Author Topic: Hugh article on VAWTs  (Read 11661 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

kitestrings

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1376
Hugh article on VAWTs
« on: March 19, 2018, 10:31:12 AM »
Thought I'd share this recent response to a reader (Home Power) from Hugh P. on VAWTs:

https://www.homepower.com/articles/wind-power/equipment-products/ask-experts-vawt-commentary

electrondady1

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3120
  • Country: ca
Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2018, 08:53:47 AM »
i build vertical mills.
they are definitely less efficient than horizontal mills.
i just like the way they look when they spin,
and they spin all the time .




   

SparWeb

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5452
  • Country: ca
    • Wind Turbine Project Field Notes
Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2018, 01:44:05 AM »
Anyone remember the Meriah Windspire?
The NREL got their hands on one to test... it didn't go well.  https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy10osti/47072.pdf
After about 8 months they gave up, during which time it suffered at least 7 failures that required maintenance.
Failures were found in the following areas: blade fasteners falling off, cracked welds, detached blades, inverter burn-out, generator wire insulation failure, overspeeds, bearing failure.
Which means just about everything failed at least once.
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

clockmanFRA

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 952
  • Country: fr
    • Renewable Energy creation
Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2018, 03:00:02 AM »
Wow, !!!

Thanks 'SparWeb', a very interesting report.

Good to see empirical evidence set against the manufacturers claims.

I will stick with my HAWT's 3off Hugh Piggott 12 footers. Although at present 2 need their blades balancing again, winter rain water has got in.
Everything is possible, just give me time.

OzInverter man. Normandy France.
http://www.bryanhorology.com/renewable-energy-creation.php

3 Hugh P's 3.7m Wind T's (12 years) .. 5kW PV on 3 Trackers, (8 yrs) .. 9kW PV AC coupled to OzInverter MINI Grid, back charging AC Coupling to 48v 1300ah battery

Bruce S

  • Administrator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5374
  • Country: us
  • USA
Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2018, 02:47:45 PM »
Too bad Ed (windstuffnow) isn't still posting. His went up and he hardly ever had problems, even was invited to take it to a wind-tunnel for testing. His posting of the out-come may still be around here somewhere.

Other old-timers on here built units and I've yet to read anyone of them failing, of course they may not have but in the early days ( B4 NEOS got well known) people had no problems posting failures, that's how others learned what didn't work

I hate seeing pumped up claims by manufacture's that are more inclined to separate a person's money than to build a useful VAWT.
Having said that , there are HAWT's still around being pushed with the same $$$ separating ideas. One even located here in our state  >:(

Bruce S

A kind word often goes unsaid BUT never goes unheard

electrondady1

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3120
  • Country: ca
Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2018, 08:40:53 AM »
Ed's lenz 2 wind mill was tested in a wind tunnel . it did fine. Ed then went on to build his own  wind tunnel to test different configurations.

« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 09:10:54 AM by electrondady1 »

Bruce S

  • Administrator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5374
  • Country: us
  • USA
Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2018, 09:03:36 AM »
Ed's lenz 2 wind mill was tested in a wind tunnel . it did fine. Ed then went on to built his own  wind tunnel to test different configurations.

That's right! I forgot he had built his own wind tunnel.
I tried reaching out to him late last year, to see what was up with his website( I go there for inspiration, and to purchase kits for budding windmill enthusiasts) but was not able to .

No luck hearing back from him either :(.

Cheers
Bruce S
A kind word often goes unsaid BUT never goes unheard

Adriaan Kragten

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1158
  • Country: nl
Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2018, 01:34:22 PM »
About fifteen years ago someone with a lot of money asked me to design a H-Darrieus type VAWT for him. This project could have given me about three months of paid work. I have spent about one week to do research about all aspects of such a wind turbine and after that week I gave the man the message "forget it". The many problems I met are mentioned in my free public report KD 215 of December 2004: "The Darrieus rotor, a vertical axis wind turbine (VAWT) with only a few advantages and many disadvantages".

