Author Topic: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.  (Read 242271 times)

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Steadfast

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #594 on: May 30, 2012, 04:44:49 PM »
........  :o
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 04:52:19 PM by Steadfast »
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sean_ork

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #595 on: May 30, 2012, 04:45:53 PM »
you might also wish to confirm which mill you are proposing these parts are for

the toy one or the adults one - both will require a different setup
NOT really, if the one is setup for ChrisO's unit , then from my calcs, it'll certainly handle the RED Delco.
The other one I would not call a toy. A toy one would be one you would buy from Edmond Scientific to teach kiddes and isn't much more than something that would sit on a table.
Even if it doesn't work as planned, it's still not something I would consider a toy.
JMO.
Bruce S

fitting a fully fledged all singing and dancing controller on the car alt mill, on the off chance a hurricane blows through, would be a waste of resource IMHO

Bruce S

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #596 on: May 30, 2012, 04:50:07 PM »
you might also wish to confirm which mill you are proposing these parts are for

the toy one or the adults one - both will require a different setup
NOT really, if the one is setup for ChrisO's unit , then from my calcs, it'll certainly handle the RED Delco.
The other one I would not call a toy. A toy one would be one you would buy from Edmond Scientific to teach kiddes and isn't much more than something that would sit on a table.
Even if it doesn't work as planned, it's still not something I would consider a toy.
JMO.
Bruce S

fitting a fully fledged all singing and dancing controller on the car alt mill, on the off chance a hurricane blows through, would be a waste of resource IMHO
I disagree, having an over built controller is much much safer than one under built.
In the off chance you know and can show something here please do.
Pics and calculations (numbers and math) are much better than one off criticism.
 
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Steadfast

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #597 on: May 30, 2012, 04:52:32 PM »
I am looking at buying these:
Q-JD10140S Plusrite 3451 - 100 Watt - T4 - DC Bayonet Base - Halogen - Clear - 2,000 Life Hours - 1,200 Lumens - 120 Volt   $1.53 each X10

  SATCO-901560 DC Bayonet Socket with Mounting Bracket - 500 Watt - 125 Volt - 9 in. Leads - Satco 90-1560 $3.42 each - Just one

and combining it with 3 (or 5)of these:

wired in series and all mounted somehow on a concrete brick plate on the outside of my shed...

If I rig up 5 of these their tempiture will be spread out, right???
EI: hotter with only 3, cooler for 5???

I still need these questions answered...thanks...
you guys can always edu-ma-fa-cate me about building a working and safe circuit....
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sean_ork

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #598 on: May 30, 2012, 04:52:45 PM »

Pics and calculations (numbers and math) are much better than one off criticism.

wasnt intended to be a critcism - just a comment based on expereince in one of the worlds windest places

I'll be happy to show some calcs if you could provide me with the output stats for the car alt  ::)

Bruce S

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #599 on: May 30, 2012, 04:53:56 PM »
Steadfast.
The biggest problem fab was trying to say about the bulbs is that they change as they get hot.
Better would be a 12Vdc muffin fan, the power curve is much flatter and you can see the power requirements on their labels.
Plus they can be pointed at the power resistors to help keep them a little cooler. and you can see them turning  ;D
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Bruce S

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #600 on: May 30, 2012, 04:55:07 PM »

Pics and calculations (numbers and math) are much better than one off criticism.

wasnt intended to be a critcism - just a comment based on expereince in one of the worlds windest places

I'll be happy to show some calcs if you could provide me with the output stats for the car alt  ::)
Base it on ChrisO's unit since most likely it'll be the unit being used the longest
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Steadfast

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #601 on: May 30, 2012, 04:57:12 PM »
Steadfast.
The biggest problem fab was trying to say about the bulbs is that they change as they get hot.
Better would be a 12Vdc muffin fan, the power curve is much flatter and you can see the power requirements on their labels.
Plus they can be pointed at the power resistors to help keep them a little cooler. and you can see them turning  ;D
Brilliant.... see that's why I come here to ask my questions....
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sean_ork

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #602 on: May 30, 2012, 04:58:44 PM »

