Reliable Power Inverter Brands?

[Mastiffman]

Just looking for some good Sound advice for some power inverter brands?

 Also how many can I run off of a 12v Battery Bank?

[baffled]

For what it's worth, we are very pleased with a Trace Inverter we've had for almost 13 years now. It is a modified sine wave 24 volt unit and has never failed us yet. We bought a Trace autotransformer to take 240 VAC generator and drop to 120 VAC which is connected to that Trace inverter so when the generator runs, the inverter acts as a battery charger. The transformer is supposed to help balance the load on the generator and I believe it helps to make sure the generator output is fully utilized by the inverter/charger. A large enough generator is needed to get full output of the charging. We use a 6000 watt generator.

[Mastiffman]

For what it's worth, we are very pleased with a Trace Inverter we've had for almost 13 years now. It is a modified sine wave 24 volt unit and has never failed us yet. We bought a Trace autotransformer to take 240 VAC generator and drop to 120 VAC which is connected to that Trace inverter so when the generator runs, the inverter acts as a battery charger. The transformer is supposed to help balance the load on the generator and I believe it helps to make sure the generator output is fully utilized by the inverter/charger. A large enough generator is needed to get full output of the charging. We use a 6000 watt generator.

 Okay thank you. So you like the Trace Brand? Are they still available?

[birdhouse]

trace was bought by xantrex, who was bought recently by schneider electric, though as far as i know, they're still making products under the xantrex name.  i have an older (before schneider buyout) xantrex prosine 1800 that i love!  it's beastly for not being a big boy inverter. 

outback makes great inverters, as well as magnum. 

for a smaller system, with budget in mind, seems folks get pretty good results out of samlex inverters. 

you can run 150 inverters off a battery bank if you really want, but it's a far better route to get one inverter that is sized for what you want to run, and then buy the next bigger one!

do some reading on modified sine wave versus pure sine wave.  that's another potentially pricey decision.

adam

[Mastiffman]

trace was bought by xantrex, who was bought recently by schneider electric, though as far as i know, they're still making products under the xantrex name.  i have an older (before schneider buyout) xantrex prosine 1800 that i love!  it's beastly for not being a big boy inverter. 

outback makes great inverters, as well as magnum. 

for a smaller system, with budget in mind, seems folks get pretty good results out of samlex inverters. 

you can run 150 inverters off a battery bank if you really want, but it's a far better route to get one inverter that is sized for what you want to run, and then buy the next bigger one!

do some reading on modified sine wave versus pure sine wave.  that's another potentially pricey decision.

adam

 Gotcha. So just with a quick reading to see if I'm understanding. PSW Inverters are better for more sensitive electronics with lower power consumptions and MSW Inverters are better handling more consuming equipment that don't need power that is as finely tuned as TSW? Like Power tools, Fans, etc... In my case, running Aquarium filters (magnetic impellers powered by EM Coils), auqarium heaters and lighting would be okay with MSW Inverter power? And in the future, IF I were to power my LED LCD Tv and Stereo equipment (If I needed which I don't plan on at the moment) would be better off with PSW inverter power!?

 What about a Newer Refridgerator or Dishwasher? Okay with MSW?

[Mastiffman]

trace was bought by xantrex, who was bought recently by schneider electric, though as far as i know, they're still making products under the xantrex name.  i have an older (before schneider buyout) xantrex prosine 1800 that i love!  it's beastly for not being a big boy inverter. 

outback makes great inverters, as well as magnum. 

for a smaller system, with budget in mind, seems folks get pretty good results out of samlex inverters. 

you can run 150 inverters off a battery bank if you really want, but it's a far better route to get one inverter that is sized for what you want to run, and then buy the next bigger one!

do some reading on modified sine wave versus pure sine wave.  that's another potentially pricey decision.

adam

 Gotcha. So just with a quick reading to see if I'm understanding. PSW Inverters are better for more sensitive electronics with lower power consumptions and MSW Inverters are better handling more consuming equipment that don't need power that is as finely tuned as TSW? Like Power tools, Fans, etc... In my case, running Aquarium filters (magnetic impellers powered by EM Coils), auqarium heaters and lighting would be okay with MSW Inverter power? And in the future, IF I were to power my LED LCD Tv and Stereo equipment (If I needed which I don't plan on at the moment) would be better off with PSW inverter power!?

 What about a Newer Refridgerator or Dishwasher? Okay with MSW?

 What about this Vector 1200watt inverter. The owner only wants $60 for it... It's a Modified Sine Wave.
http://detroit.craigslist.org/mcb/ele/3095074230.html

 Here are the Specs.