One of the main disadvantages is that a normal Darrieus rotor has a negative Cq-lambda curve for low values of lambda. So the generator must also be able to work as a motor to start the rotor. But this requires special electronics if a 3-phase PM-generator is used. In report KD 601 of December 2015, I describe a mechanism to make a H-Darrieus rotor self starting without loosing the advantage that it accepts wind from any direction. It might work but it makes the rotor more complicated and more expensive. So I found a way to solve one of the basic problems but other basic problems still remain. My experience is that if you try to solve one of the basic disadvantages of a Darrieux rotor you very easily create an other new problem. KD 601 also describes a method to find the optimum tip speed ratio and solidity for a H-Darrieus with a symmetrical airfoil.

There are other types of VAWT's like the Savonius rotor and the drag machine but these VAWT's are even worse than the Darrieus rotor in Cp and in the amount of material needed for a certain swept area. The drag machine is described in report KD 416: "Windmills using the aerodynamic drag as propelling force, a hopeless concept".

hiker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1661
  • BIG DOG
Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2018, 04:12:36 PM »
Jerry..also built his own wind tunnel ...in here ..some where...😜.    https://www.fieldlines.com/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=90
WILD in ALASKA

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2865
Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2018, 05:17:37 PM »
One of the main disadvantages is that a normal Darrieus rotor has a negative Cq-lambda curve for low values of lambda. So the generator must also be able to work as a motor to start the rotor.

Have you looked at the helical variants, such as the one in the link from the original post?  As I understand it, they are self-starting.

As I understand it, the problem with starting a Darrieus is that the apparent wind has to be coming from a narrow angle at the the front of a blade for the flow to attach to the blade.  When operating, the flow then enters the interaction at a small angle to, and leaves about parallel to, the chord of the blade.  Even though a little velocity is lost from drag, the net change in the wind direction imposed by the blade makes the velocity component along the chord higher when leaving than arriving, and thus the reaction force tanget to the circumference is forward.

When the blades are spinning at high TSR, the apparent wind is within the narrow attachment angle all the way around the cycle.  The blades get power except for the small part of the cycle when they're moving almost directly up/down wind, and the gain from redirecting the wind is smaller than the drag.  But at lower speeds the wind is only attached for part of the cycle, so it's only powered part way around and loses output.

When stopped the wind hits the blades from some random set of angles and they're mostly not particularly well powered due to lack of wind attachment (or if they DO happen to be facing the right way to pull some power, they move to another angle and lose it again.)  The rotor MIGHT happen to start up, especially if there's a gust (so they're very dangerous unless braked).  But they usually don't.  You have to have a mechanism to apply some other twist, to power them through the angles where they fight against spinning rather than cooperate, to get them to run.

But with the helical design (1/3 turn or a multiple per blade), when stopped, some small region of some blade is always at an angle to achieve attachment and forward thrust, (ditto another portion where the wind is backward to the airfoil but it still works a little bit).  On the averge you have equal amounts of ALL angles of attack, and the lift from the little patch that's got attachment is enough to overcome the average of the wrong-way lifts and drags from all the other angles.  You get a little forward force, which starts the rotor turning, which increases the "from the front" component of the apparent wind, which increases the size of the patch that's powered, and thus (if you don't load it down until it's moving adequately) the mill spools up to operating speed in a positive-feedback loop.

Now there are lots of OTHER issues with a Darrieus.  A big one is vibration, from the constant change in amplitude and direction of forces as the mill goes through a cycle.  The helical design mitigates the vibration of the mount substantially because, on the average, the blades are equally at all angles all the time.  But the force on any patch of the blade still cycles with the rotation, and the center of effort moves along the axis.  So you still get some flexing and some vibration applied to the supporting structure.  (Even if you used two sections with opposite twist you'd still get a bending moment as the centers of effort move in opposite directions.)

So material fatigue is more of an issue than with a HAWT, where the net forces are usually pretty constant at any given set of operating conditions and change gradually.  With the (necessarily) spindly structures of the Darrieus variants, the components aren't well supported against these constant cyclic forces (unlike the less efficient Savonious variants.)  Thus the simplicity of not needing tracking is, IMHO, trumped by the likelyhood of "unscheduled disassembly" and other vibration issues.  Though the Darrieus is closer to the efficiency of a HAWT, making a robust-enough design to survive the weather is tougher than just getting tracking and furling right on a HAWT, and being able to trust it is not in the cards for me.

keithturtle

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 224
  • Country: us
  • Things that fly
    • aftertherapture
Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2018, 07:54:46 PM »
Googlemap of the address shows a windspire-looking unit mounted just feet off the ground.  Whole unit is in the wind-shadow of buildings 200 yds away

They had what appears to be the same unit at Cincinnati Zoo, quit working after a couple years, no output data available

Novelty at best, maybe good for  "green brownie points" with the unknowing masses. 

