Not in MY Back Yard!

[valterra]

Maybe I am over-reacting?

On my way to work, I saw "Hinn's Home Supply" with what looked like a small wind generator on a stand out in front of the street.  Then I saw a sign with the URL:

http://www.nebraskawindpower.net/

"Wow!  Someone right here in the area is selling wind turbines!" I thought.

Unfortunately for me, I went to the URL.  I can't see any way that I am wrong in seeing this as 100% scam.  Even a brief google search for "windmaster" yields tons of scam reports.  And this "FreeTricity" company seems to have deleted their own website (http://www.freetricity.com)

Thank goodness for Google's archiving.  Apparently, according to this blog, these guys are going to be right in my back yard.  Grr.

Why am I mad?  Because I have a rooftop wind turbine that I made myself.  I KNOW how much wind is up there.  According to their charts, their genny makes 30A and 30V (900 watts) at 200 RPM with its little (approx) 4' blades, mounted on your roof.  This genny, mounted on your roof, according to them, "Can and WILL spin your meter backwards."

Correct me if I am wrong, but there simply isn't that much wind to be had at that location, at that rotor size, in a realistic amount of wind.  Dan Fink tells us that a 5 foot swept area at 10MPH has merely 100 watts of available energy - and let's not forget ole Mr. Betz.  And I think we'd all agree that if you buy something from "The Dans," you will be getting something that performs AS SPECIFIED.

I'm a little sore about this anyway after attending the Cass County (Nebraska) fair and speaking with a board member from the "Nebraska Wind Energy Association" who is helping create a wind farm here, as well as help the schools with the "Wind for Schools" group.  He kept showing me all these neat "new designs" that were coming out - VERTICAL AXIS GENNIES - and how his friend the engineer was going to get a patent for his new VAWT.

Am I over-reacting?  I can't afford to pay to go to the fair to check this guy out, but this kind of garbage will make for much frustration and cynicism from otherwise well-intentioned people who try to delve into wind power for political, economical or other reasons.

PS.  You pluralize the word "Photo" WITHOUT an apostrophe.   Double GRR.

Editors note: removed due to the fact these people have false and misleading advertising (a betz-beater), and are well known for suing discussion board owners when they get negative press. No reason to help these idiots with any more free publicity here!

[DamonHD]

Get your defence in early: notify the Better Business Bureau and whoever else might be interested in good-natured public getting scammed, and tie them up in read tape for a bit at least if they're telling porkies...

Rgds

Damon

[valterra]

Yeah, I hear ya.  If I had the wherewithal, I would visit the guy's stand at the fair and ask questions.  If I give him the benefit of the doubt, from what I've read about the parent company, this individual seller is PROBABLY a well-intentioned person who has been sold "territory rights" for his "distributorship," and is there is a lot of hand-holding at this stage of his business.  

I think in the long run, HE will get taken for more money than the customers.  Again, just my opinion.

I just don't see how I could get 900 watts from 4-5 foot swept area and 200 rpm.  

Let's make this a team effort.  

DanB, could you make me one of these alts?  

Flux, could you design it?  

Ed, can you re-write your blade program to reflect these amazing new numbers?  

Glen, I will need a redesign of your dump load controller that can dump 30 amps plus.

Can someone call Mr. Betz and Hugh Piggot to let them know that they were wrong?

Sorry - I'm being a smart a$$ now.

[tanner0441]

Hi

I followed your link and the shape of those super efficient blades look the same as my low torque don't like turbulance bits of sewer pipe.  I would swot up and ask him to have a public meeting, and ask pertinent questions and which version of the laws of physics he is working from.

good luck

Brian

[valterra]

4 foot, 2 inch PMA that does 900W at 200 RPM.  

[valterra]

To my untrained eye, they look a lot like Terry's blades, which is what got my attention.  But Terry doesn't make outrageous claims on his website.

[ghurd]

That's Amazing!

I may have to get myself one of those distributorships.

I'm not clear on the design voltage.  Kind of looks like a "Stall-Master" to me.

