Author Topic: Sad news: Small wind manufacturer closes its doors, but why?? (Read 25006 times)

ChrisOlson · « **Reply #33 on:** February 24, 2014, 09:16:22 AM »

cardamon, unfortunately our Schneider system does not track wind or log it. It is completely standalone from the rest of the power system here. The generators and everything else is integrated into it, including logging current and voltage on L1 and L2, true power and apparent power from the gensets every 5 seconds. Schneider never saw fit to integrate wind with it. Although if there was a suitable wind controller that could talk and be controlled by Xanbus it could be done.

In all fairness, neither wind or solar is cheap when you can get utility power. You will never pay for either one in your lifetime if you break it down to dollars and sense. For off-grid folks who only install solar you are locking yourself in to cycling your batteries every single day. You live off pure batttery power at night and recharge during the day. This is a built-in 365 cycles per year system. Adding a 24/7 power source like wind or hydro reduces the cycling load on your battery. For off-grid folks wind turbines and solar panels are not the most expensive components of the system. Batteries are. Even if that wind turbine trickle charges your batteries at night it reduces the cycling depth for the next day. Doesn't take long to pay for one when the cost of batteries is considered for an off-grid system.

cardamon · « **Reply #34 on:** February 24, 2014, 09:01:04 PM »

Chris,

I certainly agree that renewable energy wont pay for itself, and it is unfortunate that so many PV installers market it that way. I am not sure if they actually believe it or not.

I would disagree with you on the batteries, at least for systems designed now or recently. My wind has been the most expensive component of my system by far. I also dont quite get the huge expensive battery bank everyone seems to have. I think the drastic reduction in PV prices has really changed how systems can be designed now. It used to be you would have a battery bank big enough to cover 4-5 crappy days with essentially 0 input. Now one can just throw enough PV at it to get decent charging on most cloudy days. I had 2 L-16s I got in 2004 and last summer I replaced them with 4. I cant see ever needing more than that even if 4 kids come along. What are people using at night that is using so much power? Sure, if you want to do laundry at night, and run your table saw off your RE system then that is a different story. My .02

ChrisOlson · « **Reply #35 on:** February 24, 2014, 10:05:22 PM »

It all depends on the size of the system. And there are no rules or laws that say you have to live a spartan lifestyle just because you have an off-grid home. The sky is the limit and all it takes is money. Two L-16's would barely be adequate to start the standby generator for this system:

http://youtu.be/gmSceBy39OY

MIgardener · « **Reply #36 on:** March 08, 2014, 07:33:54 PM »

Quote from: ChrisOlson on April 30, 2013, 12:53:04 PM

Don't complain to me. I hate 'em. Can't even put up a wind turbine tower anymore in this county without an engineering stamp on the tower and a conditional use permit. Some places even now require that the turbine itself be UL Listed and you have to apply for a variance for an off-grid wind turbine.

And yet there's literally hundreds of old Aeromotor water pumping windmills scattered around the countryside here. Just about every farmstead has one and some of them, including the one we got, still work and have been pumping water for over 80 years. There wasn't nobody running about back then inspecting everything, but there is today.

Don't ask me how it got that way. I didn't vote for any of 'em.
--
Chris

What I hate the most is that there's no reason for these kinds of laws. If the tower comes down, it's your property that's damaged. Doesn't congresshave anything better to do?

fabricator · « **Reply #37 on:** March 09, 2014, 10:15:30 AM »

It's not congress it is you local unit of government, either county or township that sets zoning ordinances.

Mary B · « **Reply #38 on:** March 09, 2014, 05:35:54 PM »

All the local governments were talked into supporting the same zoning laws as the big cities. Forget the group behind it but it is time to get those laws tossed out and get our freedom to use our own land back.

fabricator · « **Reply #39 on:** March 09, 2014, 06:45:03 PM »

http://www.nlc.org/about-nlc/strategic-planning

Frank S · « **Reply #40 on:** March 09, 2014, 10:16:09 PM »

Quote from: fabricator on March 09, 2014, 06:45:03 PM

http://www.nlc.org/about-nlc/strategic-planning

after looking over the site nowhere in their statement or mission do they mention the one word they should have CITIZENS.
All I see is a consortium attempting to persuade Cities counties Or States to adopt their agenda what ever that may be.
At least that is the way it appears to me.
Thank them very much I do not need or want them near me

Mary B · « **Reply #41 on:** March 10, 2014, 02:05:42 AM »

Look up Agenda 21... those of us who live off the government grid are their targets because we can't be easily controlled by turning off our power