Turte
soli deo gloria

Ungrounded Lightning Rod

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2865
Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2018, 09:07:27 PM »
... the Meriah Windspire?
The NREL got their hands on one to test... it didn't go well.  https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy10osti/47072.pdf

Looked at the report and found the picture.  Ick!  That thing looks like a wind-powered vibrator.

Adriaan Kragten

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1158
  • Country: nl
Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2018, 03:54:15 AM »
For a Darrieus rotor you need a symmetrical airfoil as the angle of attack is positive when the blade is at the front side and negative when the blade is at the back side. In figure 2 of KD 601, I give the variation of the angle of attack alpha for twelve positions of the blade if the rotor is running with the optimum tip speed ratio of 4.2.

Symmetrical airfoils are stalling at only a small angle of attack alpha, especially when the Reynolds number is low (see KD 601 figure 1, left picture). If the airfoil is stalling, the drag coefficient increases strongly (see KD 601 figure 1, right picture) and the component of the drag causes a negative torque. The angle of attack varies during one revolution but is only small if the blade is running above a certain tip speed ratio as the relative wind speed seen by the blade is mainly caused by the blade speed. For low tip speed ratio's, a blade is stalling at a large part of a revolution and only for a small part of a revolution it has small angles of attack. The positive torque generated by this small part is smaller than the negative torque created by the drag for the stalling part and therefore the total torque is negative. This problem is not solved by giving the rotor a helical shape.

The problem of stalling of the airfoil for low Reynolds numbers is especially relevant for small Darrieus rotors running at low wind speeds. Very long ago, when I I didn't know the Reynolds number, I built a very small Darrieus rotor with a diameter of about 0.4 m and even if it was started with a rope, it never produced a positive torque so it never turned by the wind.

A Darrieus rotor works as a drag machine for very low tip speed ratio's and then it has a little positive torque coefficient. So it may start rotating slowly at very high wind speeds. But if the wind speed suddenly drops, say from 20 m/s to 4 m/s, it means that the tip speed ratio for that rotational speed suddenly increases by a factor 5 and now the tip speed ratio can be in the region for which the Cq-lambda curve is positive. So for this condition the rotor really starts as a lift machine. This has happened in the past for a big Canadian Darrieus rotor for which the brake wasn't functioning.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2018, 08:47:49 AM by Adriaan Kragten »

electrondady1

  • SuperHero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 3120
  • Country: ca
Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2018, 08:59:23 AM »
ed lenz endorsed a vertical axis forum several years ago. it became quite popular .  i don't recall self starting being a problem for those building Darius type mills.  i don't think many were using symmetrical air foils . most were using non symmetrical shapes . many with the lifting surface on the inside . the angle of incidence becomes key to self starting.


topspeed

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 468
  • Country: fi
Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2019, 07:19:28 AM »
i build vertical mills.
they are definitely less efficient than horizontal mills.
i just like the way they look when they spin,
and they spin all the time .
   

On the contrary vertical H-darrieus is 20-30% more efficient than a HAWT propellor.

1 KW size props are only 12-21% efficient ( Cp .12 to .21 ).

It is the Reynolds number that affects them.

Pinson in 1978 already clocked 40% efficiency for a 1KW VAWT.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 09:42:35 AM by topspeed »
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

DamonHD

  • Administrator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 4125
  • Country: gb
    • Earth Notes
Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #15 on: May 31, 2019, 09:33:13 AM »
You are new here.

There are some very strong views about VAWT vs HAWT here, and a lot of practical and theoretical understanding, and you have just wandered into this establishment firmly stating as fact something that many here would say is no such thing, eg as evidenced by research papers and relative lack of deployment.

In any case it's not black and white, and I think it might be better to back off a little and seek opinions.

