Author Topic: My first install ! (Read 4930 times)

DigitalMind · « **on:** January 11, 2008, 03:53:11 AM »

I've been reading for months and months about alternative energy. Starting with ZERO knowledge except REALLY basic electronics and cable installation.

I've posted a thousand questions on this board and you've all been great.

Tomorrow i'm hopping onto a bus to my sisters off-grid house in Kingston to hopefully power-it up somewhat ! (I just want her to have lights, she's been there for a year living by candlelight!)

This is a small set-up that my mother and I put together for her for xmas. (Well I ordered all the parts, and she paid for alot of it and picked alot of the stuff up herself)

Watt Solar Panel - $160
X 225ah 6volt Deep Cycle Batteries - Total $200
Watt Xantrex Inverter (Mod sine wave) - $50
amp Charge Controller - $40

I realize this isn't much, but it's just for her to have lights really.

Her xmas stocking was filled with CFL bulbs and 12 volt items.

I'll be pole mounting the panel in the backyard where there's the most light. A little worried about connecting it all to the existing fuse panel. (Although there's no power in it now, so i'm less worried) I'm bringing a back-up inverter just in case something goes wrong here.

Tomorrow I will be off and have no access to internet and all of you to help, and I will be back sunday night. Wish me luck !

Volvo farmer · « **Reply #1 on:** January 10, 2008, 09:25:43 PM »

Nice!

I built a similar mini-system for my garage.

Here's my opinion, and you know what opinions are like :-)

You have too much battery for your charging source. I'd put at least 150W of panels on those batteries, even if I was running minimal loads and had good sun almost every day. Those batteries will self-discharge on the amount of what one 30W panel can supply with good sun. Add lighting load, etc. and you're in deficit even on a good day with only 30W charging.

I realize you are trying to save money and solar panels cost a fortune, but you are also on track to ruin those batteries in short order if you don't get them charged up fully every few days.

richhagen · « **Reply #2 on:** January 10, 2008, 10:20:53 PM »

I would tend to agree with Volvo. Your charging rate in amps is less than 1% of the numerical value of the battery bank capacity in amp hours. I would have likely skipped the charge control as unnecessary yet since you won't really be able to over charge a couple of flooded batteries of your capacity with that, and added any additional charging capacity I could get with the extra money. You can probably get by without a charge controller up to about double what you have in capacity for good flooded batteries my rule of thumb would be to add a charge controller at about 1.5% for flooded batteries, and with any charging amount for most other types. It is a start, but I would plan on finding another way to supplement the charge to those batteries. The deeper you allow them the discharge, the fewer cycles you will get out of them. Rich

tecker · « **Reply #3 on:** January 11, 2008, 04:47:26 AM »

Use a car battery for the time being And maintain the 6 volts until you can upgrade . Or if she travels to work install them in the car she drives and provide a plugin for the home circuit .I've had three marine batts in my truck for some time now and this works well.

DigitalMind · « **Reply #4 on:** January 11, 2008, 07:12:32 AM »

Yeah I know what you guys are saying. Not much charging power in this. This whole set-up is a temporary thing until they decide (in the spring) if they invest big bucks on a solar setup or big bucks on connecting to the grid.

This whole thing, is just for them to have 1 or 2 lightbulbs on for a couple of hours per day.

I will see how long it takes them to discharge the battery to 60% full. If it happens too quickly, i'll get them a generator or something to recharge the batteries. Also, I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to go out and buy a 150 Watt panel not long after I install this. (Once they get a taste of electricity, they'll want more!)

Bruce S · « **Reply #5 on:** January 11, 2008, 07:26:21 AM »

DM;

I'm with everyone else on this. That is way too much battery for the 30watt panel.

Any way you could pick up a couple small SLAs? and attach them.

The battery usage is going to way out do the panels ability to bring them up to full charge. By spring these batts could very well be toast:-( and at $200, I hate to see them go that route.

Other than that have a safe trip and greatest of luck:-)!!

May the sun shine on and on and on !!

Bruce S

DigitalMind · « **Reply #6 on:** January 11, 2008, 08:38:23 AM »

first of all : I realize you're all right about there not being enough panels, but they're OK with only having power here and there. (They kind of prefer it actually) I will try see if they can afford a panel or 2 for the moment.

The way I see it though : 30 Watts of panels X 4 hrs light per day - 120 Watts pey day

Using 10 Watt CFL's + inverter loss I'm guessing she should be able to turn on 1 light for atleast 6 hours a day (or 2 lights for 3 hours) and technically never really drain the battery too much. Am I wrong

I'm very curious about the answer to this particular question above, but i'm leaving in about 1 hour, so I may only see the answers when I get back !