Maximum efficiency   Approximately 90%
No-load draw   < 1.4 amp
Output Wave Form   Modified Sinewave
Input voltage range   10.5 -15.5 VDC
Output voltage range   110/120 VAC 60 Hz
Low voltage alarm   10.6 volts
Low voltage shutdown   10.0 volts auto reset
Thermal shutdown   Yes, auto reset 
AC receptacles   3
Warranty   2 years
Inverter weight   5 lbs
Shipping weight   6 lbs
Product dimensions   13"x 6 "x 2.5 "

[Mastiffman]

ANyone ever heard of "DURIFIED" brand power inverters?

[birdhouse]

auqarium heaters and lighting would be okay with MSW Inverter power?

depends, is the lighting fluroscent?  if so, some fixtures buzz loudly on MSW.  microwaves can have issues, digital clocks don't keep time correctly, ect. 

personally, i plug WAY too much expensive things into my inverter to even think about going MSW, however others will argue the exact opposite. 

personally, i don't think i'll ever buy a MSW inverter, but that's just me.  there was a really good debate about the whole thing a few years back.  can't remember the thread name though... 

never heard of durified, though there's a million chinese companies making these things with outlandish claims.  like say a 1200w with a 2000w surge rating...  the cheapies may have that 2000w surge for literally 1/10th of a second.  good inverters will handle surge for 10+ seconds, some even 30 minutes... 

if your gonna go cheap, i'd shop by weight for given *stated* output. 
 
adam

[bob g]

every once in a while someone will renew a telecom installation
and they will surplus out the inverter system on ebay.

usually they are made by exeltech, and are iirc the mx series, almost always 48volt dC front end, and 117volts 60hz pure sine wave on the back end.

they are rack mount units, hot swappable, about as bullet proof as anything can ever be.

the folks down in fort worth texas (exeltech headquarters) are very good to work with, and will service and provide tech support for their products second to none.

their inverters are the cleanest pure sine wave units on the market, they advertize to be better than 2% harmonic distortion, but in actual use they will be well under that in reality.

i have i think about 20 some kwatts of exeltech inverters, actually i think there is over 30kwatts, i bought them surplus and have less money in them than i would have had in ~5kwatts of new outback inverters... i think it is because everyone knows about outback and they rarely ever come available for a great price... although

i did find on craiglist for a friend of mine a huge outback system, 11kwatts of inverters all on the mounting system, an mx60, distribution panels, mate and other stuff for 3 grand a couple years ago. it was a 2 year old 24volt system that was being replaced on a yacht in seattle.

i kick myself for not buying it for myself!

keep an eye out, sometimes the secondary market will come up with some nice high end stuff well worth the money.

bob g

[Mastiffman]

depends, is the lighting fluroscent?  if so, some fixtures buzz loudly on MSW.  microwaves can have issues, digital clocks don't keep time correctly, ect. 

personally, i plug WAY too much expensive things into my inverter to even think about going MSW, however others will argue the exact opposite. 

personally, i don't think i'll ever buy a MSW inverter, but that's just me.  there was a really good debate about the whole thing a few years back.  can't remember the thread name though... 

never heard of durified, though there's a million chinese companies making these things with outlandish claims.  like say a 1200w with a 2000w surge rating...  the cheapies may have that 2000w surge for literally 1/10th of a second.  good inverters will handle surge for 10+ seconds, some even 30 minutes... 

if your gonna go cheap, i'd shop by weight for given *stated* output. 
 
adam

 Makes sense Adam. So as long as I find the  right combination of Specs (i.e. Running Watts, Surge Watts, Pure Sine Wave and Decent Surge Run time [15sec+]) then I'm good to go? Or should I stick with the "Big Boy" Brands?

 Also, Taking into account that I will be using this inverter maninly for filtration and Heating for my Tanks, modified should be fine. I would use lighting powered either by the Local grid or with a sperate PSW inverter....

every once in a while someone will renew a telecom installation
and they will surplus out the inverter system on ebay.

usually they are made by exeltech, and are iirc the mx series, almost always 48volt dC front end, and 117volts 60hz pure sine wave on the back end.

they are rack mount units, hot swappable, about as bullet proof as anything can ever be.

the folks down in fort worth texas (exeltech headquarters) are very good to work with, and will service and provide tech support for their products second to none.

their inverters are the cleanest pure sine wave units on the market, they advertize to be better than 2% harmonic distortion, but in actual use they will be well under that in reality.