Isaiah · « **Reply #42 on:** March 10, 2014, 03:40:29 AM »

Yes most of the insurance company's and local and state governments are practising the U.N. AGENDA 21. Best go a Google search and read up on it .
Some of the insurance company's are also in the poitick's also , keep an eye on yours.
The Agenda 21 people will be by to see you to oztules probably later than sooner.
In the USA They want you to buy all your needs from the government!!
There are some that will not comply!!!!!!
We all have to remember who started the Insurance racket in the USA, it was none other than Big Al Capone!
Isaiah

DamonHD · « **Reply #43 on:** March 10, 2014, 03:47:46 AM »

Could we please avoid a drift into politics here...

fabricator · « **Reply #44 on:** March 10, 2014, 09:03:50 AM »

Well D, this is a discussion of why a small turbine company went out of business and local zoning ordinances play a large part in whether an individual will even try to go the wind route.

fabricator · « **Reply #45 on:** March 10, 2014, 09:13:04 AM »

Quote from: Frank S on March 09, 2014, 10:16:09 PM

Quote from: fabricator on March 09, 2014, 06:45:03 PM
http://www.nlc.org/about-nlc/strategic-planning

after looking over the site nowhere in their statement or mission do they mention the one word they should have CITIZENS.
All I see is a consortium attempting to persuade Cities counties Or States to adopt their agenda what ever that may be.
At least that is the way it appears to me.
Thank them very much I do not need or want them near me

Citizens are not in their mission statement, helping local units of government avoid any and or all exposure to responsibility for anything is.

Bruce S · « **Reply #46 on:** March 10, 2014, 03:37:27 PM »

Hey ALL!
I sure hope everyone is enjoying the close to spring weather!!

I am very curious why this company is gone too! BUT

I do need to almost get into GM MODE :-(.

Even tho this post is about a possible reason why a wind mill manufacturer had to go out of biz, let's try to keep the politics out of it, by at the very least not naming groups like Agenda 21, and such.
In general I would be right there in the thick of the debate, BUT
Politics is one of those areas we try to keep away from due to the different types and being there are others in countries who cannot enjoy speaking out without the possible retribution from the local po-pos :-/
Thanks for understanding

Mary B · « **Reply #47 on:** March 10, 2014, 04:24:16 PM »

Zoning laws that are way to strict are why I am not putting one up, going to try and sneak in a 12 foot tall yard art type turbine, water pumper replica.

ChrisOlson · « **Reply #48 on:** March 10, 2014, 06:04:36 PM »

Quote from: Bruce S on March 10, 2014, 03:37:27 PM

Politics is one of those areas we try to keep away from due to the different types and being there are others in countries who cannot enjoy speaking out without the possible retribution from the local po-pos :-/
Thanks for understanding

I haven't really seen any county or township ordinances that flat out prohibit residential wind turbines. You just have to meet their requirements on towers. Usually an engineering stamp that says the tower is safe, much like building a new house and you have to meet certain requirements on wiring and construction and so on. And in most cases it has to meet setback requirements so as to not present a hazard to people and property. And then most require a conditional use permit with the conditions being that if the turbine is abandoned you are responsible for taking it down and can't just leave it there.

The people that get elected to be on town boards and county planning commissions are budding amateur politicians that usually want to feel real important and puffed up with all their power. So they enjoy enforcing their laws. All it takes is money and a good lawyer and you can defeat any of 'em, and put 'em in their place and show 'em that they're nothing but puny pipsqueaks. And that's what I enjoy doing. They all work for me around here and call me "sir" when they meet me on the street. Because if they don't I'll do something to remind 'em who has the biggest stick.

ChrisOlson · « **Reply #49 on:** March 10, 2014, 09:21:10 PM »

Quote from: Isaiah on March 10, 2014, 08:51:05 PM

UN Agenda 21 is equal opportunity it is every where in the world ,
Just a couple country's not conquered as yet.
It is time people come together and do something.

STOP with the UN Agenda 21 BS, OK? It has nothing to do with putting up wind turbines in your back yard. Nor not being able to "control" people because they can't shut the power off. Nor anything to do with SWWP locking up the doors. You people don't even know what you're talking about. My wife's home country of Sweden has adopted and implemented UNA 21 in all local governments and there's more people putting up wind turbines there in their back yards than there is here.

Have the conspiracy theorists all been watching too much Jesse Ventura on TV?

electrondady1 · « **Reply #50 on:** March 10, 2014, 09:36:35 PM »

fluoride, we hates it precious,
we hates it.

