12v to 120/240v invertors

[TheEquineFencer]

I found a 115HP DSL engine I'm probably going back to pick up. I'm thinking of using the engine as a power source for multiple applications. I'm thinking I'd like to run a high output 12V alernator off it to charge a battery bank and use an invertor to power my lighter loads in  my shop such as the Metal haylides and FL lighting and such through an invertor and maybe my computer. I'd like some recommindatons of where here in the USA to get a decent inverter and what I need to look for. I'm probably going to do a dual fuel conversion on the DSL to use straight WVO when I run the system as I just found source for free. I can get 10-20 gallons of oil each week. The plan is to heat the oil to around 170* and switch it over from DSL to WVO and before shutdown switch back. I'm open to suggestions.

[bob g]

just to clarify a point

dual fuel mode in a diesel engine means burning two fuels at the same time
usually one gaseous and the other liquid, such as diesel with natural gas or propane, or veggie oil with producer gas, etc.

bi fuel operation means the ability to burn one fuel or another, such as diesel or veggie oil in standard diesel operation.

in dual fuel mode the engine uses the liquid fuel (diesel or veggie oil) as a pilot ignition source and the engine then operates very similarly to a spark ignition engine.

bi fuel mode the engine uses one fuel or another and retains the characteristic of a compression ignition engine.

as for you question, if all you are providing for is lighting, then there are a variety of modified square wave (also known as modified sine wave) inverters on the market that would probably do just fine. companies like aims, xantrex, being two that make robust units that seem to not only get the job done but do so day in and day out for a very long time.

most common are those that are fed 12 volts are the 120vac output units, not sure how many that produce 240vac, and probably very few that produce both voltages at the same time.

not saying they don't exist i just am not aware of any that do both,

if you are going to setup something like this, you might be better served to go with a 24vdc alternator and inverter system. and forget messing around with some small case high output alternator, go straight to the large frame truck alternators or the very large frame coach alternators to start with.  be sure to provide for additional cooling by virtue of ducting in more cooler air anyway you can. don't count on the alternator to produce full rated output for long periods of time, no matter what the manufactures claims are, best to figure on about 2/3 of the rated output as a continuous rating. perhaps a bit more than that if you can provide more cool air via some ducting and added fan.

ymmv
bob g

[TheEquineFencer]

I know with the large commercial generators I worked on Dual fuel ment it had the ability to run on two differant fuels. Example was one that had a primary source as Nat. gas, if it ran out of that it would switch to run on it's secondary supply source, usually Propane. It used a pair of pressure switches to tell if had lost the fuel pressure from the Nat Gas and switched to Propane automaticaly. I thought about using higher DC input I but I have several small and large frame 12V HO alternators in the 190A- 250A range available. I even thought about trying to run down an alternator from an airplane, they are really large 24VDC high output. I figured I'd run the DSL engine until I had the WVO up to temp and switch to the WVO and charge the battery bank, then just run off the batteries, then switch back to DSL to "clean the fuel system out" and then shutdown. That way I did not have to run the engine all the time. I thought about using a regular 120/240 1PH generator end but the cost was rather high, and I may later one after I figure a cheap way to build a governor control to hold it at 60HZ as the load changes. I know some RVs had invertors that would do 120/240, I've just not found one yet. My concern is the sine wave if I run the computer on it, the cleaner the wave the better off I'll be I'm sure. I have a guy that's supposed to be getting me some free or close to batteries from some DC powered large commercial forklifts and "tuggers" that can be connected for differant voltages. Enough of them the reserve capacity is going to be kind of funny. If he comes through, as long as I do not turn on my lathe or Mill I'll be OK. They are 3PH and run off a VFD that is rated for 1PH input and 3PH output at 5HP full load, my biigest motor is 2HP.  I'm only running around 20A-30A surge at startup with them and around 3A-8A running. In reality, I'll probably leave them on grid power. The only invertors I've ever used myself are the really small ones in the 100W-500W range in my snow plow truck to run a laptop and printer. It has a HO alternator I added, 100A at idle 250A at 1800RPM at 60*. That's why I asked about the 120/240V range of invertors. I know most DC alternators are rated with an ambient temp of 60*, the output drops as the temp rises, but most of my time is going to be spent running off the battery power.

[TheEquineFencer]

Just to clarify...

