                                                     Grant

TomW

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 5130
  • Country: us
Re: Wind to Heat
« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2011, 05:37:24 PM »
I thought the topic here was Wind to Heat?
                                                     Grant

Wind>>Electricity>>run heatpump

Could be grid tie or battery system but it is wind to heat.

Pretty simple really.

Tom

Rover

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 788
Re: Wind to Heat
« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2011, 05:48:29 PM »
Quoting TomW  - doing the old fashioned way.. hate the smal print

"Wind>>Electricity>>run heatpump"

Simpler!, Easier to control ... use stock equipment. Still takes a little DIY on the power in side, but not near as much as trying to regulate water temp output  from a DIY source.

I really hate to add this bit, but you are currently on grid right ? why the switch, I hope its not cost savings

 
Rover
<Where did I bury that microcontroller?>

jenkinswt

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 105
  • Country: us
Re: Wind to Heat
« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2011, 06:29:48 PM »
I guess I am not familiar enough with heat pumps but was under the impression the colder the climate the less efficient. Are they the same thing as geothermal? I've heard before that its cheaper to stay on the gird, etc. than producing your own. That may be but I have and endless list of reasons (excuses?) why I would like to be off grid down the road. It might be really expensive to hire someone to say come in and install a complete solar/wind system to be off grid but if a person is building it themselves and is fairly handy at scrounging up used materials that are basically the same as new I think the cost comes way down.

I know its cheaper to lower electrical loads which I have done. At one point I had our electric bill down to 20.00 one month but it was just about miserable. We had a chest freezer converted to a fridge, no dryer (haven't had in years) heating with wood and made a wood water heater to replace the electric one. We also had a gas cookstove. I guess the only thing that was miserable was the chest freezer, not handy at all with 2 kids. Also the water heater was pretty good but needing some more tweaking. But this isn't about cost of electricity, I will probably stay on the grid for awhile but I am more worried about heating than anything else. I am going to look into building something for collecting some solar heat along with my other plans because today was really sunny and cold but I was surprised how much heat the sun was producing.  I also am used to closing up rooms or parts of the house that were not needing when its cold. With the hydronic heating I could cut the heat way down to where we really need it.

I really would like to hear more about that 20' mill hooked to 3 heaters. How is that helping with your heating? What kind of an area do you live in? Now I know I am a newbie here so all my ideas probably sound off the wall but hear me out and critique where necessary. What if I build some nice 30' diameter blades and a nice beefy tower. What would be my best bet for an alternator, motor conversion? I will do some calculating sometime to figure out how much power that could possibly produce. I am sure I would want to go ac power out, I wonder what size of wire I would need to handle the load. I don't know what range of voltages I could expect but would be shooting for 240 volt or less right? If I go over 240 volts I wonder if that burns out a heating element or if its strictly on current not voltage?

As far as tower I was thinking of not going real big at first and making it pretty easy to tilt up and down to be able to tweak it. Ontfarmer do you have any information on the control switches that you used?

I am sure you see posts like this all the time by new people and I can't guarantee something won't change my mind at the last second and I don't build something but I am at least seriously considering buidling it and will a little money to start it.

Dave B

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1014
  • Country: 00
    • DCB Energy Systems
Re: Wind to Heat
« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2011, 06:43:46 PM »
Yes, at 12.5 MPH constant wind speed he would be generating 8 times less power than the constant 25 MPH calculated. Direct electric heating works but the numbers don't lie, I pre-heated water for quite a while with my machine until I changed over to 24vdc.  Dave B.

Running Poco's numbers with 12.5MPH would give some even more surprising results.
G-
DCB Energy Systems
http://dcbenergy.com/

jenkinswt

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 105
  • Country: us
Re: Wind to Heat
« Reply #20 on: January 20, 2011, 07:15:19 PM »
The only thing about that math that I am wondering about is how much will the windmill actually produce? How much would a 30' mill produce. I just threw that 5 kw average figure out there not what I actually expected to see. Now if I had a mill that was producing 5 kw at 25 mph then yes I see where that makes sense. But if I am averaging 5 kw which don't know if its possible with a 30' mill or not then that would be like saying I am seeing a lot higher and and a lot lower than 5 kw at times. Anyways that 5 kw really isn't a figure I should be tossing around since I don't even know what it would realistically produce. Also if I was using electric heat and was paying for 5 kw consistently that would be like 15 dollars a day so I don't think I actually need 40000 btus per hour non stop? That is alot of heat. This was also designed with the coldest day in mind about -20 it can get colder but typically thats the coldest it gets in a year. Using that design and adding as much insulation as I want it showed as low as 25,000 btus.

