Author Topic: fisher and paykel questions  (Read 7285 times)

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gww

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fisher and paykel questions
« on: June 11, 2012, 06:43:30 PM »
I have a 36 pole washing machine motor.
On the backshead web site {great info} it was stated, wired factory, or split in half were good for low wind 48v battery charging.
When I turn mine by hand at aprox 60 rpm I get about 70v no load.
Is anyone here flying one.
Im trying to figure which wiring configuration is best and therefor what the blade size would match best.
Also if anyone here is flying one what wind speed with your setup will get 300w {if any}.
If you are flying one, or not, I would thank all for any help, comments, critique or advice.
Thank you
   gww

fabricator

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Re: fisher and paykel questions
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2012, 07:04:01 PM »
The back shed is an excellent source for F&P conversions.
I aint skeerd of nuthin.......Holy Crap! What was that!!!!!
11 Miles east of Lake Michigan, Ottawa County, Robinson township, (home of the defacto residential wind ban) Michigan, USA.

electrondady1

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Re: fisher and paykel questions
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2012, 07:20:09 PM »
govertical (a member hear)is working on an f and p

GoVertical

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Re: fisher and paykel questions
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2012, 07:22:35 PM »
Hi, I am currently testing a stock F&P. With the stock wiring it produces a very high voltage with low current output. Use the information at the back shad forum or post questions there, they will help and have multiple experienced users. Above all be careful.
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gww

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Re: fisher and paykel questions
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2012, 07:47:42 PM »
fabricator
Very true, great wiring details but, still left the decission on which one to use to me and I didn't see any blade sizing.
eveything I build is someone's plan and I find that I don't fill in the blanks very well unless its very detailed.
  Im having a hard time figuring out What the end result will be on different options and which blade sizes.
  Will be hooked strait to battery bank with other tubines.
  Solar will also, with outback inverter mx 60 cc and from batteries morningstar 60. 
a little guidence please.
 thank you
     gww

gww

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Re: fisher and paykel questions
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2012, 08:02:33 PM »
electrondady1 and govertical
Thank you. 
 Probly the right answer.
 Would I have to register? 
lot of great sites but I only just registered here recently. 
Love all the stuff on the backshed site and otherpower site.
 a lot of knowlade here.
 I've been typing since I got your suggestion.
 It take a long time for me to answer and Im not sure how much I want to spread my spelling around.
 wish spellcheck worked for me here
Are you doing a vawt? 
any more ideals on my questions are apreteated.

gizmo

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Re: fisher and paykel questions
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2012, 08:31:58 PM »
That's my site, thebackshed, and I totally agree the information on the site is a bit all over the place. The last time I built a F&P windmill was over 5 years ago, and back then the expected power output was about 1 watt per RPM, so at 200 rpm you could expect 200 watts. A 2 meter diameter turbine was a good starting point, but some builds went up to 3m. Though not the most efficient use of a iron cored alternator, this was a simple setup, 3 phase AC into a bridge rectifier, easy to describe and build. I was starting to play around with staggered stators and the GEO222 blades giving me better low wind and peak power figures, when I had to pack up my workshop and sell my place. Since then I've been on the move, but will soon ( a few months ) have a new workshop and can continue experimenting with the F&P.

But in the meantime others have experimented with capacitors and MPPT's to push the power from a single F&P to over 1000 watts, though not always in a practical sense.

Are you wanting to use the 36 pole on a 48volt system? Also, what are your wind conditions like? Did you want to make your own blades from timber or buy something like the GEO222's?

Glenn

GoVertical

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Re: fisher and paykel questions
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2012, 08:36:40 PM »
Hi, yes I am still working on the VAWT project. Are you aware of the problem with the internal resistance of the stator of any PMA? The higher the internal resistance the more power is wasted as heat at the PMA. That is why they connect the coils in parallel, it reduces the internal resistance and more current reaches the load. Another way to deal with the problem is to add a DC to DC step down converter (Buck Converter or MPPT, it is the last piece of the puzzle)to your system. Make sure to include a Dump Load controller in your system. I hope to see some photos of your project.
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gizmo

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Re: fisher and paykel questions
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2012, 09:51:45 PM »
Yes the internal resistance of the F&P is a problem, but we need to remember it wasn't designed as a alternator, its a washing machine motor. The simplest way to use the F&P is to re-configure the stator windings as shown on mine and other web sites. Its not the most efficient set up, and there are problems with reactance limiting and run-away at high RPM. But, the F&P is tough, and cheap, so its a good basis for a basic wind turbine.

But there is much more power to be had from a F&P. In a ideal setup you would run the F&P unaltered, and use a smart buck converter to give the best power transfer. In this situation you could expect over 80 or even 90% efficiency over the rpm range from 50 to 500 rpm and expect several hundred watts. But at this time, that I know of, there hasn't been any shared information that could be replicated and cost effective for your average builder. One problem with this approach is as mentioned, the F&P can generate some seriously dangerous voltages in standard trim. Building a buck converter to run at 500 or more volts is not easy to do unless you have the know-how. But there are advantages too, like transmission losses, you could use standard cheap 10 amp 3 core wire for your cable run. And even thought the F&P is pretty indestructable anyway, it would be easy and cheap to swap out a damaged alternator if left in standard form.

Its also worth looking at work done in using capacitors with the F&P. There are two ways caps can help, as series caps to improve the maximum power, and as voltage multipliers, where gains in low wind power are made. These low wind gains are important, its where most of your watt/hours are made for a typical average wind site. The series cap arrangement worked best with a 100 series 42pole stator on a 24v battery, giving over 500 watts.

