Bedini motor discussion

[charged]

Here's the main page on John Bedini's website dealing with radiant energy. Links to the monopole motor discussion and other energy pages are all on this page.

http://www.icehouse.net/john1/intro.html

Here's the simple project page that describes the basic regauging motor as well as a second-stage model that collects the motor's emf and recharges a secondary battery as it runs.

http://www.keelynet.com/bedmot/bedmot.htm

Here's the "local" thread material.

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2003/11/12/8365/3048

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2003/12/14/234949/41

[Caballo]

Do not believe that it is possible to obtain real (i mean full-looped independed system, of course) over-unity from such kind of devices.

The same - on the Bearden's MEG account.

[charged]

Fortunately, these systems are not based on religious faith before they will operate. "belief" is not a component in proper system function.

It's possible to fully loop a system through multiple, discontinuous processes when segments of that loop are open to collect ambient energy.

A heat pump is one of the best examples. You apply 1 unit of mechanical input and it leverages/pumps multiple units of heat which can be concentrated to produce higher, usable potential energy. User input is small and energy delivered back to the user for that small investment is much larger.

A wind generator is a more passive system when it comes to "user input". But, once constructed (user input), it absorbs enough energy to run itself (machine is powered) AND generate excess power (transformation and delivery of ambient energy).

All conventional energy sources are resident in our observable 3-D world. Current M-theory strongly indicates that there are at least 7 other dimensions that are "curled up" from our perspective. There is technically nothing preventing free flow of energy to or from those dimensions given the proper device to generate a "gating" effect.

Bedini's systems seem to be providing such a gate.

Many people have had trouble duplicating his systems because they choose to modify the devices based on their own "technical expertise". This usually results in utter failure since the machines are not working on the principles that most people "believe" are at work.

A Bedini motor/gen system is not what it appears to be. Looking at the diagram, your imagination will likely not produce an accurate model of the machine's effects. I know this much first hand as it was a hurdle I had to jump before I built my first working model.

[JW]

Hi Charged,

 Wow thats quite a statement -Bendini's systems seem to be providing such a gate-

  Not to sure about M- theory... Its just like when some one tries to tell me there's such a thing as a 5-axis milling machine, theres only 3-axis in the real world, but yes to make it easier to understand, there could be 3 axis and two other that you could call "axis's".

 see you got 3D plus time, time is the fourth dimmension. I would like to know how energy can be harvested from time? or the so called 6 dimensions left.

 You must understand I am a thermodynamist. for the past coupla days I been checking these links. I honestly believe you can confiqure a gen-motor that will approche 99% of running itself, and with a battery time table.

 you could cycle lead acid batterys, in such a way that you could profit(in an energy sense) from the rest period and gain some mystery(chemical) energy from the batterys. couple that with a motor that "almost" runs itself, and hey you've got an anomoly. Actually this is what Id do in an electric car.

 If the bendini motor actually had an energy profit margin, it would be due to inerta... But it does not, since you yourself state start-up and run modes have equal current draw?

 Here's an example of the kind of stuff I read, well just for fun.

 They discovered that the wormhole could be used as an energy generator-- it could produce useful energy. You could, for example, pass photons or particles through the wormhole and have them exit with more energy than they went in with. As we saw earlier, there is a simular process in the case of blackholes, the penrose process. In that case, energy was extracted from the blackhole. But where is the energy comming from in this case? It obviously has to come from the wormhole itself; as energy is extracted, the wormhole must lose an equivalent amount of energy. the easiest way to do this would be to put some charge near one of the mouths. the electric field from the charges would then thread its way through the wormhole, producing an energy generator. Charged particals could then be fed in one end and come out the other end with more energy than they went in with. Again, the energy comes from the wormhole itself. ISBN-0-306-43966-2  page 227.

 Although the bedini motor is quite intriguing, it seems to be designed to run itself without a power input for a long time, can you tell me if the design of the bendini motor may "ever" evolve enough to run my 3000watt inverter, and actually power something else, with substantial measure? Because my inverter doesnt require belief to operate either.

 -JW

 

[charged]

Yikes.

Yes, I believe it might "evolve" into many different things if people begin to dabble with it a bit.

I once built a small vertical axis wind machine that looked a bit like a pinwheel.

It consisted of four cardboard notebook binders attached to 4 horizontal arms.

Each binder had a string across the edges so that it could open no more than about 45 degrees.

When you stick it out in the wind, the wind catches and opens the binder on one side, pushing the assembly around. All binders heading into the wind are shut and offer little resistance.

Essentially, until the wind blows, there is no "wind machine", only some notebook binders sitting there on sticks. Adding some wind, each binder, in turn, opens, thus momenarily becoming a passive energy-rectifying transfer device with it's intercepted energy then being transferred to the axle shaft.