i have i think about 20 some kwatts of exeltech inverters, actually i think there is over 30kwatts, i bought them surplus and have less money in them than i would have had in ~5kwatts of new outback inverters... i think it is because everyone knows about outback and they rarely ever come available for a great price... although

i did find on craiglist for a friend of mine a huge outback system, 11kwatts of inverters all on the mounting system, an mx60, distribution panels, mate and other stuff for 3 grand a couple years ago. it was a 2 year old 24volt system that was being replaced on a yacht in seattle.

i kick myself for not buying it for myself!

keep an eye out, sometimes the secondary market will come up with some nice high end stuff well worth the money.

bob g

 WOW, yeah that would be a nice find worth waiting for definiyely! Am I correct saying that higher DC Volt systems (i.e 24 or 48v) will allow for longer Ah's of the battery banks? So for example, if I have 12v battery bank of 6 batteries, the sam 6 batteries will last longer if configured in a 24 or even longer in a 48v system?

 BY the way.. I made a typo. The brand is "DURAFIED"...

[XeonPony]

Personally any thing with a magnetic coil needs pure sine wave the MSW will work but you'll tend to get allot of noise from them, only reason I use a MSW it was given to me free, other wise I'd have lived with out till I could get a pure sine wave, and being poor I'd get a Magnum PSW at that, allot of the logging camps and fishing boats around here use them and swear by them in costumer service and replacement part availability when needed, they are not a throw away!

[Mastiffman]

Personally any thing with a magnetic coil needs pure sine wave the MSW will work but you'll tend to get allot of noise from them, only reason I use a MSW it was given to me free, other wise I'd have lived with out till I could get a pure sine wave, and being poor I'd get a Magnum PSW at that, allot of the logging camps and fishing boats around here use them and swear by them in costumer service and replacement part availability when needed, they are not a throw away!

 I'm curious if you could please explain How a Completely Sealed Electro Magnetic Coil Make noise? It's sealed in reisen filled compartment as it's classified as a "submersible pump"...

 I will look for some of those magnums PSW inverters then. Thank you fro the suggestion.

[DanG]

https://www.google.com/search?q=modified+sine+wave+noise

[mab]

I think it varies from case to case - I run fridges & freezers on a MSW 1400va APC UPS (bought for 0.99p on ebay  ) and they make no more noise than on grid power. power tools with brushed motors also seem to be fine.

electronic computer psu's and cfl's don't care what the waveform is; but a 1 hour nicd battery charger doesn't like MSW.

the washing machine doesn't like MSW when turning slowly(both the W/machine and the inverter make ominous growling noises), but is fine when spinning.

if you can get a cheap MSW it'll work for most things but if you want it to work for everything PSW is better - but you have to pay for it.

[Mastiffman]

https://www.google.com/search?q=modified+sine+wave+noise

 Does this link pertain to running an EM water pump that powers a Magnetic impeller? 

[Mastiffman]

I think it varies from case to case - I run fridges & freezers on a MSW 1400va APC UPS (bought for 0.99p on ebay  ) and they make no more noise than on grid power. power tools with brushed motors also seem to be fine.

electronic computer psu's and cfl's don't care what the waveform is; but a 1 hour nicd battery charger doesn't like MSW.

the washing machine doesn't like MSW when turning slowly(both the W/machine and the inverter make ominous growling noises), but is fine when spinning.

if you can get a cheap MSW it'll work for most things but if you want it to work for everything PSW is better - but you have to pay for it.

 What You said makes sense to me the most. Not because of understanding but because of logic. Thanks for posting.

 Like I said before, I'm Only going to running Aquarium heaters and Water pumps powered by EM Coils that Spin an Impeller that is attached to a Magnet. The EM field created by the Comlpetely Resin sealed coil is what makes the impellers magnet spin.

 If I'm wrong here in thinking that noise (other than the pump moving water itself) will not be created just running through a Coil that spins an impeller, correct me and give the reason. NOT a link...

[niall2]

i,m not a fish ....but have the same memory span of one ...but maybe it,s not fish we,re talking about

an "Aquarium" erm ...not sure quite what the topic is here

but i,d imagine if the coils in the impeller are feed with " rough " ac  ( rectified maybe.. ish ?)....then all kind of harmonics might be let loose in the coils .....a loud speaker in a way

do fish hear ?...