The "photo's" in the picture section are funny. Put a windmill between the house and the trees?

G-

[valterra]

I disagree, GHurd!  I think that's a good choice.  It's easier to take clear pictures of objects that AREN'T moving.   :-D

[wooferhound]

And there were only 4 items in the Main Menu . . .

Catalog - man that stuff is high priced

Press - which is just the text of the website rewritten

Pictures - Some photos that don't make any sense

Photos - I guess photos are different than pictures

I write them an Email that asked . . .

"I was wondering . . . How is it possible for your small turbines to produce more power than is available in the wind ?"

I don't really expect an answer but if I get one I'll post it here.

[CmeBREW]

I don't even get mad anymore-- because there are HUNDREDS of so-called 'Windmill Companies' doing the same deceptive tricks and making a lot of money from people who believe them. (Hawts and Vawts)

What they all commonly do is show the OPEN VOLTAGE which is about meaningless and the SHORTED AMPS which is totally deceptive and meaningless also. Sometimes they will even multiply these two (incorrect) numbers together to get total watts!

Of course they almost Never tell you about this. And usually they put it in a Wind tunnel (which is practically a Fantasy) and  get dream WATTHOURS , or they make the mill sound as if it is a 1K  (instantaneous) machine when it really just AVERAGED one KW hour in a wind tunnel.  More terrible deception.

Hopefully goverment will finally pass some decent laws for a change and start fining these crooks 50 grand each time they use deceptive advertising.

It makes me sick also, because families are being cheated out of there hard earned money and many times people don't have the time to study about wind power to know whats possible.

[valterra]

You'll probably get an autoresponse first.  That is what I got.  Once the conversation is done, I will post it here, if they make false claims.

[valterra]

LOL - I didn't even notice "Pictures" and "Photos" together!

HA!

We should all be sure to keep our wind generators and solar panels out of sight!

Someone at my work joked about how someone could steal all of our solar panels.  I said, "Yeah, but a solar panel isn't exactly the kind of thing you can keep hidden."

[valterra]

What really grates on me is that I (like many of you) would actually like to try to get into this business in some way.

But there is way too much snake oil being sold.

As for government regulations, that sounds great, but The Dans stuff isn't exactly UL rated, and I'd hate to see the home-brew tinkering element disappear.

[valterra]

You wrote:

"It makes me sick also, because families are being cheated out of there hard earned money and many times people don't have the time to study about wind power to know whats possible. "

I mentioned to my dad that you can't put a small wind generator (like mine) on your roof and expect to run your whole house.  He said, "Why not?"

That's not stupidity - it is just regular ignorance.  You can't know everything about EVERYTHING!  So these well-intentioned people get screwed out of their money AND disillusioned at the same time.

---- Tangent time ------

(Sometimes the people are to blame.  I was in a health food store, and there was a lady there who was reading some diet book.  "Dr. So-and-so says 'No Flour, No Carbs,' so tell me what I need to buy here so I can make muffins."  

I told her that when her book says "Whole Wheat," then whole wheat flour is okay.  She says, "If it says FLOUR, I can't eat it."   She didn't want to buy SOY flour (used in a lot of low-carb diets) because you have to mix it 25%/75% or something.  No.  She wanted Whole Wheat that didn't say Flour.  I told her that if you take whole wheat and grind it up with your teeth, it makes flour.

You know what she ended up buying? (remember - to use instead of flour to make muffins and brownies)  Wheat Berries!  That's whole wheat kernels.  That's like buying whole dry corn kernels to replace cornmeal in your cornbread recipe.

That's one diet that is going to fail.

----- End Tangent -----

That's why I'm getting sick of helping people with wind stuff (not on this board - in real life).  Because everyone "knows some guy who said"  or "saw some new product"  etc.   Either stuff works or it doesn't.  Either your "Forever Wind-Powered Electric Car" idea is going to work or you are an idiot.  There's no middle ground as far as I'm concerned.    :-)  

By the way - Check out that last link.  You guys will LOVE IT.

