Dec 24, 2006

[Spdlmt150]

I now have a pair of lakewood fans donated, as well as an edison fan with a similar motor. All 3 have been stripped down. 1-2 amps each, for two of them beats what my solar is doing on these dismal winter days. I'm seeing the first charging amps in 3 days this morning.

I think I will take a break from the axial to try tinkering with these. My thought is that the worst part of them is the bushings. I will either turn the ends to fit sealed bearings, or make new end caps entirely.

It looks to me like the 4 mag arrangement seems to be the best setup due to the width of the stator segments. Would this benefit from a large number of smaller mags? My thought is the 1/8 disc X 1/16 thick 13,700 gauss neos could pack a lot of magnetic field on this motor, as well as maintain a small air gap. Is this flawed thinking? Should I shoot for larger mags on this? I will probably rewind, as they have the 3 different wire sizes in them. I would think that would be far from optimal for generating power.

I'll be cutting down the sheet metal from the "box" part of the fans to fabricate the other parts. I'm thinking 1X3 for blades, 3.5-4' high tsr rotor.

As soon as time permits, I'll draw up what I'm thinking. Merry x-mas to all.

[AbyssUnderground]

I could do with a small gen like those motors are doing. My solar has put out under 5Ah of power in the last 2 days. Thats 60w worth of solar as well, under 5Ah. Probably not even half that. I havent seen over 50mA today from the array.

Good luck with them.

[Spdlmt150]

I saw 12 Amps from the solar this morning.... briefly. Now they're down around 4 amps. That's four 75W panels. Never have seen better than 12.8 amps from them. Makes me ill to think of the $$$ sitting there, and what I actually get out of them.

Over the past 3 days, 6ah total from a 4 figure investment. If I can get .5amp from a lakewood with bearings and a 4 ft rotor in a 10 mph wind, X 2 - one at each end of the house, I could turn in around 16ah a day easily. More often up around 30ah with the wind I usually have.

I am curious to see what kind of amperage these little motors can actually turn out.

[AbyssUnderground]

Yeah, its amazing how little power solar panels put out in crap lighting conditions. Its the only downside with them and its the worst downside ever, especially when you really need the power. Thankfully with me only running LED lights I havent drawn much more than a few Ah daily so my battery is fine.

I was doing a few calculations a while back and if you can average 10w for a period of 24 hours, you'll be getting at least 15Ah. That would be more than ideal for me at the moment. Its just finding a decent motor/gen thats the difficult part. Even more difficult is getting my dad to let me put it up. Its a hard life :-)

[Spdlmt150]

I'll be posting pics of the lakewood project as it goes. One little advantage that I have is access to a cnc machine shop, as well as several manual machines. My only major gripe with the lakewood motors is that they have bushings instead of bearings. That limits the durability of them considerably. I will definitely be looking for a reasonable way to put some sealed bearings in them.

The first thing will be to draw things up for a variety of magnet arrangements & see what the pros on here have to say about each. I'd much rather ask those who know than try to reinvent the wheel.

As today is crunch time for present wrapping, I doubt I'll have a chance to do any cad work. Hopefully tomorrow night everybody will be busy with their new toys, and I'll be able to work on mine.

I finally got some sun today. 40ah. Far from a full charge, but certainly in a better state than yesterday. I am running a full house of lights, a laptop, as well as some misc. small equipment from my system. Definitely doesn't have the reserve to go more than about 36 hours without charging.

[AbyssUnderground]

I don't even have 40Ah of battery yet. I can generate about 20Ah on a good day. If I had tracking I could probably push another 5-10Ah. My battery is only 17.2Ah. Ill be getting 80-110Ah after Christmas. That will give me a nice boost.

[Spdlmt150]

Here's the motor as it comes apart.

Here's the multi-sized winding.

Here is what I was originally thinking of to use the quarter inch by quarter inch mags in one of these motors.

After drawing it & having it on screen to play with, I am thinking that the 1.25 X .562 X .125 mags might give a better field. They would cover the stator segments quite well. If those who know could give any pointers on this...

This looks to me to be about the best setup to be had with this motor short of using curved mags.

[hiker]

looks like a fun little motor..

 had one like that a while back--i hacksawed the rotor down--6 flats--

 with  hd mags i could lite up a couple of 12v taillights..

 never did make a blade for it because it was such a cogger...

 good luck on yours......

 

[Spdlmt150]

I forget which of the 20 thousand pages I've read had this on it.... I think it was Zubbly who had the info. Post said that the motor with 4 mags pretty much eliminated cogging. I'm hoping that the 4 mag, and a full rewind will make it worth the time.