[XeonPony]

Personally any thing with a magnetic coil needs pure sine wave the MSW will work but you'll tend to get allot of noise from them, only reason I use a MSW it was given to me free, other wise I'd have lived with out till I could get a pure sine wave, and being poor I'd get a Magnum PSW at that, allot of the logging camps and fishing boats around here use them and swear by them in costumer service and replacement part availability when needed, they are not a throw away!

 I'm curious if you could please explain How a Completely Sealed Electro Magnetic Coil Make noise? It's sealed in reisen filled compartment as it's classified as a "submersible pump"...

 I will look for some of those magnums PSW inverters then. Thank you fro the suggestion.

The coiles in my Morningsrar are sealed still hear em, sound travels 800 times better in a solid then air it is the buzz that nearly every thing gives off with modified and the back streaming into the DC buss mind you it is a cheaper MSW that I have.

[Mastiffman]

i,m not a fish ....but have the same memory span of one ...but maybe it,s not fish we,re talking about

an "Aquarium" erm ...not sure quite what the topic is here

but i,d imagine if the coils in the impeller are feed with " rough " ac  ( rectified maybe.. ish ?)....then all kind of harmonics might be let loose in the coils .....a loud speaker in a way

do fish hear ?...

Personally any thing with a magnetic coil needs pure sine wave the MSW will work but you'll tend to get allot of noise from them, only reason I use a MSW it was given to me free, other wise I'd have lived with out till I could get a pure sine wave, and being poor I'd get a Magnum PSW at that, allot of the logging camps and fishing boats around here use them and swear by them in costumer service and replacement part availability when needed, they are not a throw away!

 I'm curious if you could please explain How a Completely Sealed Electro Magnetic Coil Make noise? It's sealed in reisen filled compartment as it's classified as a "submersible pump"...

 I will look for some of those magnums PSW inverters then. Thank you fro the suggestion.

The coiles in my Morningsrar are sealed still hear em, sound travels 800 times better in a solid then air it is the buzz that nearly every thing gives off with modified and the back streaming into the DC buss mind you it is a cheaper MSW that I have.

 Okay, well maybe I will just stick to trying to find a PSW inverter then! Seems like it would be less to worry abuot all together.

 Thanks for the input. NOw I just have to hunt one down for the right price. 

[birdhouse]

i've never owned one, but some companies make units that are better than regular MSW, yet not a PSW either.  MSW is basically a square wave.  the "hybrid" units have a stepped wave.  the edges are still square, but there are a few steps, to closer simulate a PSW. 

may be worth looking into? 

adam

[Mary B]

Fan in my Samlex sounds like a jet engine 

[Mastiffman]

i've never owned one, but some companies make units that are better than regular MSW, yet not a PSW either.  MSW is basically a square wave.  the "hybrid" units have a stepped wave.  the edges are still square, but there are a few steps, to closer simulate a PSW. 

may be worth looking into? 

adam

[birdhouse]

yea, the cheapies that claim to be MSW are probably square wave.  i think there are companies out there selling units with an even more steps per wave than your chart is showing. 

not sure though, i just bought PSW and forgot about all the rest....  easy, though expensive...

adam

[Mastiffman]

yea, the cheapies that claim to be MSW are probably square wave.  i think there are companies out there selling units with an even more steps per wave than your chart is showing. 

not sure though, i just bought PSW and forgot about all the rest....  easy, though expensive...

adam

 Yeah, THAT is looking more and more like the wiser choice! But like you state before, it's not really okay to go with just "Any" PSW inverter?

[birdhouse]

yea, the cheapest i'd go is samlex.  outback, magnum and xantrex seem to be the kings.  it's funny you wont find long (time duration) surge ratings from any other company.  most of the cheapies don't even spec the surge duration. 

adam

http://www.ebay.com/itm/XANTREX-INVERTER-PROSINE-1000-WATT-TRUE-SINEWAVE-INVERTER-12-VOLT-IN-120-V-OUT-/330747694940?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d02194f5c#ht_500wt_1284

seems like a decent deal...

[Mastiffman]

yea, the cheapest i'd go is samlex.  outback, magnum and xantrex seem to be the kings.  it's funny you wont find long (time duration) surge ratings from any other company.  most of the cheapies don't even spec the surge duration. 

adam

http://www.ebay.com/itm/XANTREX-INVERTER-PROSINE-1000-WATT-TRUE-SINEWAVE-INVERTER-12-VOLT-IN-120-V-OUT-/330747694940?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d02194f5c#ht_500wt_1284

seems like a decent deal...

 Not for me... LOL
 I think that I'll start my journey with  a Lower end unit and then use the monthly savings towards a better one in the near future.