Base it on ChrisO's unit since most likely it'll be the unit being used the longest

stats ?

sean_ork

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #603 on: May 30, 2012, 05:16:13 PM »
don't buy anything yet Steadfast

Steadfast

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #604 on: May 30, 2012, 05:25:22 PM »
don't buy anything yet Steadfast
I wont...I am just looking around and about right now...

as for the 12vdc fan, I am looking at this one:

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/OD1238-12HBXC/1053-1147-ND/2621052
Air Flow: 200.0 CFM (5.66m³/min)
Size:120mmX120mm = almost 5in square
$20.79 each
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 05:30:34 PM by Steadfast »
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Steadfast

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #605 on: May 30, 2012, 05:29:30 PM »

Base it on ChrisO's unit since most likely it'll be the unit being used the longest

stats ?
watch the video...
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midwoud1

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #606 on: May 30, 2012, 05:41:22 PM »
5 rods parallel  , 2 ohm each  ,100Watt .  Total 500 Watt.

1/2+1/2+1/2+1/2+1/2 = 5/2    turnover =2/5  = 0,4 ohm.

Calculation dump resistor. Or to find other values.
 
 - F -




Bruce S

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #607 on: May 30, 2012, 05:46:56 PM »
5 rods parallel  , 2 ohm each  ,100Watt .  Total 500 Watt.

1/2+1/2+1/2+1/2+1/2 = 5/2    turnover =2/5  = 0,4 ohm.

Calculation dump resistor. Or to find other values.
 
 - F -
-F-
Thanks for the post!! work keeps getting in the way!!
Going from 10Meg pipe to 100Meg is fun!! >:(
I'm going to quote you here to make it so it shows again.
Steadfast---
NOTE they are in parallel NOT series.
Cheers;
Bruce S
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Steadfast

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #608 on: May 30, 2012, 06:28:36 PM »


They also make a 10 OHM 100 WATT version...
$10 each...


.
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ghurd

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #609 on: May 30, 2012, 06:58:55 PM »
OK guys, tons of stuff to cover in a limited time.

NO light bulbs!
-  I burned out a car head light while prototyping the ghurd controller in maybe 35~40 minutes.
(big round 70s type, so fingerprints were not an issue)
-  Lightbulbs have a HUGE surge current, which can and will damage any decent controller if it is loaded anywhere near its rating.
(using a lightbulb will VOID the warrenty on good controllers, and yes, they can tell)

There is not usable light anyway.  It will maybe glow most of the time.  In big winds it may flicker.

If you want a shed / porch light (?), get a decent quality 12VDC CFL, like a Solsom.  Or use an inverter with a 120VAC CFL.

If you think you will save money using lightbulbs as dump loads, that is just plain wrong.

The only exception to the "no lightbulb rule" is microscopic systems.  And bulbs like #1156 or #194 are OK, but still not exactly reliable or cost effective in the long term.  Need to de-rate the controller to deal with the surge currents.


Do NOT use a solar controller!  It WILL blow up, and it will blow up quick with a Red/Bloo car alt.
And when it blows up, there is a reasonable chance it will cause the blades to fail.


Do NOT use crap controllers that uses relays.  It will fail.
Look deeper into "controllers" that come in 40A increments (40, 80, 120, 160A, or even 440A).  Cheapie auto relays are 40A.
And I don't care if it has a fancy "micro processor".
(I just sent a box to a guy who used a fancy 440A do-hickey, because his 440A do-hickey failed, and ruined many $1,000s of SLAs)


Lets think about this 2 ohm 100W resistor for a minute, shall we?
14.4V regulation voltage?
14.4V/2 ohms = 7.2A
7.2A^2 x 2 = 104W
104W in a 100W resistor.  Might be OK, but its gonna get REAL hot when the wind is strong.

Now lets look at equalization.  15.5V?
15.5V/2 ohms = 7.75A
7.75A^2 x 2 ohms = 120W

104 and 120W in a resistor rated for 100W?  Not good.
I have seen setups like that melt the solder off the resistor terminals.