If not, I'm not out much of anything but some time.

[Jerry]

This is a true 6 pole motor. I suspect the multipol windings may be useable. I would think its a 3 speed. This means it was wound posable with 3 wires in hand. Low speed uses coil #1 med speed uses coil #1 plus coil #2 high speed uses coil #1 + coil #2 plus coil #3. High speed would have all 3 coils in perelell.

I use the slightly larger version of this motor and just seperated it into 6 indevidual coils, then you could wire it star. Use 4 magnets and its a 3 phase pma.

It was originaly made to operate from 120 volts or 20 volts per coil. In the star configuaration 2 coils in sires would be 40 volts then acount for the losses in star the voltage would be 68 volts. As a pma operating a low rpm and with 4 magnets the voltage will be much less but quite usable maybe on a small scale?

                                  JK TAS Jerry

[Spdlmt150]

As small as it is, I would think efficiency would be boosted by having better windings. The three in hand is fine for a three speed motor, but I would think rewinding with a single line would probably give a little more output.

I am hoping the 1.25 X .562 mags will have enough field to work as drawn. If I can get an amp or two from one of these I will be happy. On a good day I get 25-35ah from the panels. I would think that on a windy day I should be able to top that with a pair of these spinning.

I have 36 of the 1/4 X 1/4 round and 12 of the 1.25 X .562 X .125

My other thought was to just leave it round, turn it down about .38, and use 3/16 X 1/16 discs... lots of them. Not sure which way would be the best to go - larger airgap with a solid mag, or minimal airgap with a bunch of mags.

[Spdlmt150]

Here's the thought I had for the 3/16 X 1/16 magnets. I noticed the gauss rating on them to be a bit higher than what I see for the larger magnets. With a bunch of them (15 per pole) and a small gap, would these be better than using larger magnets?

[dinges]

If it is a 6 pole motor (easy to determine for yourself: divide 7200 by the RPMs; result is the number of poles) he will need 6 poles on the rotor as well, NOT the 4 poles he is using now.

Also, he would need to take anti-cogging measures. The most suitable one, to me, seems to use the JacquesM-method in this case. For a project of mine that used that method, have a look at this story:

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/8/12/213549/997

However, since his motor has only 6 stator slots, only 5/6*360 = 300 deg of the rotor would be filled with magnets. I.e. it would introduce a large imbalance in the rotor. Normally, the more slots the stator has (16, 24 or even 36), the less the imbalance in the rotor becomes).

No doubt this motor can be made to generate, but take into account the correct number of poles and the de-cogging measures. Without de-cogging, you may find that it won't start up easily (enough).

Succes,

[ghurd]

Looking for this?

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/7/4/34446/17324

Big rush right now. More later.

G-

[Spdlmt150]

Yep... That was it.... Too much reading lately. Can't remember what came from where, and my 4 page list of bookmarks is getting too unorganized. Thanks.

[willib]

spdlmt and all , sorry for your lack of usable sunshine

in a month or so the sun will be in the sky for a longer period of time , it just gets better from here on out

i know you are tring to use available parts/motors to generate power

i dont know enough about motor conversions to tell whether your newest drawing will cogg or not , but using lots of little mags will work better at decogging than larger ones

nice drawings , really

the only way i have seen a motor compleatly decogged is to angle the mags or the stator and being that your stator is flat like a pancake , it makes it harder in my opinion to decogg, but like i said earlier i'm not an expert at motor conversions

[RP]

In the close up image of one coil you can see the "shaded pole" on the right side of the pole shoe.  This little extra pole hanging off the side has a single shorted turn of thick copper or aluminum wrapped around it hence the lump seen in the blue paint.  The shorted turn on the shaded pole is there to create a slightly out of phase magnetic field which causes the motor to rotate in one direction when under power.

You want to cut that loop of wire since it causes a loss in a generator.  You don't have to remove it completely, just "open the loop" but cutting the copper wire with a Dremel or even a chisel (carefully) on all of the pole shoes.

[Jerry]

I've been converting AC induction motors going on 5 years now. With the 36 slot the cogging is not bad with 6 magnet poles. But the 6 slot motor with 6 magnet poles allmost requiers a pipe wrench to turn the cogging is so sevier.

I use 4 magnet poles in the 6 slot 6 pole motor. This makes for a true 3 phase pma.

The coils may then be configured in a # of diferant ways. Star, delta, sires, perelell, sires/perelell and Jerry rigged.

With 4 magnetic poles the armature may be spun with ease with thum and forfinger.