 So I'm looking for a Samlex...? Got it...

[Mastiffman]

Has anyone ever experienced batteries from this MFR?

http://www.usbattery.com/usb_index.html

 I spoke with a Rep today about them and they seem to be priced well and are similar quality to others.

 Does it really make a Difference if I use 6v over 12v batteries for a Batt bank?

 Thanks!

[Mary B]

Have 4 of these from them http://www.usbattery.com/usb_us2200xc_golf.html well known manufacturer

[dnix71]

6V deep cycle batteries are more likely to be real deep cycle batteries.

Most of the 12v "deep cycle" batteries are really hybrids that are capable of starting engines. That means thinner plates and lower life span if actually used for off-grid backup.

The down side to 6v batteries is you have to series connect at least 2 to make 12v. Beyond a 24v bank it becomes difficult to properly equalize the string, and one weak battery will take down the whole string.

If you run 12v and use 12v batteries in parallel for more amp-hours, a weak battery won't kill the bank, it just won't contribute much.

[Mastiffman]

Have 4 of these from them http://www.usbattery.com/usb_us2200xc_golf.html well known manufacturer

 Ah nice! If you don't mind me asking, what did you give a piece for them? The Rep I spoke to is asking $135 W/O a Core. -$20/ core on them.

6V deep cycle batteries are more likely to be real deep cycle batteries.

Most of the 12v "deep cycle" batteries are really hybrids that are capable of starting engines. That means thinner plates and lower life span if actually used for off-grid backup.

The down side to 6v batteries is you have to series connect at least 2 to make 12v. Beyond a 24v bank it becomes difficult to properly equalize the string, and one weak battery will take down the whole string.

If you run 12v and use 12v batteries in parallel for more amp-hours, a weak battery won't kill the bank, it just won't contribute much.

 Make sense being that it takes pairs of 6v batteries to make a 12v system. Any recommendations on 12v deep cycle battereis that won't break the bank but be will build a solid first time Batt Bank?

[dnix71]

http://www.usbattery.com/usb_us31dcxc_marine.html This is their 12v marine hybrid. It has the same 25 amp discharge rating equivalent to the 6v MaryAlana listed above, but it is also rated over 600 cold cranking amps at 0F.

It comes down to price, warranty and how big your storage needs are. The price for the 6v is really good, if it actually puts out the rated power.

You haven't said what you want to do and what's at stake it the system fails to deliver.

You should ask US Battery what the expected number of recharge cycles is at different depth of discharge. If you can afford it up front, a 30% discharge each day will make your batteries last much much longer than a 50% daily cycle. Solar panels last 25 years, batteries no where near that long. It's the battery cost in the long run that will make or break it financially.

[Mastiffman]

http://www.usbattery.com/usb_us31dcxc_marine.html This is their 12v marine hybrid. It has the same 25 amp discharge rating equivalent to the 6v MaryAlana listed above, but it is also rated over 600 cold cranking amps at 0F.

It comes down to price, warranty and how big your storage needs are. The price for the 6v is really good, if it actually puts out the rated power.

You haven't said what you want to do and what's at stake it the system fails to deliver.

You should ask US Battery what the expected number of recharge cycles is at different depth of discharge. If you can afford it up front, a 30% discharge each day will make your batteries last much much longer than a 50% daily cycle. Solar panels last 25 years, batteries no where near that long. It's the battery cost in the long run that will make or break it financially.

 Well Honestly, I'm starting off small to get my feet wet. Only 2 -4 batteries. I just sold something on Craigslist that gave me a total of $550 to play with including purchasing wire, charge controller and all needed Equipment. But I'm starting to fund this whole journey from now on with the sales from my African Cichlid Breeding program I have a windmill generator that I will be using in conjuction with this setup as well. The solar will probably be contributing the most to the bat-bank...

 I have about 14 aquariums total. My 4 largest ones are on the 1st floor (the largest filtration and heating) but the rest and my server computer are all on the second floor of my house. So I'm looking to power at least the filtration of a 110g, 60g, 4chambered 50g farm tank, 40g, 15g 2x 10g (if not the heating or lighting as well) as well as my PC (24" Monitor, 850w PSU w/ Quad Core CPU) and some Room Lighting. Everything is pretty low wattage but I want to have more than enough to play with and expand by adding more Solar Panels and the Same Batteries to the Battery bank.

 P.S. I just want to say Thank You for all of the replies that are to the point and not offensive as it seems pretty regular on other Threads/ Forums.

[Mary B]

$250 a pair with core and tax.