What I'm getting at is that we feel free to accept the idea of purely mechanical forces in our environment being captured through passive entrainment. Yet, we have difficulty believing that the same can be done with electrical or magnetic forces in that same environment.

There will never be any "defying" of the laws of thermodynamics.

There's no need.

The term "perpetual motion" is nonsensical and the term "over unity" should just be replaced with "C.O.P." figures. The only working machines in the known universe are those that tap energy from one source and transform it to another form, doing work.

All machine efficiencies should be rated using C.O.P. alone

(power output to user)/(user input)

Obviously it's better when those energy sources are FREE for us to use, or very close to it. I almost wish I lived next to the garbage dump, just so I could tap the methane that the city wastes on an open gas release torch.

In your minds eye, at least try to imagine a small-footprint electromagnetic device that draws a very small amount of energy from a battery. Using that small amount of power it builds a larger(than the device itself) cross-section EM "passive particle entrainment zone", drawing in a larger amount of the ambient energy and concentrating it in a storage device of some sort. The device itself would be the analog of a wind machine hub. The "collection zone" would be the analog of the blades, mounted to catch the wind, having a much large cross-section than the hub itself does. Now, imagine that the blades were set up so that it required a small battery to "unfold" them from the hub, like a flower in the sun. When you disconnect the battery, the blades just fold back into the hub.

Now you should pretty clearly understand what I'm getting at.

As with any other natural energy flow, one must only place a device of the proper design "in the way" in order to extract some of it's power.

No energy is truly "free". But, if you can passively collect it, it gets a little more "free" with each passing minute.

[Caballo]

"Fortunately, these systems are not based on religious faith before they will operate. "belief" is not a component in proper system function."

Ok. But then why it was not looped?

Ok. I will try explayn how some people achieve "overunity". They plug digital A-, V, and wattmeters and count gain with the most pleasant way.

Things are that most of digital tools despite their over-exactness, give big mistakes when deal with non-direct and non-sinusoidal currents. In any cases that mistake may reach up to few times!

For example - not sure you may exactly estimate fly-back voltage on an usual TFB with the most of digitals.

In my practice it was showing something about 11 V instead of real 6, measured with an old good arrow voltmeter - good reason do not use these modern digitals.

So people build any circuits that give non-sinusoidal output, count it with digitals and get perpetuum-mobiles!

But still can not loop them :-(

Guess, why? :-)

[charged]

I tried to explain in the clearest terms possible. You're response makes absolutely no sense in the face of my explanation.

Anyone that tries to directly loop a generator output directly back to the input, probably doesn't know what they are looking for.

"Perpetuum-mobile" is a nonsensical term that should be erased from the dictionaries of the world. It doesn't exist except as a way for "intellectuals" to ridicule energy systems that they don't yet understand.

The only thing that exists are energy COLLECTION systems. You collect energy using an artificially broad cross-section collector and then focus that energy into a smaller space, increasing the useful potential. Any windmill does this. Any heatpump does this. A magnifying glass in the sun does this.

Arrogance precludes understanding.

I know not all, therefore I seek.

[Radomike]

  There are more things in heaven and earth than dreamed of in our philosophies.

(excuse the horendous paraphrase)

  Don't stop seeking.

[Caballo]

Ok. Let it will be just an energy collection.

As we see, to collect this energy we have to spend some energy - I see right now at the Bedini's US 02707357 (http://www.icehouse.net/john1/motor22.jpg)

and Bearden's US 6,362,718 (http://www.icehouse.net/john1/meg2.jpg)

- am I right?

The most important question is - will we spend more energy then receive or receive more then spend?

In the 1 case we dial just with an usual motor (Bedini's patent) or transformer (Bearden's patent), in the 2 case we have both generators that give us energy from it is not important where.

But, if we receive more energy than spend, we can spend part of that new energy and remove all external sources of energy, am I right? An usual shool mathematics allow us to do this.

But all the people inventing overunity (Ok, I will not say "perpetuum mobiles") devices do not loop them, just claym that they have overunity or if you also do not like word "overunity", excess of the received energy above spent.

They also may use some old tricks, like using of a cheap low-speed digital meters in measuring of active non-sinusoidal currents, pulling time - when they use a few (one works, other is charged) batteries (by the way, capacity of these batteries are big enough to work during years (such kind of devices was used in old electronic clocks) - nobody will wait so long), some other effects like lighting of LEDs and fluorescents with low-duty currents (in many cases they (because of eye integration properties - looks like you see a movie. You do not see discret images) light so bright as being feeded with a DC, although consumpt times less energy), etc.

The only thing they can not to do - loop these devices, just because they receive less energy then spend.

And because they can not do this, you say about (my?) arrogance?

[charged]

Sorry, I was speaking of human arrogance in general terms, even my own.

What I'm saying is that until you build it and study it, you won't understand it. It's not what it appears to be.