Heres a couple pics of a 2 in hand stator during coil rewinding.

                        JK TAS Jerry

[coldspot]

If I was to be doing this,

(Finishing the simular one I started last winter)

I'd also replace the bushings with bearings, I got some for this that fit pretty nice for $0.99 each!

Local place for me, "www.armysurpluswarehouse.com".

For a look, "http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/3/31/15739/6290"

I never finished this yet, lack of wire to use. And so many other projects that have come and got started and are just waiting for the tower and blades.

Soon, very soon!

[Spdlmt150]

Jerry.... have you tried anything with multiple smaller magnets? From playing with different layouts on screen, it looks to me like the 3/16 X 1/16 mags set up as drawn with 15 per pole would give a better field. Considering the mags would cost next to nothing, I would be willing to try it. They are also a higher gauss rating than any other mags I have seen on the site. I would love to hear from someone who has done it that it would actually work. If nobody has, I guess I'll be the guinea pig.

As for cogging.. The 4 pole 6 slot configuration places 2 poles dead center of the cog, and 2 poles exactly opposite. Providing that spacing is accurate (this will be milled out on a cnc to position the magnets) the cogging should be all but eliminated. There will still be some amount of drag, although actual cogging should not be a problem. The spacing will allow for a 3 phase setup (2 coils + 2 coils + 2 coils)

Also, this is not an attempt at a 50 amp machine. This is a thought of "Hey... it's free, lightweight, and between the motor & the sheet metal I could make it for little more than a couple bucks of magnets & some time. If it can bring in a couple amps while I'm building a good axial I'll try it."

Of course, I am now looking into making bearing caps for it just to avoid the bushings failing after the work goes into it, as well as considering a complete rewind which I feel would increase the output a bit. I always have to complicate things. It sucks being a perfectionist.

Sorry to add on a bunch of responses to my question for you Jerry, I just start typing & don't seem to stop.

[ghurd]

Not quite as rushed now. All this is for 4 magnet poles.

I don't believe the 1/8 x 1/16" will do much at all. The 1/16" is too thin. The 1/8" will have a lot of losses and are hard to get together to amount to much surface area. If you decide to go with the tiny magnets, leave the factory wires and reconnect them as in my diagram in the link I posted above. I have a feeling you will need all the turns you can get. They can be changed later if need be.

The 1.25 X .562 X .125 will have a very large effective airgap. It may help with the cogging, but the output will suffer. And the magnets are SO wide it may cause cogging... I'm not sure about that one.

The 1/4 x 1/4 should be OK if all 9 are used.

I don't think there is a common flat magnet much better suited to this than a 3/4 x 3/4" and 5/16 or 3/8" thick.

I only have a few in various stages of completion, or lack there of. Pure 'Jerry Rig' works best on most with factory wiring. Delta output is less. Star output is lowest for 12V because of the resistance (do not be fooled by the high open voltages).

An amp at 12V is easy with the factory wire and fan blade, given some Good Wind.

If I ever get around to rewinding one, I'm going to try 130 turns per coil (tooth), test it, and connect it Jerry Rig or Star to suit my needs.  A single degaussing coil from a TV or 15" monitor would be plenty of #20 or #21 wire.

Do not get too carried away with 'better neos'.  It can cause cogging in these.  My best guess is the flux leaks to the other coil laminations after the intended lamination is past saturation.

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/8/23/144336/344

Having access to good machines, it could be worth looking for a motor like this...

It is almost the same size, but far thicker, and with much heavier wire (2.5 ohms per coil by the meter).  1/6 HP 115VAC 6.2A.

It may be a decent cantidate for the 1.25 X .562 X .125 magnets, standing up and stacked a few deep. It is from a vent fan of some kind. Semi common.

Stuck rotor with 4 curved magnets, but it shows some of the good stuff.

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/2050/Stuck.jpg

Show me some progress and I'll send you some great magnets for one.

G-

[coldspot]

"making bearing caps"





was pretty easy using hand tools only.

[Spdlmt150]

Now that the x-mas chaos is coming to an end, I am going to be doing some digging to see if I can come up with any better motors. I know as flat as these are, it is a challenge to be useful for much of anything. With a longer armature & skewed mags I would think everything would come out a lot more efficient.

A little digging should come up with a few more motors. I keep waiting to see a servo motor from one of the machines at work get junked. Couple years ago they dumped 5 of them... Wish I would have grabbed those.