Bruce S · « **Reply #51 on:** March 11, 2014, 06:13:41 PM »

ChrisO;
Thanks for trying.

-----BEGIN GM MODE-----

Isaiah;
Did you happen to read my post/simple request?
IF not or your on dialup, then PLZ! read it!!
Your two posts , normally would've gotten this thread locked!
HOWEVER, I like to have the person or people be responsible for their actions.
SO LET THIS BE YOUR FINAL WARNING!!!!
One more and we will put you into Read only for whatever period we choose.

----END GM MODE----

ps>>>I removed (deleted your posts) for NOT following the rules and specifically my request.

Mary B · « **Reply #52 on:** March 12, 2014, 04:07:17 PM »

The zoning law here states that all wind towers have to be approved by the turbine manufacturer. So if they don't offer a tower/turbine package to bad.

ChrisOlson · « **Reply #53 on:** March 12, 2014, 04:42:21 PM »

If you built the turbine, then you go get your stamp set and stamp "APPROVED" on it.

Here, the tower AND FOUNDATION has to have an engineering stamp that says it's safe for the loads imposed on it by the turbine. And the new standards call for 134 mph wind speed survival with full ice load on the tower. There's a reason for that.

Recently when ours was all iced up there was 250 lbs of ice on the blades with probably 3-4 tons of ice accumulated on the tower and it was shaking the top of the tower back and forth 3 feet. And she's still standing and running today. That's what engineering analysis is all about and it's nothing to take lightly or think you can do it yourself unless you are qualified to do it. Wind turbines are VERY dangerous machines installed improperly and the main reason for these requirements is to not have spindly guyed pipe setups with guy wires anchored to chunks of wood buried in the dirt, or similar. And I've seen that - and I've also seen some of them come down. And it's not pretty when they collapse.

It's a matter of liability. You can say it's my property and what should anybody care if it comes down on my own property, and I should be able to do what I want. But unless you have your property barricaded, locked and posted as such, anybody coming on to your place has reasonable expectations that they are not walking into a death trap. So if somebody comes to your place for whatever reason, gets out of their car and suddenly a guy wire snaps and a wind turbine comes down and kills them - guess who's liable for it?

cardamon · « **Reply #54 on:** March 12, 2014, 08:20:39 PM »

I think this whole liability concept is the problem. Life often sucks, its not fair, crap happens. Deal with it and stop trying to hold others accountable. I heard on the news a few weeks ago a woman was killed when her carport collapsed after a heavy snow. That sucks. It could also happen by a tree branch, a falling wind turbine tower, utility pole, etc. Even properly engineered structures come down. Those engineers who did the big dig thought it would be prudent to suspend the concrete panels in the tunnel by glued in anchors - Im a "dumb" electrical contractor and that would be the last thing in the world I would have done. Rant over.

ChrisOlson · « **Reply #55 on:** March 12, 2014, 09:27:29 PM »

Quote from: cardamon on March 12, 2014, 08:20:39 PM

I think this whole liability concept is the problem. Life often sucks, its not fair, crap happens. Deal with it and stop trying to hold others accountable. I heard on the news a few weeks ago a woman was killed when her carport collapsed after a heavy snow. That sucks. It could also happen by a tree branch, a falling wind turbine tower, utility pole, etc. Even properly engineered structures come down.

That's not how it works. So you and your kids come over to my place where I got a totally unsafe turbine installation running and the kids are running around playing and having a good time. Suddenly the tower collapses and kills your little child. I just shrug and tell you, "s&*t happens - you'll have to get over it."

No, more than likely I was negligent for putting up such an unsafe contraption in the first place, and negligent for knowing it wasn't safe and not telling your kids to stay out of the fall zone, or have it fenced off so nobody could be near it. And believe me, I've seen some of these turbine installations like this.

The purpose of competent engineering is to minimize the risks. You can never totally prevent them.

cardamon · « **Reply #56 on:** March 12, 2014, 10:16:45 PM »

Quote from: ChrisOlson on March 12, 2014, 09:27:29 PM

Quote from: cardamon on March 12, 2014, 08:20:39 PM
I think this whole liability concept is the problem. Life often sucks, its not fair, crap happens. Deal with it and stop trying to hold others accountable. I heard on the news a few weeks ago a woman was killed when her carport collapsed after a heavy snow. That sucks. It could also happen by a tree branch, a falling wind turbine tower, utility pole, etc. Even properly engineered structures come down.

That's not how it works. So you and your kids come over to my place where I got a totally unsafe turbine installation running and the kids are running around playing and having a good time. Suddenly the tower collapses and kills your little child. I just shrug and tell you, "s&*t happens - you'll have to get over it."