Thanks guys for the input and encouragement!

DigitalMind · « **Reply #7 on:** January 11, 2008, 08:40:56 AM »

That's a great Idea tecker, the problem is there house is on top of a little hill that they cannot drive up in the winter. (They park at the bottom and walk up)

.... even their well is at the bottom of the hill ...

DigitalMind · « **Reply #8 on:** January 11, 2008, 08:50:27 AM »

I forgot the mention, the whole "house" is just 500sq ft. One room. So just 1 light bulb will actually light up the whole place and makes a big difference.

Bruce S · « **Reply #9 on:** January 11, 2008, 08:55:43 AM »

DM;

Might be okay. You have done a great job of thinking everything through.

One of the things>> take a cheapo digital meter and leave it there. it'll help of they have any problems.

The thing about the 30watts is this may be the max, and possibly not be the case in real life.

Show her how to monitor the voltage of the batteries and what level is good and what level is leave it off:-)

Possibly if you can afford it, grab a small gas powered gen as a just in case of no sun light for long periods and explain about what volatge level would be good to give the batts a good deep charge.

My Hats off to you sir!!

Have a safe and Enjoyable trip

Bruce S

DigitalMind · « **Reply #10 on:** January 11, 2008, 09:13:00 AM »

Thanks Bruce... I do in fact have a 10$ digital meter that I am bringing and leaving there. I have spent the last couple months (while I'm also learning) talking to them about what's involved in maintaining batteries and keeping them alive for the longest time possible.

I'm so anxious to get this done. I've been living and breathing alt. energy setups for the last couple of months to the point that I can't fall asleep cause my mind is busy calculating power consumption or thinking about what i've learned that day, and then I do fall asleep and i'm dreaming about this stuff ...

Once it's all over with, maybe i'll be able to sleep normally again.

CmeBREW · « **Reply #11 on:** January 11, 2008, 09:16:56 AM »

Congrats on your small system installment. It is a great gift for your sister.

I have a small beginner system myself -- 2 marine batts and the HF 45W solar panel and a small mill.

So far I have seen NO self-discharge with these thin plate marine batts. I can leave for 3 weeks leaving them sit there unhooked and when I get back I see they are still FULLY charged. Those are all smart guys talking about self-discharge-- and I'm sure there correct, but I just do not see it. It confused me. In the summer months I can run the 10 watt light for as many hours as I want (usually 3) and I watch one hour of 140 watt TV. (about 170 watthours a day)

I've been doing this since with the solar panel since the summer. Of course now theres no sun--but the mills are taking up the slack.

Is self-discharge mainly with the Thick plated deep-cycle batts? It confuses me.

You must have golf cart batterys which have the thicker plates and will self-discharge like the others saY?

If golf cart batts self-discharge like they suggest- I think I'm staying with the thin plated marine batts for a small system.

Bruce S · « **Reply #12 on:** January 11, 2008, 10:54:34 AM »

CmeBrew;

What you're seeing is pretty much true. Most of the batteries that are Lead Acid based have one of the lower self-discharged rates.

The ones to worry most about would be the NiCd, NiMh and so forth.

A NiCd battery even though they love to be used deeply and are really good for this, tend to loose their charge if not used about 20% in a month's time. then 20% of what's left and so forth.

LA batts can sit for a month or two , in a non-freezing room , and stay fairly well charged just sitting there.

SLAs are pretty much the same.

Hows those HF Panels doing?

Cheers

Bruce S

CmeBREW · « **Reply #13 on:** January 11, 2008, 11:55:33 AM »

I must say I like the HF 45Watt panels. (and those 2 / 5w light bulbs) Of course the as said here all the time, the controller is about worthless. I almost always get 8-10 hours of sunshine in the summertime (But NO wind for small mill) and they are putting out about a constant average of 20watts total. Probably about 18watts in the morning and evening , and about 24watts straight up.

When I got it I could see the aluminum frame is not good enough to stand up to severe winds, so I welded up my own frame out of that angle steel for beds i had laying around. I suggest everyone make a sturdy frame for these to presurve your investment. The cool thing is I can turn the axis to get sun in the morning and the evening in case of a rare over-cast period in the morning or whenever. If I want, I can 'milk the system' and turn it 3 times a day and get about 30 percent more watthours.

It has proven itself for sure. Two nights ago there was over 80mph winds from the horrible warm front that caused 30 freak tornadoes in the East coast. Sounded like a hurricane all night long. I live on a slab, so I almost had to change my pants a few times that night! I almost jammed my whole arm down my toilet since its the only thing attached to the slab.

Anyway, Batteries sure are complex. He would probably be getting about 15 watts average (sunnyday) from that small solar panel (after it wears in for a few days) and so the experienced guys are right, he should get another panel to be safe.