I'm still going to finish off the lakewood motor just because I'm stubborn like that. We'll see how it does. Many smaller mags is out, as well as overkill on big mags. I think I have some 1/2 round neos somewhere. Too much junk piled up to keep it organized. I'll keep info coming as it develops.

[Jerry]

Hi Spdlmt150

I've not tryed the use of many small magnets in any conversion. I think Zubbly is your man for that plus a few others.

I've used curved and bar magnets both in NEO and ceramic.

                     JK TAS Jerry

[Jerry]

Here a couple pictures. This first will be an 8 pole motor. I built the armature totaly from parts found at Lowes. I just wanted to see if it could be done.

The shaft, the bearings, large metal washers cut to octigon, 8 of the $1 ceramic magnets, glue and some gray paint.

Here is a simular 4 pole armature using the 1"X2"X1/2". Notice the scewing. This could be done with the ceramics also but very littel output. First pic is armature in motor stator.



Now the armatur.

                       JK TAS Jerry

[Spdlmt150]

Now that things are slowing down a bit....

Since I didn't see any simple way of removing the shunt without damaging the windings, the wire is now removed & the stator will be rewound. I expect that rewinding will provide higher output than the original windings in the motor.

[RP]

Is this the Lakewood that you said you have two of?  

If so you might consider stacking the laminate stators and wind them as a single (longer) stator.  This assumes that you can cobble it all back together into a single frame.

[Spdlmt150]

I have two in hand, and I think possibly another 5 coming. I had thought about that. The way the motor is assembled, both end caps sandwich the stator. Doubling the stators could be done, but the shaft isn't long enough to make it.

I am thinking the 1st one I am going to shoot for keeping it close to original.

After that, I think 3 of these stators stacked & rewound, with a from scratch armature with some longer magnets could have quite a bit of potential.

[ghurd]

Thats why I like the one with the stuck rotor. The stator is ~1.85" thick (my Lakewood stators are 0.5"). And comes with heavier coils.

The diameters are all about the same, but the ends are much heavier.

G-

[Spdlmt150]

As I am back to work now, I also have time to tinker. One of the lakewood fan motors went to work with me today. First the armature was turned down to fit 4 neos with a .015" airgap. The mags are now glued to the armature, and will be poured in fiberglass resin.

The shunts were completely removed from the stator. I used a grinder with a scotch brite disc to skim them down, and then a small punch to knock the remaining copper piece out of the slot.

There is a bit of cogging with the 4 magnets, although I wouldn't expect any output in low windspeeds and the cogging isn't severe enough to keep things from breaking loose at a moderate windspeed where this small gen could actually create power. It can be turned by hand, although it certainly doesn't free-spin. The image below is a video clip 263kb of the motor being spun with the armature in place. It is still on the original bushings.

The next thing happening is plasti-dip to recoat the stator. The rotor will be poured in fiberglass resin. Providing the resin sets overnight, it will go to work tomorrow to be turned down. Bearings will be coming soon.

Progress is a wonderful thing to see.

[ghurd]

Looks Great!

G-

[Spdlmt150]

The armature of the lakewood is now poured. I had an idea which I wasn't too sure of, so I didn't post until it proved out. Here's how it goes... First, the magnets were superglued in place. A cheap plastic food container ($2 at Kroger) was drilled to allow the shaft to go through. I hot glued the face of the armature to the bottom of the container to keep the fiberglass from getting on the shaft.

I was primarily concerned about the hot glue giving loose & letting fiberglass pour down the shaft. It leaked very slightly, but not enough to make it to the shaft.

Aside from wasting a little fiberglass due to the large diameter, it worked flawlessly.

The cured shaft went in to work this morning, and got turned down. The gap from magnet face to stator tooth is .02" There is .01" fiberglass over the top of the magnets. It looks kinda like a new age roller skate wheel.

I am now coating the stator with plasti-dip. It is a little thinner than I expected, so I am spending a lot more time than planned putting multiple coats on. Pics will come soon.

[Spdlmt150]

So much for the plasti-dip. It seems to peel & split too easily. My first wire wrap shorted to the stator, so strips of good old electrical tape are now working well. The first test coil on the lakewood is 225 wraps of 25 gauge. 2.5 ohm resistance. Using a craftsman drill to drive it (rated at 1200 rpm) it is showing 7 volts. There's enough current to throw a spark when shorted. Am I thinking right that with 4 mags, 2 poles in series producing current, I would have to run 550 wraps per pole to get the 12v cutin below 600 rpm?

It is starting to look like all six poles would be required to produce any amperage, and with a .5 inch thick armature & stator and the wide stator segments this isn't going to produce much of anything.

Any ideas?