No, more than likely I was negligent for putting up such an unsafe contraption in the first place, and negligent for knowing it wasn't safe and not telling your kids to stay out of the fall zone, or have it fenced off so nobody could be near it. And believe me, I've seen some of these turbine installations like this.

The purpose of competent engineering is to minimize the risks. You can never totally prevent them.

Chris, I am not quite sure what your stance is. Are you saying that there should be regulation/oversight to prevent you from erecting this dangerous tower? Or that if this scenario did happen you should be liable? Should you owe me financial compensation?

My opinion is that I, as the protector of my children and since they are too young to know of certain dangers, should assess the situation and make a decision as to whether they should be allowed near the structure. I would probably take into account the winds at the time, the apparent stability/sway/flex of the assembly, and may ask you how long it has been up and if it was homebrew or not. I really hate scenarios like this anyway because it is such an unlikely rare event that it collapses right at the moment I am there with my kids and right when my kid is where part of it lands. Like i said, things go wrong and sometimes you are in the wrong place at the wrong time. I went to college with a guy who was paralyzed from the neck down because he slipped in one of those little 8" deep 36" diameter kiddie pools. He probably thought he was in the safest place that weekend at home with his kids.

Last summer I had a bachelor party at my place for a friend of mine. Someone asked if there was 120vac power available on top of the windmill tower so we could bring an amp up there and play electric guitar on top of the 80' tower (there is a 6x6 foot platform at the top). I said no but said I could swap some wires around and make it happen. I did and four of us went up the tower with the amp, guitar and a few beers and we "rocked out" for a bit up on top. Nothing bad happened, but say the tower had collapsed. IMO they made the decision to come up, they know I built the tower and am not an engineer. I understand under current law I could be held liable if something went wrong but I dont think that is the way it should be. Two of my friends remained on the ground during this affair - that was their choice too.

ChrisOlson · « **Reply #57 on:** March 13, 2014, 12:10:55 AM »

Quote from: cardamon on March 12, 2014, 10:16:45 PM

Chris, I am not quite sure what your stance is. Are you saying that there should be regulation/oversight to prevent you from erecting this dangerous tower? Or that if this scenario did happen you should be liable? Should you owe me financial compensation?

Yes, I think there should be some sort of oversight for things like this, just like there is with electrical wiring in residences, etc.. If there wasn't any NEC or requirements for electrical, can you imagine the nightmare some people would come up with in wiring their homes? It is a set of standards that must be met to insure that a potentially dangerous thing is not a hazard to people and property.

If I had a wind turbine that was not safe and it killed or injured somebody I would feel that I am morally and legally responsible for it. Utility scale turbines with all their setback and siting requirements are one thing because only trained professionals work around and with them. The general public is not normally allowed around them. Residential wind turbines are another matter because by their very nature they are going to be close to where people are living. Therefore I feel that certain standards should be met for residential turbine installations that insures that they are safe. I have seen very few that are even grounded properly for lightning protection.

I have seen none of these county and/or town small wind ordinances that flat out ban residential wind power systems unless it is in a densely populated area. They just apply standards that the governing body wants to see met, whether it be type of tower stipulated or safety considerations like setbacks from property lines, buildings, overhead utility lines or roads.

Mary B · « **Reply #58 on:** March 13, 2014, 01:56:31 AM »

Yes but the wind loading of a turbine can be calculated and an appropriately sized tower bough that has the PE stamp for the tower and the foundation design. Add in a calculation for worst case ice load and the wind rating for your county and go. Most tower manufacturers rate towers for wind and ice load with x amount of wind. Rohn has design data right on the website for it.

ChrisOlson · « **Reply #59 on:** March 13, 2014, 08:44:20 AM »

Quote from: MaryAlana on March 13, 2014, 01:56:31 AM

Most tower manufacturers rate towers for wind and ice load with x amount of wind. Rohn has design data right on the website for it.

Yes, but not for wind turbines. Tower manufacturers design and rate their towers for static loads. Only a wind turbine manufacturer can can take a tower, say from Rohn, and certify that tower for the dynamic loads imposed by a wind turbine. Rohn usually helps when it comes to things like vibration issues and natural frequency of the structure, or FEA to insure adequate strength to withstand critical overturning moment, etc..