The resistors I sell are rated for 25W, and they are only using about 20W.  That is a 20% decrease of max power, instead of a 20% increase.
At lower than rated power, and lower than typical regulation voltage, they increase in temperature about 1 degree F per second at 100% duty cycle (just 'on').  IIRC, I stopped it at about 275F.  If any dump load is running that long at 100% duty cycle, there is a vry serious issue with the dump load being sorely under what is required, and saving a couple $ on the dump load is ruining the battery.

Momentary side track:
-  3 of them in series is 6 ohms.  Combined, they would dump only 34.5W.  11.5W in each 100W resistor.  Waste of money.

-  5 of them in series is 10 ohms.  Combined, a hair under 20W.  4W each.  Cost $65~70 total?
The $1.50 resistor I sell will dump the same power.


I do NOT like stuff to be hot.  Maybe thats just me.
If a fan is required to keep it cool enough to function, guess what will fail first?  The fan.
Guess what will fail next?  The stuff that got too hot.

I do not mind a fan if it is just to keep it a bit cooler, but it is best if the unit is rated to function WITHOUT the fan.

That fan in the link uses almost 2A!
And the total cost is, uh, "more than it needs to be".
Better off puting the fan money into a couple other parts to increase reliablility and keep it cooler by itself in a system that does NOT require a fan.  If you know what I mean.


That ebay £52.00 thing is full of oxymorons in the discription.  It sounds great to someone who doesn't know what any of that double-talk means, but I know what it means.
IE: It has NO hysteresis?  None at all?  So what is the PWM algorithm based on? LOL!

The other ebay type things with relays are not good either.

If you want a state-of-the-art controller, they are sold at real places that sell real wind turbines, they do not have relays, and they are not cheap.
And they are available at many retailers, not just one little place who sells on their fancy website or ebay.

If you want something decent and low cost for that size machine, email me.
G-

PS- 10 ohm will dump a hair under 20W.  Which is what I sell for $1.50.
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

sean_ork

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #610 on: May 30, 2012, 07:25:17 PM »

That ebay £52.00 thing is full of oxymorons in the discription.  It sounds great to someone who doesn't know what any of that double-talk means, but I know what it means.
IE: It has NO hysteresis?  None at all?  So what is the PWM algorithm based on? LOL!


''That ebay £52.00 thing''  .............. don't underestimate it

I also have one of your's Ghurd - I don't suppose you have sent many to Orkney

fabricator

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #611 on: May 30, 2012, 07:42:19 PM »
you might also wish to confirm which mill you are proposing these parts are for

the toy one or the adults one - both will require a different setup
NOT really, if the one is setup for ChrisO's unit , then from my calcs, it'll certainly handle the RED Delco.
The other one I would not call a toy. A toy one would be one you would buy from Edmond Scientific to teach kiddes and isn't much more than something that would sit on a table.
Even if it doesn't work as planned, it's still not something I would consider a toy.
JMO.
Bruce S

fitting a fully fledged all singing and dancing controller on the car alt mill, on the off chance a hurricane blows through, would be a waste of resource IMHO

I agree, all joking aside, that redelco likely won't even need a charge controller.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

fabricator

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #612 on: May 30, 2012, 08:03:53 PM »
I personally use this  http://www.morningstarcorp.com/en/relay-driver  made by Morningstar one of the best names in the RE industry, it is infinitely programable to drive an almost infinite number of relays, apparently Morningstar doesn't seem to have a problem with relays, all electrical components can fail at any time even SSRs
The relay driver pulls in a mechanical relay (rated at several hundred thousand cycles) that turns on water heater elements driven by the inverter, that's AC going to AC elements making actual usable power.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

Mary B

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #613 on: May 30, 2012, 09:40:01 PM »
Think I posted that already  ;D

5 rods parallel  , 2 ohm each  ,100Watt .  Total 500 Watt.

1/2+1/2+1/2+1/2+1/2 = 5/2    turnover =2/5  = 0,4 ohm.

Calculation dump resistor. Or to find other values.
 
 - F -

Steadfast

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #614 on: May 30, 2012, 09:49:57 PM »
well well well....looky what I got in the mail....