If you're attempting to take a standard transformer and feed it back upon itself directly, you get nothing but heat and a dead battery.

But, if you build one of these systems and OBSERVE the properly tuned driving circuit in action and OBSERVE the tranformer activity and then OBSERVE what's happening at both batteries, you'll come to the same conclusion that I did.

I'm saying that if you play around with it you'll learn much more than you expected to.

[Caballo]

You are right again. But I will not change my opinion about Bedini's motor just because I well know such kind of engines. Look at one of them at the http://www.membrana.ru/images/invent/1072434354.jpeg

That device contain a clockwork mechanism from the old Soviet clocks "Slava" at its top part.

Electronic circuit is identical to Bedini's one, a couple of permanent magnets age glued to rocking (instead of rotating, but this is a clocks!) rotor, etc.

You may see the time when this mechanism was made (date printed on the only BJT in this circuit) - (19)75. That is true.

An usual 1.5V (appr. twice more then AA) battery was feeding such clocks during a couple of years...

By the way, author of article on this page (http://www.membrana.ru/invent/?1072434354) claims he invented how to transfer energy by one core - you may see added by him small RF transformer, variable capacitor and high frequency coil at the bottom of this device.

I am smiling on such kind of "inventions". Yes, that will work, but that is not something new.

But some thing make me actually serious, for example Faraday/Tesla/de Palma unipolar generators.

Nobody can explain what is that, and nobody argue that works. There are doubts about their overunity, but no doubts these are unexplainable generators.

And the last thing about all that new energy - there are so much fraud around that.

Some people swear at the oil mafia, but propose obviously non-working solutions, so I suspect they are hired by the same oil mafia.

So be careful - do not believe humans, right like I am doing :-)

[mercurous]

I am building the bedini motor outlined in the mono-pole19.jpg picture on his index100 page.  Right now, I am just trying to get the motor function working but I am running into a strange problem that I can't sort out by myself.  I am a newbie EE just out of school and have very little real experience with non-ideal behavior of bjts.  

Right now, I just have the trigger and driving coils hooked up.  I have the base pot set to 500 ohms.  As soon as I apply power to the little circuit, the driving coil goes on and stays on.  If I disconnect the trigger coil, the driving coil goes off. If I reverse the connection of the trigger coil, the driving coil stays off.  I would leave it this way, but I am under the impression that polarity of the trigger pulse is important in turning on the driving coil at the proper time.  If I disconnect the driving coil, current stops (obviously).  With the power on and the positive side of the trigger coil disconnected, the base voltage on the BD243C bjt is .35V.  when I connect the trigger coil back up, the current through the driving coil goes on, the bjt gets hot and the base voltage stays at 0.35V.  with the power on and the positive side of the trigger coil disconnected, the positive side of the trigger coil has 0.00 volts on it, which is to be expected.  Then I connect it up again and current flows through the drive coil, which I wouldn't have expected.  It is almost like the transistor is behaving like a PNP.  But then when I connect the normally grounded side of the trigger coil to +12V, the transistor goes on then too.  All of these conditions happen even when I put a new transistor in there so I don't think I am burning them up.  

I am out of ideas and any help I could get would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks.

[monte350c]

Don't forget this motor is not self starting - you have to give it a spin to get it going...

Other than that, there's all the info you will need at the links on the top of this page and also in Charged's other diaries.

I now have my motor and charging circuit working but am still optimizing things.

To Charged:

I noticed a kind of interesting phenomena, take a small neo magnet ( I used one about a half inch in diameter and one eighth thick) and hold it around the coil when the Bedini motor is running. It almost vibrates out of my hand... up to around 10" away. There's something interesting happening near this thing!

Ted.

[charged]

 When the motor is running at it's "tuned" position, the stator field is supposed to act like an absorber for ambient (zero-point??) energy.

 I get the impression that the field-effect MUST reach out to a much larger EM cross-section (in open space around the motor) than what the "normal" electrical cross-section would be for a standard steady DC circuit of the same voltage. This is how it becomes an electromagnetic "windmill".

 At least, that's how I'm currently understanding it. I might be wrong.

 I'd say that now you should take a good look at this article and it's associated diagrams, if you haven't seen it already.

http://www.explorepub.com/articles/beardon/overunity.html

It's all about regauging, or "teasing" forces that are normally considered to be "static" in nature, like gravity or magnetism. This is just like what happens at a bullfight when the matador waives his cape in front of the bull, coaxing him to run forward. Then he steps aside and repeats the process. Very little energy goes into waiving the cape to cause a pulsed release of the much larger "bull power".

[charged]

Your coil might be getting oscillations (feedback) and therefore it's getting the transistor hot. Turn on an AM radio and place it next to the motor. You might hear a nasty screetching tone. If so, you'll need to use less resistance on the base.

In any case, use this post as a guide for checking your coil connections.