Rgds

Damon
Podcast: https://www.earth.org.uk/SECTION_podcast.html

@DamonHD@mastodon.social

topspeed

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 468
  • Country: fi
Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2019, 09:38:22 AM »
You are new here.

There are some very strong views about VAWT vs HAWT here, and a lot of practical and theoretical understanding, and you have just wandered into this establishment firmly stating as fact something that many here would say is no such thing, eg as evidenced by research papers and relative lack of deployment.

In any case it's not black and white, and I think it might be better to back off a little and seek opinions.

Rgds

Damon

Yes I know....and hello all !

I have been doing research on this.

Pinson, McDonnell Aircraft and Marius Paraschivoiu have tested these and all these sources indicate that H-darreius is superior when compared to similar sized HAWT propellor.

OTOH seems that HDs do have issues with either self starting, high speed stall or torque at low TSR.

Cps are known to be .40-.51 at best on all the aforementioned.

Pinson et al also had a pitch control....which could be handy.
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

topspeed

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 468
  • Country: fi
Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2019, 10:02:23 AM »
Pitch control in propeller types turns 100 years this year !
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

topspeed

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 468
  • Country: fi
Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2019, 10:08:01 AM »
Pitch control alone does not make HDs super efficient.

This works only at Cp 0.38 at best of conditions...as it has a huge gap in between the wing halves.
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

Bruce S

  • Administrator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5374
  • Country: us
  • USA
Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2019, 10:23:21 AM »
Can we get a clarification of HDs?
I'm in the IT world and know HDs as Hard Drives.

ALSO: When posting numbers, please post your references.

There are people here who are the original builders of VAWTs HAWTs and their variants. These people are pier-reviewed and did so much, that full sized companies have pilfered their plans (LENZ2)

Builders here who post their numbers get preference even over published studies as they are posting real-world numbers.

Bruce S
A kind word often goes unsaid BUT never goes unheard

topspeed

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 468
  • Country: fi
Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2019, 11:15:47 AM »
Ok fair enough !

Enclosed are the Pinson, McDonnell Aircraft and Marius Paraschivoiu tests for Cp.


HD stands for H-Darreus type wind mill !
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

topspeed

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 468
  • Country: fi
Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2019, 11:27:55 AM »
For some reason the H-Darreus data often is missing from wind turbine charts....and they rarely have the Re-number on them !
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

Adriaan Kragten

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1158
  • Country: nl
Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2019, 02:44:50 PM »
About 40 years ago, a Gyromill was installed at the testfield of Energie Anders in Hoek van Holland, The Netherlands. I have visited that testfield at that time and what I remember is that the Gyromill wasn't a normal H-Darrieus rotor as a normal H-Darrieus rotor has fixed blades. The one I have seen had blades for which the blade angle varied during one revolution. The variation was gained by an eccentric and thin rods connected to each blade. Because of this variation, the rotor had a positive starting torque but only if the heart of the eccentric has the correct position with respect to the wind direction. So one problem is solved but a new problem is created and that is that now one needs a vane or another mechanism to make that the heart of the eccentric is positioned correctly with respect to the wind direction.

One should be very suspicious if someone presents Cp-lambda curves with high peak values if the measurements have been performed in a wind tunnel. The only good wind tunnel to perform these kind of measurements is an open wind tunnel because only for an open wind tunnel the wake can expand around the rotor as it also happens in real wind. But all the energy which is put in the wind is lost for an open wind tunnel. Most wind tunnels are therefore closed and this safes a lot of energy. However, for a closed wind tunnel, the subject which is measured must be rather small with respect to the cross sectional dimensions of the measuring section, other wise tunnel blockage will happen. Tunnel blockage results in too high Cp values.

When I was working at the Wind Energy Group of the University of Technology Eindhoven, we have used a closed wind tunnel but we removed the tunnel walls at the measuring section. But later it appeared that this isn't enough to prevent tunnel blockage completely and we measured unrealistic high Cp values (see public report KD 671).   

topspeed

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 468
  • Country: fi
Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2019, 03:56:34 PM »
About 40 years ago, a Gyromill was installed at the testfield of Energie Anders in Hoek van Holland, The Netherlands. I have visited that testfield at that time and what I remember is that the Gyromill wasn't a normal H-Darrieus rotor as a normal H-Darrieus rotor has fixed blades. The one I have seen had blades for which the blade angle varied during one revolution. The variation was gained by an eccentric and thin rods connected to each blade. Because of this variation, the rotor had a positive starting torque but only if the heart of the eccentric has the correct position with respect to the wind direction. So one problem is solved but a new problem is created and that is that now one needs a vane or another mechanism to make that the heart of the eccentric is positioned correctly with respect to the wind direction.