The story of the HBird's creation will bigin here:
http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,146772.0.html
« Last Edit: May 30, 2012, 10:37:04 PM by Steadfast »
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fabricator

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #615 on: May 30, 2012, 11:02:05 PM »
And that my friend will make that redelco look like a kiddies pinwheel.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

ChrisOlson

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #616 on: May 31, 2012, 12:00:12 AM »
And that my friend will make that redelco look like a kiddies pinwheel.

Especially with a set of GOE222's strapped on it.  You ain't seen nuthin' yet   :o
--
Chris

DamonHD

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #617 on: May 31, 2012, 02:58:25 AM »
So, part of your answer is:

1) DO NOT rely on lamps as dump loads.

2) If you are going to have a lamp in your dump load arrangement then it should be in ***parallel*** with everything else so that when it fails it won't take the real resistive dump loads out of circuit.

It is vital that you understand the difference between series and parallel at this point.

3) Whether you put the resistive loads in series or parallel will depend on their resistance (Ohms), the power that you have to dissipate (the maximum that your turbine could possibly produce), and the system voltage.

4) You MUST NOT include any DC lamp in the above power dissipation---assume that it will fail---but any dump load driver will have to be powerful enough to handle it also when it hasn't failed.

5) You can grow your dump load and dump controller to match your system power inputs as you add them: you don't have to do everything up-front.  (And indeed I have a tiny underspeced GHURD MEGACORP dump system to help my LiPO4 off-grid system's BMS out when my tiny turbine gets the odd puff of wind, but I have another crowbar emergency stop if it is not keeping up.)

Rgds

Damon


Hmm, sorry, may have been rather late to the party on this due to Intarweb issues and/or reading incompetence on my part
« Last Edit: May 31, 2012, 03:52:37 AM by DamonHD »
Podcast: https://www.earth.org.uk/SECTION_podcast.html

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Steadfast

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #618 on: May 31, 2012, 08:22:31 AM »
Hey there Ghurd...
I sent you an email requesting a quote on a ready to install dump controller.
Call me, or PM me your phone # and I'll call you...
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Steadfast

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #619 on: May 31, 2012, 10:28:57 AM »
I said I would honestly post EVERYTHING I am doing... Good, brilliant or stupid...
So here goes...  ;)

Before reading what Ghurd posted above,
I went to Autozone and I bought a $20 "Blazer" 12VDC/55 Watts halogen flood multipurpose tractor light to mount on my shed and use as a "parallel" addition to my future dumpload circuit...   


Was THAT stupid?  :o 
Or
Is DamonHD right and I can still use it?

Should I take it back?
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Bruce S

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #620 on: May 31, 2012, 11:10:50 AM »
I would take it back, get your money back:).
Get the dump load controller going , then add an LED light in parallel to let you know it's in dump mode.
Ghurd's has a LED light on it to let you know it's in dump mode and I'm pretty sure the one Fab posted about does too.
Cheers;
Bruce S
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birdhouse

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #621 on: May 31, 2012, 11:16:14 AM »
steadfast-
you can totally use that light if you want a very bright dump indicator.  just make sure that you have a resistive load large enough to cover max watts the turbine can put out WITHOUT counting the headlight. 

think of the headlight as being over the top dump load...  aka, if it burns out, your resistive load will still cover the max turbine watts. 

just make sure the controller is wired with enough mosfets??  to handle all the loads you're dumping with it.  Ghurd can help you better than i with that part  ;)

adam

Steadfast

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #622 on: May 31, 2012, 01:18:36 PM »
I would take it back, get your money back:).
Get the dump load controller going , then add an LED light in parallel to let you know it's in dump mode.
Ghurd's has a LED light on it to let you know it's in dump mode and I'm pretty sure the one Fab posted about does too.
Cheers;
Bruce S
only problem is that the cool LED light will be inside my shed, across my yard...
If I can work in the Bigger light, like birdhouse suggested, I will be able to tell "whats going on out there" from my kitchen window...  8)
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tanner0441

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #623 on: May 31, 2012, 01:31:33 PM »
Hi

I don't understand why anyone would want a high powered lamp across a dump load. Steadfast you may struggle with what I am about to say at this point in your learning curve, but... If the battery is fully charged your going to be dumping quite early before the turbine is making its design power. Which will drag the speed of the alternator down and hence the voltage, so unless the battery is flat, your going to get the same situation, the dump load kicks in and the speed goes down dragging the voltage with it.