Antenna arrays, which towers are designed for, don't impose the loads on a tower that a wind turbine does. Been thru the whole process with Rohn and TEP (Tower Engineering Professionals) myself three times. I highly recommend TEP if you are looking to have a tower certified for a particular turbine. It only costs about $7,000 if you are able to provide the loading parameters imposed by the turbine (these have to be tested and measured parameters, not calculated). If TEP has to do the testing the cost goes to about $12,000 for a small turbine less than 7 meters. They are very good people to work with when it comes to wind power support structures.

Mary B · « **Reply #60 on:** March 13, 2014, 03:58:37 PM »

"It only costs about $7,000" and that is why small wind has been priced out of afordability

ChrisOlson · « **Reply #61 on:** March 13, 2014, 04:35:03 PM »

Off-grid power typically costs 4-5x what utility power costs per kWh. And generator power can approach 10-11x what it costs for utility power. So for off-grid folks a wind turbine can cut the amount of generator hours you would otherwise accumulate in the winter time and that makes them pay for themselves pretty fast.

Only off-grid folks are able to justify having one (or two, or three).

For anybody else wind power is not practical and has to be considered a hobby. I know people that spend more than $20 Grand on fishin' as a hobby. So the costs of it sort of has to be put into perspective when it is looked at from a hobby standpoint.

There seems to be a notion that anybody should be able to stick up a generator with a big fan on it on a bunch of pieces of pipe held up by cables strung all over tarnation and get "free" power from it. Uhhhhh....... I got news for ya'......... it ain't free. It ain't even cheap. You will never even pay for the magnets in the generator in your lifetime when you can buy utility power for 20 cents/kWh.

electrondady1 · « **Reply #62 on:** March 13, 2014, 07:23:04 PM »

You will never even pay for the magnets in the generator in your lifetime when you can buy utility power for 20 cents/kWh.

what are you paying of magnets?

good thing i bought mine before the price went up !

i was doing some work at a clients house and they had a south west system. it was a two bladed unit on a tapering lattice work tower. grid tied.
professionally installed they seemed happy with it.

ChrisOlson · « **Reply #63 on:** March 13, 2014, 10:01:56 PM »

Say you put up a turbine for $7 Grand by the time you build it, get it on a decent tower, wiring, controllers - everything it takes. It produces 200 kWh/month. But a kWh of AC is different than a kWh of DC because after you lose part of that energy to battery charging and more in conversion losses in an inverter your kWh to AC loads is more like only 150.

At 20 cents/kWh (which is high for most areas in the US except for California) you save a whopping $30 bucks a month on electricity.

How long does it take to recover the cost of the turbine? 19.4 years before you saved in utility cost what the turbine cost.

Only problem is, the turbine is going to need a complete rebuild or replacement long before 19 years is up. It's a never-ending loop that you can't get out of. You end up sticking more money in it to keep it running than you ever make. In the end, when you got utility power you will never get your money out of it. I don't care if it's a Bergey or what have you - I have never seen one that paid for itself in the owner's lifetime unless they got some sort of government grant or subsidy to put it in.

The only place they are practical is off-grid where genset power approaches 80 cents to $1 buck/kWh.

kitestrings · « **Reply #64 on:** March 14, 2014, 09:09:36 PM »

Quote

Someone asked if there was 120vac power available on top of the windmill tower so we could bring an amp up there and play electric guitar on top of the 80' tower (there is a 6x6 foot platform at the top). I said no but said I could swap some wires around and make it happen. I did and four of us went up the tower with the amp, guitar and a few beers and we "rocked out" for a bit up on top.

What, and no one had a camera

?

cardamon · « **Reply #65 on:** March 14, 2014, 10:51:41 PM »

Quote from: kitestrings on March 14, 2014, 09:09:36 PM

Quote
Someone asked if there was 120vac power available on top of the windmill tower so we could bring an amp up there and play electric guitar on top of the 80' tower (there is a 6x6 foot platform at the top). I said no but said I could swap some wires around and make it happen. I did and four of us went up the tower with the amp, guitar and a few beers and we "rocked out" for a bit up on top.

What, and no one had a camera ?

Oh fear not, I have footage. I have been meaning to put it up on youtube.....soon.

My opinion, not that anyone cares no doubt

, is that I could see some approved engineered plans being required for wind turbine towers in populated areas and/or where the tower could falll on adjacent property. If its on my 120 acres in the woods, I should be able to do whatever I want. I can kinda understand the desire/philosophy of the government protecting those who cant protect themselves, like the children of some dumb parents who put the kids' sandbox underneath an inadequate homebrew wind turbine tower.....but its a real slippery slope to me.

News:

Author Topic: Sad news: Small wind manufacturer closes its doors, but why?? (Read 25006 times)