One should be very suspicious if someone presents Cp-lambda curves with high peak values if the measurements have been performed in a wind tunnel. The only good wind tunnel to perform these kind of measurements is an open wind tunnel because only for an open wind tunnel the wake can expand around the rotor as it also happens in real wind. But all the energy which is put in the wind is lost for an open wind tunnel. Most wind tunnels are therefore closed and this safes a lot of energy. However, for a closed wind tunnel, the subject which is measured must be rather small with respect to the cross sectional dimensions of the measuring section, other wise tunnel blockage will happen. Tunnel blockage results in too high Cp values.

When I was working at the Wind Energy Group of the University of Technology Eindhoven, we have used a closed wind tunnel but we removed the tunnel walls at the measuring section. But later it appeared that this isn't enough to prevent tunnel blockage completely and we measured unrealistic high Cp values (see public report KD 671).

I see. The figures above are real life.

There is a bit suspicious data from ANEW ( In Poland ) with efficiency of 70%. As you can see.

It seems to stall after 7-8 m/s ! It does not have a pitch control.

How do you react to that ?
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

MagnetJuice

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 558
  • Country: ca
Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2019, 04:16:12 PM »
I cannot put a tower for a HAWT where I live, so for many years I have been doing research to see if it would be possible to build a small VAWT that I can put in my backyard. I would like to take advantage of some strong directional winds that blow here during the winter months.

That research led me to conclude that a working VAWT is possible. The ideal configuration would be a Darrieus with 3 blades with a small Savonius in the center to help it start in lower winds. The blade NACA profile would be 0012, 0015 or 0018, depending on the speed that you design it for. The speed and torque of the turbine can be controlled by adjusting the height to width ratio.

Once you have that, then you design and build a low RPM axial flux alternator that that matches that speed and torque.

I know that VAWT's can't match HAWT's in performance. But if you have the winds and can't put up a tall tower, then I see no problem with people building a small VAWT to experiment, have fun and generate a small amount of power.

A lot of those charts found on the Internet were put out by dead long gone manufacturers of VAWT's exaggerating their numbers, or by University students and professors sitting at their desk dreaming and doing computer simulations.

topspeed, if you can find data derived from REAL, operating turbines, please post it. We are interested in seeing it.

Ed
What can I do TODAY that would make TOMORROW a better world?

JW

  • Development Manager
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 4049
  • Country: us
    • Flashsteam.com
Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2019, 04:31:53 PM »
I am reminded of something that Flux once said, we miss him here due to a medical condition.

"Just because its spinning doesn't mean its making any power"

MagnetJuice

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 558
  • Country: ca
Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2019, 05:20:21 PM »
Here is a design that I did a few years ago


If anybody finds this interesting, they are welcome to use it.

Ed
What can I do TODAY that would make TOMORROW a better world?

CraigM

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 205
  • Country: us
Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2019, 06:39:10 PM »
Quote
On the contrary vertical H-darrieus is 20-30% more efficient than a HAWT propellor.

Nearly every commercial wind farm uses a three blade HAWT. They are in business to generate electricity and make money. I'm guessing they have done their homework.
Brain engaged in Absorption Charge Mode... please wait, this may take awhile.

SparWeb

  • Global Moderator
  • Super Hero Member Plus
  • *****
  • Posts: 5452
  • Country: ca
    • Wind Turbine Project Field Notes
Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2019, 09:32:48 PM »
Hello Topspeed,
I appreciate your enthusiasm, and kinda feel bad for putting a damper on it.  Truth is, VAWTs don't work well.
Please do not post old graphs which we've all seen before, based on bad data and unrealistic conditions.
Photos of interesting machines my spark comments, but you should not mistake that for interest.  It's just a reaction.  Not always a good one.