I didn't mean to sound contradictory -- I'm just trying to learn about this self-discharge thing. Does anyone know where to see a chart concerning this self-discharge with TRUE deep cycle batts? (NOT thin plate marine batts)

What Digitalmind is doing has to be the best way to go, since those batteries should last longer as long as they are kept full charged often.

Keep up the good work Digitalmind.

Bruce S · « **Reply #14 on:** January 11, 2008, 12:47:17 PM »

VERY nice!!

I know what you mean about the lite-beer metal they include :-)

I did much the same of taking a hack-saw to some old bed rails. A friend /neighbor is a metal fabricator, so I bribed him to weld them up for me. No stand as of yet. Have to get clearance from city to put them up on the house.

I haven't dumped the older style controller, I relugated it to charging cell phones, small portable drills and the like. I got smart early and got one of Ghurd's smaller solar controllers and then grabbed a few of his dump controllers early on. Once the batts are charged, I use them to direct the incoming to other batt banks ( i.e. NiCds)

and batteries can be a head ache:-)

and I secind the nod to Digitalmind:-)

Cheers

Have a great Weekend!!

Bruce S

ghurd · « **Reply #15 on:** January 11, 2008, 01:14:23 PM »

I use 1% per day for the math. 200AH battery = 2AH per day.

I think it is quite a bit less.

The good things...

The days are getting longer. The battery will charge more, and they'll have the lights on less.

The battery, if used much, is certainly large enough to store all the solar power they will make.

The battery is large enough to run the 1 light 6 hours a day for a long time, even without the solar.

I have more serious concern about the charging system.

The long run of fairly undersided wire is going to have survivable losses.

But I'm not so sure about that controller. More so with the wire losses.

I was testing something a couple weeks ago that 100% reminded me of the Canadian Tire controller (I'm not going through the effort to trick them into thinking I live next door to one again). The forward voltage drop was over 1.1V (IIRC) with a 32W PV sending in a half amp into a low battery. Guessing it is more with increased amps.

I figure those are 1A at 15V PVs. Take out the wire voltage drop, and an extra 1.15V or more drop in the controller, and there is not a lot left to get the battery to charge much even with good sun.

I would seriously consider not using that controller at this time. And not a regular diode to replace it, but a high current (5A+) Schottky.

G-

richhagen · « **Reply #16 on:** January 11, 2008, 11:57:03 PM »

I am not trying to rain on your parade. I think installing the system is great. It can be a good starting point. But, you are not counting the fact that your batteries will consume power. They will discharge at a certain rate which will vary by battery type and size. This energy is gone, consumed, and you will have to replace it to maintain your batteries charge. The larger the bank, the more power is consumed. I am not sure exactly how your batteries will perform, but I suspect with the low rate of charge, most of your generated power will go into maintaining the batteries charge. This should be considered along with the fact that, you may go several days with no or little sun in most locations, and some days you will get great sun for much more than 4 hours. The average sun hours are just that, the average. By comparison, I have 130 Watts of solar into a 225 Amp hour bank at one location, with only moderate lighting averaging 9 Watts use. I have a conservative low voltage cutoff, and this winter, the lights have still gone out a few times because the battery voltage has reached the low voltage disconnect voltage. I let the lights which are not critical go off rather than shorten the life of the battery by allowing it to discharge too deeply. Rich

richhagen · « **Reply #17 on:** January 11, 2008, 11:59:01 PM »

Older batteries also self discharge much more than new batteries from my observations. Rich

commanda · « **Reply #18 on:** January 12, 2008, 12:36:11 AM »

I was just about to say that!

And if you constantly undercharge them because your solar panel is not big enuff, they will age prematurely.

Amanda

Volvo farmer · « **Reply #19 on:** January 12, 2008, 02:23:10 AM »

Your math and reasoning are mostly correct. Here's where I see a potential problem: It is generally accepted that for maximum battery life, a 1-2 hour absorption stage is recommended daily. Absorption for 12V batteries is in the 14.4V range. I have my doubts whether a 30W panel could push a couple T105s to 14.4V, even fully charged and with no loads. So you can possibly get to float voltage (13.6V) every day, but I think not to absorption voltage, just not enough amps there.

This may actually be OK for the light loads you are planning and for a short period of time. If a time comes when you plan on discharging the batteries more than 25%, you will want to get that absorption charge in there on a regular basis. Also it is recommended to equalize batteries at over 15V once every 30 or 60 days. Eventually you should figure out a way to do this, even if it means burning fossil fuels, because it can really help batteries live longer.