Glenn

gww

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Re: fisher and paykel questions
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2012, 06:26:17 PM »
Govertical
I just looked at an older post of your geared vawt where you were changing to a timing belt pully.  Thanks for your responce and i welcome any suggetions or corrections. I am a dummy with pictures and computers.
PS 
I aready have the motor so what the heck.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2012, 06:39:52 PM by gww »

gww

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Re: fisher and paykel questions
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2012, 06:35:49 PM »
Glenn

My name is Glenn also.  Love your website.  last looked at your oven coil and light divertion load ideals.  By your post Im thinking the 8' Hugh Piggot blades I've been making might work.  Im going to trie to halve the 36 coils. Whatever i get I'm going to run to the 48v battery bank.  I live in a low wind area and if I'm screwed up pleas tell me.
dont understand compasiters and such.  trying to keep it simple.  thanks

GoVertical

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Re: fisher and paykel questions
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2012, 09:06:36 PM »
Govertical
I just looked at an older post of your geared vawt where you were changing to a timing belt pully.  Thanks for your responce and i welcome any suggetions or corrections. I am a dummy with pictures and computers.
PS 
I aready have the motor so what the heck.


Hi, I have been working on my project for a few years. I am still learning. Best of luck with your project.
Learn from the past, live in the present, plan for the future
kilroyOdin is not here ;)
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gizmo

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Re: fisher and paykel questions
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2012, 10:11:26 PM »
For 48 volts with the 8 foot Hugh Piggot blades I would lean more toware splitting the stator into 3 ( 36Pole 3X4C ) instead of 2 ( 36Pole 2X6C ) http://www.thebackshed.com/Windmill/FPRewire.asp. But I could be wrong and it really does depend on your average wind conditions, you may need to experiment. If you can find another stator, wire one up as 3X4C and one as 2X6C, and try one then othe other for a few days at a time. The 2X6C will have a lower cut in speed, which means more power in low winds, but its peak power will be less than a 3X4C in stronger winds. Peak power isn't everything though, and sometimes its better to build for low wind conditions and accumulate the watt hours, and accept the fact the max power in strong winds is less than it could be.

This is one reason the dual stator F&P turbines work so well, each stator is wired up differently, and with a staggered stator config, we can have different coil groups cutting in at different speeds, to give a better power curve to match the wind power. Each coil group needs its own rectification.

I would suggest you give Gordons cap mod a go though http://www.thebackshed.com/Windmill/articles/GordonsCapMod.asp. Reconfigure the stator as a 3X4C with caps and you have a better performing alternator, with the voltage doubler to grab a few watts in low winds before normal cut in speed.

Again, this is just guess work, I dont have any way of testing a 36 pole at this time, but its something I plan to do.

Glenn

gww

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Re: fisher and paykel questions
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2012, 06:07:05 AM »
Gizmo
Thank you.  I will take your advice on the 3 split insted of the two.  I will look at you site for the cap thingy altough it is above my head.  Only one motor my uncle gave me.  very good post. and thank you.

gizmo

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Re: fisher and paykel questions
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2012, 08:23:24 AM »
Since you only have the one stator, when you reconfigure the windings as a 3X4C, do it in such a way that, if you have to, you can change it to a 2X6C.

What I mean is, when I'm experimenting with stuff like this, I try to do it in such a way thats its un-do-able, so if I have to, I can go back a step and make changes. Normally after reconfiguring the stator coils, I would paint the entire stator to protect the windings and lamination. But dont do that yet, experiment with it first to see if it does work OK.

Its no big deal to rejoin the cut coil wires, so long as you didn't cut them to short. Each coil has a two wires, one starts in the inside of the coil, the other on the outside. So if you need to cut one of these wires, leave as much length on the inside wire as possible, so its easy to rejoin it if needed. The outside wire can be unwound one turn to give extra length, so this is the one to cut short. Does that make sense?

Glenn

gww

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Re: fisher and paykel questions
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2012, 04:06:16 PM »
Gizmo
Thank you.  It does make sence.  I will actually be adding flex wire to the coil  connections that are cut and split off, right?   If so, can't I reconfigure with the flex wire to give me more latitude for easier reconfigureations.  Does this make sence? If so will flex wire change the dinamics of the system?  thanks

PS what is a geo222 blade?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 04:10:46 PM by gww »

gizmo

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Re: fisher and paykel questions
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2012, 11:25:09 PM »
Yeah flex wire is fine, something that can handle 10 amps or so. It can look a bit messy, but from a electrical point of view its not a problem.

The GEO222 blades are discussed on this forum and at thebackshed.com. They are a good all rounder, and seam to work well with the F&P's. You can buy them in PVC, aluminium and timber, it really just depends on delivery, cost and you own preferences. But if you already have a set of Piggots, then stick with them for now.

Glenn

gww

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Re: fisher and paykel questions
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2012, 05:13:45 AM »
gizmo
Thank you
  Glenn

gizmo

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Re: fisher and paykel questions
« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2012, 09:13:11 AM »
Actually thats a typo, its not GEO222, its GOE222. My fault. I've been calling them GEO222 but I see on the Royal Fabrication site its GOE222. http://www.royalwindandsolar.com/technical.html

Glenn

gww

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Re: fisher and paykel questions
« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2012, 03:42:52 PM »
gizmo
Got it. thank you