A dual-fuel system maintains two paths for fuel injection. Two types of fuel are stored in the car, but only one is delivered to the engine at any given time. For example, a hybrid car might make use of both natural gas and regular gasoline. Either a manual switch or some type of automatic sensor will tell the fuel injection system which fuel should be used. This patent is an example of such a system (http://www.freepatentsonline. com/5379740.html).
A bi-fuel system, on the other hand, makes use of two fuels simultaneously. The most common form of this is an E85 compatible vehicle. A mixture of fuels, made up of 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline, is stored in a single tank. When fuel is injected into the engine, both the ethanol and gasoline arrive. They are mixed at a ratio that makes for optimal performance and efficiency.

Although it may seem like a minor distinction, there is a definite difference between the two types of systems. In a dual-fuel system, the engineer is attempting to make the car more efficient by adjusting to different situations. One fuel source may be more efficient for accelerating, for example, while another is more efficient for maintaining speed. With a bi-fuel system, the engineer is simply trying to deliver the best fuel possible to the vehicle. In this case, it happens to be a mixture of two simple fuels.

References
http://www.eer e.energy.gov/afdc/afv/conversi on101.html
http://www.freepaten tsonline.com/5379740.html

[bob g]

your definition may be correct for automobile spark ignition engine's however
it is incorrect when we are talking about a compression ignition engine (diesel)

a quick google turned up this
http://www.aqmd.gov/hb/2002/020637a.html

dual fuel operation as defined for a diesel engine is the use of two fuels, often times
compressed natural gas and the use of a small amount of diesel injected via the engine's injection system to initiate combustion.

dual fuel mode is widely accepted in the stationary compression ignition world as the use of two fuel simultaneously, generally natural gas and a pilot injection of diesel fuel.

now bi fuel or multi fuel operation in a diesel engine refers to the use of diesel, or veggie oil, or in some cases like military engines with special injectors, gasoline, aviation gas, jet A, kerosene or any other flammable liquid fuel that is injectable.
any of these used individually or separately define the engine as bi or multifuel mode engine's

because dual fuel mode in diesels go much further back that bi fuel gasoline engine's where there is a carb and a propane mixer for instance (on the latter), it would appear to me that the term "dual fuel" applied to gas engines was a misapplication of the term.
likely it started out as some sort of sales jargon that was never corrected because it really didn't matter or it was some clever marketing ploy to separate brand x bi fuel engine from our new brand y engine such as "look at our all new for 1986 dual fuel 5.7liter high torque engine's" or some other bullcrap.

anyway the point being if you are referring to a diesel engine, dual fuel will mean that you are using a gaseous fuel "and" a pilot injection of either diesel or some other liquid fuel (generally however it refers to diesel as the approved fuel)

all of the major diesel engine manufactures that make gensets use the same definition for dual fuel mode operation, check it out.

btw, diesel engine drive power generation, dual fuel mode operation, microcogeneration, and especially engine driven battery charging systems are something i specialize in.
this is why i suggested 24vdc as a good place to start, mainly because i  can show you how to increase the efficiency and output power of your system by 40% on the former and by nearly double on the latter.  both equate to a much lower fuel consumption per kwatt/hr of charging.

if you have any questions i would be most happy to help you anyway i can.

this forum has been so good to me over many years now, and i am only too happy to give back where i know i can be of help.

bob g

[TheEquineFencer]

Let me get the batteries from that guy and I'll get back with you. At present I may just run several small invertors on each circuit. I may be able to get some dirt cheap at the flea market for most of what I want to do. I've got another buddy with his A&P lic looking me an aircraft alternator.

[ghurd]

dirt cheap at the flea market

That's not the best idea.
Some use more than 1A doing nothing.
Some use a few 100 milliamps, even when they are off.
Some 350W inverters will not start a 100W incandescent bulb.
G-

[fabricator]

Very good inverters at good prices, they are used a lot in RVs and boats and such. Made in Taiwan very high quality, these inverters have a neutral bonded to the earth or chassis ground inside the inverter so they meet the NEC specs in that regard.
http://www.theinverterstore.com/

[TheEquineFencer]

They are about the best prices I've seen in a while, thanks.

[fabricator]

When you tall to the support department you are talking to an actual person in Nevada, not a person on the Indian sub continent named "Molly" or "Becky" or God forbid................"Peggy".