[tanner0441]

I bet that car is good in a bird strike, and what about pedestrians. do they realise the turbulance all that hand waving is creating round those rear fans.

[tomtmook]

The folks at altenergystore.com (a reputable firm) run a forum on their website.  Someone posted a note asking about freetricity, whether the numbers were real and the company reputable.  It became a seriously long thread, with several others asking about it and many others debunking freetricity's claim.  

The "owners" of freetricity also chimed in citing confusing claims about the amount of energy produced, etc.  As was stated earlier, mixing up open circuit volts and short circuit amps to get magic watts.  They took it even further, trying to say that regardless of the battery attached to it, a 1200 watt inverter will always put out 1200 watts.  

After getting banned from the forum and changing names, the "owner" finally quit posting.  But not until after attempting to intimidate several of the serious posters with threats of lawsuits and more.  

My suggestion would be to dot your i's and cross your t's when dealing with these guys. Keep copies of any letters to the BBB, and all other correspondence.  Apparently they've added pepper spray to their snake oil.  

btw, I LIKE that use for NIMBY!

[CmeBREW]

BTW, I am not calling anyone in particular a "crook" or scam artist.  I just hate what I believe are deceptive and misleading claims.  I wish they would specify the ratings accurately and give the average Watthours in a typical, common wind location.  

[Norm]

You mean to tell me that my VAWT powered

direct drive rotary mower may not work?

   LOL

[DamonHD]

Not unless you run really fast! B^>

Rgds

Damon

[richhagen]

You can't get more power from the wind than there is available.  If you claim to then you are either ignorant of the physics of it, or if you are aware that it is a lie, then you are a 'crook' or 'thief'.  It will simply result in disappointed customers who are likely to be disillusioned with the prospects for wind power.  Rich

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/1/23/24447/3633

[valterra]

I agree with that.  But like I said, if you give the guy the benefit of the doubt, he may be some poorly informed enterprising guy who is trying to make a living - unaware that he's selling a dud (and being SOLD a dud of a business).  I bet it is his house that has the unit mounted on it.

The guy who runs the generator company knows.  And I say SHAME!   :-)

[w9kh]

Check out the BBB complaints on Freetricity.  Looks like they can't even keep their distributors happy!

[WilliamJ]

LOFL

It always amazes me how the internet's minions of misinformation always believe they are the purveyor's of truth when just the opposite is true (obviously just another example of the least gifted again thinking they are the most).

Why don't one of you "geniuses"  explain how a 150 dia prop can produce 1.5 mega watts as does one of the smaller turbines I work on given that "funky math" you all keep producing. This question should be particularly fun for you swept area folks.

Take your time now, accuracy counts.

[valterra]

huh?

[TomW]

valtera;

He obviously joined to post this cryptic comment but neglected to place it in any context obvious to anyone but "hisownself".

I expect it will never get a response [your reply].

Tom

[ghurd]

I took it to mean he thinks the thing will put out 900W, and maybe up to 1150W.

And that we don't believe 900W is possible from 4' 2",

even though Jerry broke 1000W, at 12V, with a scrap garbage disposal, iron losses, high resistance, high reactance, cheap bearings, antique hard drive magnets, a fan blade hub, and 4' 2" plastic blades.  (must have been darn windy)

Plus Jerry's made power at a lower windspeed than the 1.5MW stuff starts turning.

Or maybe he thinks those blades can make 900W at 200RPM?  And 110W at 100RPM?  14W at 50RPM?