I have done many tests of VAWTs myself.  I spent 2 years building VAWT's and flying them with instruments that collected performance data which I analyzed.  I've even built the type of dual-VAWT that MagnetJuice wants to build.

I can dump the graphs on you, but only if you intend to read them.

The bottom line is:  "no worthwhile energy produced"

I'm still happy that you joined Fieldlines, and if you keep reading and want to engage on building your own projects, we can promise that we do take an interest in that.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2019, 10:57:57 PM by SparWeb »
No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
System spec: 135w BP multicrystalline panels, Xantrex C40, DIY 10ft (3m) diameter wind turbine, Tri-Star TS60, 800AH x 24V AGM Battery, Xantrex SW4024
www.sparweb.ca

topspeed

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 468
  • Country: fi
Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #29 on: June 01, 2019, 02:21:47 AM »
Hello Topspeed,
I appreciate your enthusiasm, and kinda feel bad for putting a damper on it.  Truth is, VAWTs don't work well.
Please do not post old graphs which we've all seen before, based on bad data and unrealistic conditions.
Photos of interesting machines my spark comments, but you should not mistake that for interest.  It's just a reaction.  Not always a good one.

I have done many tests of VAWTs myself.  I spent 2 years building VAWT's and flying them with instruments that collected performance data which I analyzed.  I've even built the type of dual-VAWT that MagnetJuice wants to build.

I can dump the graphs on you, but only if you intend to read them.

The bottom line is:  "no worthwhile energy produced"

I'm still happy that you joined Fieldlines, and if you keep reading and want to engage on building your own projects, we can promise that we do take an interest in that.


Thank you SparWeb !


I appreciate you having me here.

I actually have built two H-Darreius prototypes and I am seeking funding to make a third one with meaningful re-number.

I enclose a photo of one I came across in the internet.

My innovation actually corrects the problem it faces having the extra Savonius on it.

System I have is a 2 blade system with a new kinda actuator on it. I just concentrated on things that were uncovered in the McDonnell Aircraft study in 1978. They possibly run outa funding in the project..or the oil crisis ended. Their conclusion is interesting.
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

topspeed

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 468
  • Country: fi
Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2019, 02:25:22 AM »
I cannot put a tower for a HAWT where I live, so for many years I have been doing research to see if it would be possible to build a small VAWT that I can put in my backyard. I would like to take advantage of some strong directional winds that blow here during the winter months.

That research led me to conclude that a working VAWT is possible. The ideal configuration would be a Darrieus with 3 blades with a small Savonius in the center to help it start in lower winds. The blade NACA profile would be 0012, 0015 or 0018, depending on the speed that you design it for. The speed and torque of the turbine can be controlled by adjusting the height to width ratio.

Once you have that, then you design and build a low RPM axial flux alternator that that matches that speed and torque.

I know that VAWT's can't match HAWT's in performance. But if you have the winds and can't put up a tall tower, then I see no problem with people building a small VAWT to experiment, have fun and generate a small amount of power.

A lot of those charts found on the Internet were put out by dead long gone manufacturers of VAWT's exaggerating their numbers, or by University students and professors sitting at their desk dreaming and doing computer simulations.

topspeed, if you can find data derived from REAL, operating turbines, please post it. We are interested in seeing it.

Ed

Ed here is the Kracow based ANEW Institutes M-1.

Looks interesting to me.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2019, 11:51:00 AM by topspeed »
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals

MagnetJuice

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 558
  • Country: ca
Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2019, 02:44:44 AM »
topspeed, don't let anyone discourage you. Start building something, even if it is small. You'll learn and have lots of fun at the same time.

Ed
What can I do TODAY that would make TOMORROW a better world?

topspeed

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 468
  • Country: fi
Re: Hugh article on VAWTs
« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2019, 02:49:26 AM »
topspeed, don't let anyone discourage you. Start building something, even if it is small. You'll learn and have lots of fun at the same time.

Ed

Thanks...I am on it Ed ! !
These wind turbines must for that reason in a deeper sense be of a timeless beauty, so that they do not in three or four decades hence burden a later generation with a heavy task of removing angular skeletons.....

Ulrich Hütter

Aerodynamics is highly educated guessing, worked out to 5 decimals