As mentioned above I also wouldn't be heating every inch of the house and would block off areas if it gets miserably cold out. I just think there has to be some potential using the wind and hydronic heat. The reason for the large tank is simply like using a big battery but cheaper. It might take alot to heat it up, that just means it takes awhile to cool it back down. One guy that made his own outdoor wood boiler had 1200 gallons of insulated water storage and was gone for 5 days when it was in the 40's. He set his thermostat to 60 and had his water I think 185 or 195. When he got back in 5 days it was only down to 135 degrees. That seems pretty decent to me. I just think there are a lot of variables here that come in to play.

I hope noone gets the impression that I am dismissing your thoughts on this because I am here to learn. I am interested in hearing any idea for heating. I don't care how I stay warm as long as I don't go broke every winter for it.

WindriderNM

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 232
  • Country: us
  • some days you get the bear some days the gets you
    • WindriderNM
Re: Wind to Heat
« Reply #21 on: January 20, 2011, 08:16:38 PM »
Solar heat can be built very cheap especially if you can scrounge the materials. 
~~~WindriderNM (Electron Recycler)~~~   
~~~Keep Those Electrons Flowing~~~

jenkinswt

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 105
  • Country: us
Re: Wind to Heat
« Reply #22 on: January 20, 2011, 08:19:24 PM »
I have been looking around a bit to try and find some information on colder climate setup that heats a house. I keep getting sidetracked and reading other stuff though:)

birdhouse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 919
  • Country: us
  • Portland, OR USA
Re: Wind to Heat
« Reply #23 on: January 20, 2011, 09:22:53 PM »
jenkins-
i like some of your ideas.  i'm not the smartest person on here, but a 30' mill is pretty freaking big for a DIY.  let alone the tower to get it high enough to get into clean air, and support the variety and intense forces a 30' mill will put on a tower.  i don't believe anyone on this site has even built a mill of that size.  20' seems to be max.  i think the standard furling tail becomes so long on larger mills, that it doesn't react fast enough in gusty conditions to properly keep the mill together.  i don't know you technical background, and maybe you are capable of building a mill of this size that is safe, and performs well.  i just know i wouldn't want to try build something like that without following a tried and true design that has been done many times by others.  

didn't you say that you started a 14 footer?  maybe it would be good to finish and install it on your place to get a better idea of how often the mill will be at peak verses nothing and everthing in between.    start with a smaller tank matched to this mill.  you could have it heating water in the end as well with your other mills all working in unison.  

as far a tank size.  it is all about finding the right balance.  use the formulas that poco gave above to do some calcs.  it's kind of similar to putting a 10 watt solar panel on a 1,000 AH battery bank.  the panel may not even keep up with the banks self discharge rate.  this is very close to your wind mill possibly not even being able to put enough heat into a big tank, verses the amount of heat lost through your insulation around the tank.  

just got a work call, so gotta run, but wanted to post what i did get typed out!

adam

poco dinero

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 123
Re: Wind to Heat
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2011, 08:36:16 AM »
Quote
I have an endless list of reasons (excuses?) why I would like to be off grid down the road.

Hope you haven't ruled out selling your treeless place and buying a piece of land where there is no grid but lots of trees.  My place is only 12 acres but it has an essentially infinite supply of firewood.  If it didn't, I'd move to an off grid, well-treed property.  Wish I had done that in the first place.  The land would've been cheaper, taxes cheaper, etc.

Moving isn't near as hard or expensive as putting up a 30 foot diameter wind turbine.  Just a thought.

poco

jenkinswt

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 105
  • Country: us
Re: Wind to Heat
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2011, 12:56:46 PM »
Yeah for now I have ruled out selling the place. I got a good price on the place and besides for a few hurdles its exactly what I was looking for. I wish I had timber but oh well. I do have 5 acres that is tillable ground that is all hooked into more farm ground. A farmer has been renting it and I have considered seeing if I could work out a deal on corn for heating as well as for feeding chickens but I would rather use the land myself down the road. I doubt he would exchange much corn for rental anyways on 5 acres. Everyone I know that has a corn burner has been disappointed because of the price of corn and the way they operate also.

ontfarmer

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 198
  • Country: ca
Re: Wind to Heat
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2011, 01:17:08 PM »
I built my 20' turbine very much like Danb built his which the details at on this site. I made the rotors a bit  bigger and wound the coils to get higher voltage. My tower is 70' and is a tilt up. The heaters are turned on as wind speed -  voltage increases eg. # 1 135v #2 175v #3 190v when the voltage decreases they are turned off at #3 175v #2 135v #1 85v this done with the voltage control switches that are ajustable. The turbine supplies a lot of the heat for the house depending on the
wind. I live 25 km north of London Ontario Canada. The switches were obtained from
solarconverters.com   thanks to Hugh Piggot. I hope this of some help.
                                                                                         Grant

jenkinswt

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 105
  • Country: us
Re: Wind to Heat
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2011, 01:40:50 PM »
Yes Ontfarmer that was alot of help. Thank you

jenkinswt

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 105
  • Country: us
Re: Wind to Heat
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2011, 01:58:25 PM »
Also when I was looking around for information on 30' windmills that were ready made I found one that claims to put out 20 kw at about 26 mph. I know that is a fair amount of wind and not typical but I have seen days where it blows like that or more non stop. It was a 60,000 dolar mill! It would be hard to justify the cost but that could be a fun project over several years to build. I don't think a large water reservoir would be a bad idea when I would be drawing a large amount of heat from it non stop whether it be wood or wind producing the heat to the water.