If there is enough power in the wind to keep it turning it is not going to be stable and the speed will be up and down so any lamp will alter its light output with it.  My dump load has a fan on it and you hear the speed of the fan drop off as the load goes on from the resistor. A wire wound resistor has a constant value across a very wide  temperature range, a bulb on the otherhand varies its resistance as it lights up.

Listen to what Gurd is saying light bulbs as a dump load will null any warranty your controler may have. If the bulb blows while the turbine is working hard the voltage from the turbine will rise faster than you can see on your meter. Years ago transistors were known as the fastest fuse on three legs, your controler will be full of them even if the're hidden in ICs.

You now have a demon of a turbine, go for a demon of a controler to look after it, and your batteries.  If you find the turbine always seems to be dumping a lot, stick more batteries on and find more to do with the surplus power.

Brian

It won't let me spell check....

ChrisOlson

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #624 on: May 31, 2012, 01:59:52 PM »
Personally, I think we're all getting carried away with dump load ideas.  Remember, this is a small turbine on a short tower in the trees.  If it was a 3 meter machine on a 90 foot tower, then finding some way to use up excess power gets more critical.

The ReDelco will need no diversion at all.  It will never over-charge the batteries, even in a hurricane.  The axial I sent you will run from cut-in to 100 watts on any good day with Dave's blades on it, and will probably tickle 400-500 watts in really good 30 mph wind.

You have solar panels, so I assume you have a solar controller.  With both wind and solar power, when the solar gets the batteries charged up, and the wind is still blowing, the solar controller typically cuts the output of the panels during absorb/float and lets the wind turbine do it's thing.  Only if the turbine puts out more power than what the batteries and load requires will the voltage rise to ridiculous levels.  And even that's not terrible because batteries like to be bubbled instead of undercharged - they use a little more water.  But running higher voltages is going to get better battery life with less sulfation problems than undercharging all the time, cycling a dump load controller in and out at 14.5 volts.

A good dump load controller will use PWM, like Ghurd's.  That type will regulate the voltage at the right level for proper charging of the bank.  But if you have a solar controller that already does this, chances are you're not going to need another one.  If you don't have a solar controller, that's the first thing I'd buy before I stuck any money in another dump load/diversion controller.

So first, have a DECENT solar controller that does bulk/absorb/float and maybe even equalize.  Then fly the turbine and see how the wind and solar interacts with one another.  Wind power is just not steady enough, in most cases, to drive a battery bank to dangerous voltage levels unless you have the turbine on a 90 foot tower in laminar wind where it can make some real power.
--
Chris

Steadfast

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #625 on: May 31, 2012, 03:08:41 PM »
OK...I will return the light... 

Chris,
I am running my battery array with a “Steca Solarix PRS 1515”, 15 Amp 12/24V Charge Controller.
http://www.gogreensolar.com/products/steca-solarix-prs-1515-15-amp-12-24v-charge-controller

I am also running my battery array with a Cobra CPI 1575 1500 Watt 12 Volt DC to 120 Volt AC Power Inverter...

Today at Northern Tool, I did find a muffin fan (12vdc 55watts) for  $6
And I will wait on ghurd to offer me a dump load product...
By Hook or by Crook - Prayer, Persistence and Tenacity will win the day!

fabricator

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Re: Light Weight Wind Turbine Project - as I build it.
« Reply #626 on: May 31, 2012, 03:52:15 PM »
What are you gonna put up first, the redelco or Chris's alternator? If it's the redelco just hang it up and don't spend any money right now, you already got the docwatson and you can watch what it's doing and you will soon see you don't need a dump controller for that thing, and if a hurricane blows in plug a waffle iron or a curling iron into your inverter at it's lowest setting, seriously.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.