First, make sure the output winding is connected to SOMETHING. Preferably, for the simple purposes of getting the motor up and running, just connect your secondary battery directly in parallel with the output capacitor. This way you won't have massive HV spikes hitting the transistor and getting it hot. You can worry about setting up the cap pulser later. Just get the motor running for now. You should be using a battery of the same (or higher) voltage than your source battery. This part is important.

Here's the simple way to keep all your coil winding polarities straight.

If you dutifully wound your coil with a trifilar winding, you'll have a cluster of three leads coming off of one end and another cluster of three leads coming off the other.

Now, using your ohm-meter, find and mark the matching ends for each winding.

Grab the leads for one of the windings and apply your battery to determine the coil polarity. You want the stator to repel the rotor magnets when power is applied. Once you find out which lead is supposed to get positive power, mark ALL THREE LEADS on that end with a piece of masking tape with a big "+" sign on it.

Wrap a piece of masking tape around the "top" (stator face) end leads and mark them with a big "+" sign. Do the same with the bottom leads and mark them "-".

So now you know which ends are all the same polarity and you also know which pos and neg leads are for each winding. Got it? Good.

One of those postive leads is wired to battery positive (according to the circuit as shown). Take another one of those positive leads and THAT is the lead that goes to your base resistor to power the transistor base. The third winding, of course, is your output winding. Just wire it up as shown.

Let me know if this solved any of your problems.

Once you get one of these working, you'll get better and better at wiring it without even thinking too much about it. Same deal with tuning. All you really need is an AM radio once you get the hang of it.

[mercurous]

Charged:

You were right, I was getting oscillations.  I was looking at it with the O-scope and during the time when I presume that the trigger pulse should just be turning the power coil on, it was turning off, causing huge (~100V) negative spikes on the top of the trigger coil and huge positive spikes on the bottom of the power coil.  It was oscillating in this manner perhaps 10-20 times per trigger pulse (depending on the configuration I had it in).  This, I suppose, was the cause of my motor not running.  I taped a third magnet on top of the other two 3/4" ceramic magnets I already had on each of the three poles on my rotor.  I also decreased the base resistance until I just connected the top of the trigger coil to the base of the bd243c bjt.  Now the motor runs.  Small success but significant.  I am still getting two oscillations per trigger pulse and I have NO base resistance.  I'm thinking that these two things probably aren't good but this was the only way I could get the thing to run.  I can post more details about it if you want me to.  Have any more glorious suggestions?

[mercurous]

I was fiddling with it some more tonight and I replaced the ceramic magnets that I added with neodymium magnets.  It ran faster but I still wasn't able to get rid of what I believe is one extra oscillation on the trigger and power coils.  It happens about 2/3 of the way through the trigger "on time".  Then there is another spike that happens when the bjt finally turns off for good, but I presumed that one was supposed to be there.  The trigger "on time" was also longer with the NIB magnets.  No surprise there.  I don't plan on leaving the NIB magnets there, just playing around.  All in all, I think I have stayed pretty close to the design.  But I think my rotor might be too big?   Everyone else is building motors with 6" diameter rotors.  Mine is 12".  I dunno.  I'll keep reading, fiddling until I stumble across the answer or somone tells me.

Peace

[charged]

It's possibly a "gain" (hfe) issue with your transistor. Check and make sure that it's up around 80 or higher.

Normally, there is a "zone" of spacing between the stator and the rotor magnet faces where the motor will run.

If the spacing is too tight, the battery won't break the magnet loose from the pole in a static test. Too wide a spacing and the magnet won't produce enough of a voltage pulse to turn the transistor on.

When it's "in the zone" the closest spacing will draw the maximum primary driving current, while the widest spacing draws the minimum input current.

This means it's wise to have an adjustable gap spacing so that you can find the widest spacing possible that still keeps it running.

Keep the bridge output loaded with a capacitor and your secondary battery while you're getting it running. Then switch over and get the cap-pulse output working.

 

[JW]

This is ineresting Charged,

 I am intrigued by the possibility of this energy gate, do you think the inerta of the rotor, the capacitors, or the back emf, are some how focusing this? Im sure to a certian degree synergy must be involved. Hey if it wasnt for the desire know things we would have nothing in this world. Even thou the second law of thermodynamics is worshiped by most, I often find it getting in my way. I would be very worthwhile to know how it applies to bendini motor process. There is another recent post of mine in "so it begins".

[mercurous]

Charged,

I hope you still frequent this diary.  I am still having trouble getting my bedini motor running properly.  I redid my rotor, using an old hard drive similar to what monte350 did.  I can get the motor to run but only at my closest spacing (about 3/16") and at zero base resistance on the driving bjt.  It draws about .8 amps and runs at about 900 rpm.  Any time I try to move the coil away or increase the resistance, I get oscillations and my motor stops running.  Got any great pearls of wisdom for me?