Here is what I am coming up with so far:

Insulation:
Attic r50-60
Floor r30-40
Walls r20-30 (considering the mooney wall with blown insulation)

Newer windows not the most expensive but decent
Window Quilts, I found a site on those last night, I think we would try to make our own
New front and back door
Seal up any air drafts we can.

Outdoor wood boiler with provisions to add the wind powered heat down the road.
As far as finding wood we have some to start with but won't be cutting any trees that we want to keep, I plan on asking neighbors, running ads on craigslist, and hang some flyers up or a in a newspaper offering to help clean up dead trees, etc. Also I have a trailer and whenever I visit my family from time to time through the year they have timber that I could cut into logs and load onto the trailer to haul home and work up.

As far as delivering the heat to the house we will be using hydronic baseboard heaters. To start with the first winter we will just put them in the main rooms we use and close up others. The kitchen, living room, bathroom, and 2 bedrooms will be what we heat. After a winter we will have an idea of the amount of heat necessary.

I have a feeling that I will burn through money pretty fast doing all of this and might not get very far on the mill but would like to start designing a system for heat from wind. I think its a viable option with a well insulated house in a windy area. Any little bit has to help. I hope to maybe get somewhere on the windmill this year but I am also trying to be realistic. I still would appreciate any input as to the best way to design an alternator for this, heating elements to handle it, etc. That 30' mill I found also said it put out I think 25 kw before it shuts down. Would a mill like this be able to use a tail or would it have to have another way to furl it?

ghurd

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 8059
Re: Wind to Heat
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2011, 02:29:27 PM »
Look for unbiased reviews of outdoor wood boilers from people who had wood heat before and used the boilers for more than 2 years, before getting to far into it.
I am told some guys are using 3X the wood they used in a regular wood burner, and they can smoke like crazy under many conditions. The people who told me that are not happy.

About the 30' windmill.  I suggest finding one to go look at in real life.
They are bigger in person than they look.
G-
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

TomW

  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *******
  • Posts: 5130
  • Country: us
Re: Wind to Heat
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2011, 02:49:39 PM »
What ghurd sed...

EVERYONE
[8 or 9 folks] I know that installed one is disappointed in theirs. Excess fuel consumption, smoky as hell and a poor performance / burning profile.

Do your research.

It does keep the mess outside but there are issues with them they don't mention during the "sell" period.

Just about the time they are running an efficient burn the damned things shut off the burn air. This makes a smoldering fire that is wasted.

If I had to use one I would triple the storage with a tank of water in the house and alter the burn profile so you could use a whole charge of wood in one burn.

Just what I see. I don't have one myself.

Tom

jenkinswt

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 105
  • Country: us
Re: Wind to Heat
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2011, 03:02:01 PM »
I have come across the same thing, in fact my wife knows a guy that has one and hates it. Every time I drive by there its smoking. I get on outdoorwoodfurnaceinfo.com and have read alot around there. I went over and looked at central boilers in person and have read alot of reviews on them. They seem pretty decent. Now a gasifier model would be ideal but since I am building myself I am not going to get too creative. I have seen a hardy in person and talked to the guy and he was pretty pleased, he said the guy that installed it didn't use insulated lines to the house so it uses a lot of wood. I think the biggest problem is when people are buying them they often look at price not anything else. If you have a small water capacity or uninsulated lines it seems to reason that it wouldn't work too good. I am hoping that it would rarely need to cut off the air to the burn chamber if I use the large water capacity that I am talking about. I should be able to burn a nice long hot fire and then refire it before it goes clear out. Thats basically how I burn now even though its inside. You hardly ever see smoke coming from my chimney.

I can imagine a 30' is a real animal in person. Just the 14' blades I made were pretty impressive. I am thinking I would paint everything black to help shed ice. I had painted the blades I made red mainly for appearance. I wonder though if there is a reason why the commercial units are all white?

B529

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 190
Re: Wind to Heat
« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2011, 05:04:26 PM »
A source for firewood will be your city maintenance department, especially after an ice storm. That's how my brother-in-law in SD gets his free wood. Probably worth the effort to call the maintenance departments of all the surrounding towns.

Wouldn't be a bad idea to check with your local building inspector/planner regarding any tower height restriction, what's required to put up a tower, permit, engineering stamp.....

A few turbine manufacturer do offer blades in black for icing reasons, Bergey, Proven come to mind.

My brother-in-law bought an old farm house. He ripped the siding off and wrapped the house with 2" sheets of "pink board", R10. Re-sided with cement siding. He says it made a huge difference in how his home performs.

Where in SD are you?