[valterra]

Who knows!  I just want to see someone

Laugh

On

The

Floor

Laughing  (LOFL).     :-)      This must be the same guy who made the web page with the "pictures" section and the "photo's" section.   :-)

[twamaso]

Hello,

I can add a little experience to this thread. I am one of those "well intentioned" guys that paid for a territory and a distributorship. Carl Vettes, AKA Carl Vetts, AKA Carl Vetters, AKA Dan Witman, AKA Dan Witham, AKA John Hall is a plain and simple scam artist. He signs you up and then delays shipping you anything for as long as possible using whatever excuse he can. Then no matter how many units you paid for he sends you just one. This takes the case out of the legal system and into civil. Myself and another distributor just got back from California. We filed in small claims against him. So far he has dodged one court date by hiding from the summons and dodged the second by getting a continuance as we try to wade through his aliases. I have been fighting with him on various forums for almost a year. His typical mode of operation is to create several alts on a board and attack anyone that speaks against him while claiming that he has one that is working great. I think you guys have already met one of them as several of them "lofl". Fact is that the unit is designed to separate you from your money, not produce power. You can find lots of entertaining back and forth on scam.com, ripoffreport.com altenergystore.com, movinglikewater.com . If anyone ever stops at that store then you should give the guy my number. If anyone would like to actually talk with me then feel free to give me a call. I am near Dallas so central time zone.

Troy

972-979-6185

[robert]

I am the other person Troy is talking about and I would like to corroborate his account of this story. We along with several others have been duped by this person ( Carl) and his company ( freetricity) for several months now. I feel for the Neb distributor because sooner or later, he'll realize what happened, and it is an awful feeling to know you've been had.  Carl ( Freetricity owner)did act like he had just found out about these lawsuits even though it has been talked about in all of these forums, and he had been served by both Troy and I. For someone who gets on forums and talks a tough game, he sure doesn't want to see us or anyone else in court. I would advise anyone thinking about doing business with this person to take all of this into account. Anyway, as Troy stated, we will be in court again on Nov. 6th or whenever it is. I am resolved as is Troy to seeing this case come to fruition, and justice finally taking place.

[valterra]

I actually DID see a thread on a message board.  Man, it was like a soap opera.

One supporter was supposedly a police officer.  Was supposedly in posession of a unit that powers his entire garage and also his electric gate.  

They all accused the person calling foul of being a liar because he wouldn't supply the serial number on the back of his unit.  Nevermind basic physics (38" blades simply won't average 1kwh sitting on your roof).... since he didn't have a serial number, he must have been lying.

You can usually see the next step in specious arguments like that.  What is your serial number?  A HA! That isn't  a real serial number!  

Some time soon I will post what the owner of this franchise wrote me.  Basically, the large unit averages 1kwh continuously by his math.

Sorry DanB, TLG Terry, and Ed Lenz... looks like y'all are going out of business.    Just kidding of course.

[valterra]

(I don't have the initial email that I sent)

ME:   I would love to turn my meter backwards! How much energy can i make? Do you have specifications for the different products? I am hoping to run my AC and heater for free!

NEBRASKA WIND POWER:   Depending on the wind it will produce roughly 400 to 700 KW Hours per month

ME:  That sounds really cool. You said depending on the wind. How fast does the wind need to go? Like if the wind is going 10 or 15 miles per hour would that be enough?

It is really windy at my place, like 10 mph on a windy day. And if there is a storm, it blows like 50. But there aren't a lot of storms.

I couldn't find any info on your site. Does it have to spin very fast? I dont want anyone to get hurt or to scare my neighbors.

Speaking of neighbors, i dont want to get in trouble with my homeowners association. Does it have to be out in the open or can I put it in a less noticible place?

I am really sorry for all the questions. I saw your stand at the fair but wasn't able to stop by because my kids were already getting too antsy! If you have kids, you know what i mean!

ME:  Sorry - ANY of them will make 400 to 700 watts (sic) per month, or just the big grid tie one?

NEBRASKA WIND POWER:  The Grid Tie unit will but the others are less on the Catalog page on the website is shows the different models and there capabilities.  It is made to be mounted on the side of a house or on the Eave trusses.  It is very quite and the system is similar to a ceiling fan so it crashing down is very unlikely, in High winds over 100 MPH or a Tornado maybe a problem but everyone is taking shelter at that point As long as your association accepts satellite dishes it should accept this, however they are probably inflamer with the product.  If you paint it the same color as your roof it would be hard to notice.  It doesn't make any sound unless the wind is over 40MPH, then it is only a whooshing sound.  You can purchase it on the Website on the Catalog page.