Lastly, your calculations might be off somewhat because inverters are horribly inefficient at the lowest power levels. A 1500W inverter can be 90% efficient at 1400W but maybe only 50% efficient at 50W.

Anyway, nice to see you jump into the fire. Let us know how the install went!

thirteen · « **Reply #20 on:** January 12, 2008, 09:41:52 AM »

I may have missed this in the comments but some inverters use power just sitting there, maybe put a diconnect ahead of the inverter will help them conserve some battery power

DigitalMind · « **Reply #21 on:** January 15, 2008, 07:27:35 AM »

Hi Guys !! I'm BACK !!!

Everything went well. The stuff I thought I would have a hard time with (connecting the inverter to the fuse panel and removing the neutral to ground link) was really easy, and the stuff I though would be a piece of cake, (Pole Mounting the panels) I actually had a hard time with. I stayed an extra day because of that.

I will soon get the pictures from my camera and will write a blog about it on my site at techienation.com , I will copy and paste my blog entry here once done.

Thanks SOOO much for the help guys.

Now that they were able to use their lights and switches and electrical outlets for the first time, they seem more motivated to spend some money to get panels.

My sisters husbands father came over for dinner and was really happy that they finally have power and light other than candles. When we were alone he asked me "if they needed one more thing for this setup, what would it be?" so I quickly answered that they desperately need more panels. So, maybe the other side of the family is now going to start helping with this !

I'll post more soon ..

DigitalMind · « **Reply #22 on:** January 15, 2008, 08:40:02 AM »

The Blog isn't written .. but here are the pictures I took during installation ..

I'm not really happy with my pole mount, but it's good enough until summer when I can work outside without freezing. I also can turn the panels to face the sun which was the important part for me.

http://www.telinpho.com/pictures/Kingston%20Solar%20Installation/index.html

CmeBREW · « **Reply #23 on:** January 15, 2008, 05:43:35 PM »

Wow, what a nice photo display. You did a very good job there. Thanks for sharing those pictures. That is like my dream situation there. Did you say your sister is married?

Nice cozy house. All she needs now is an indoor bathroom and shes all set. Sounds like you have no codes there. With those 1.5gal toilets they got now, you could simply catch more rain water from the downspouting and have the barrels a few feet in the air and gravity feed it to the toilet tank inside.

I think I'm going to do this myself this summer simply because I'm interested in doing it-- and to save water. I suppose Filtering the dirt out is the main challenge.

If there is any kind of a small clearing there near her house, you might also think about putting up a quick and easy windmill. (DC motor/ pvc blades)

I just put one up and it is doing great even at ground level. (approximated 1200 watthours each day average so far)

The winds are sure good in the wintertime. The sun only shines about one day a week around my location. But in the summer everything transverses.

-Glad your installation and gift was greatly appreciated!

elvin1949 · « **Reply #24 on:** January 16, 2008, 12:58:50 AM »

DigitalMind

Nice photo spread.

I need a small place like that,Just me don't need much room.

You should be proud of yourself [don't break your arm patting yourself on back].

The smile on your sister's face was well worth all your labor.[been there,know how good it feels]

Remember you saying her father-in-law asking if more panel's would help.Get him to spring for all you can.HF is cheap and so far ok for me.Cost me 187.00 dollars for 1 45 watt set[with a 15%discount]

so i got 2 set's.I don't know where my brother found them but he gave me 2 15 watt HF panel's.

So i ended up with 120 watt's[It's a start]

HAVE FUN

later

Elvin

DigitalMind · « **Reply #25 on:** January 16, 2008, 07:46:10 AM »

Hi CmeBrew,

yeah my next project is figuring out the water situation for her. She has a well about 100 feet away from the house, down a small hill that probably drops about 20-30ft in elevation... The toilet idea is a good one, the problem is there house is about 500sq ft and by city code, the toilet needs to be in it's own room, and they don't have much room even for that !!! (Although i'm still thinking about it)

I would love to setup a small windmill there to help out their batteries. I actually need to do something about that fast cause for the moment, they only have 30 watts of panels !! Although now i'm REALLY hoping the inlaws will surprise them with an extra panel or 2.

I'm having a really hard time learning how to build my own windmill. (And trust me i've been trying... taken apart all my old disk drives trying to just make a mini one to understand the concepts) I wish there was one I could buy that's cheap, and that the people here still approve of. Anyone i should probably ask that in another post ...

... and yes, she's married ..

ghurd · « **Reply #26 on:** January 16, 2008, 08:39:44 AM »

My opinion is even a couple 100ma is better than nothing, approved or not.

Did you see my box fan conversion? Certainly is cheap. No fancy tools. No re-winding required, though it would help.

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/7/4/34446/17324

G-

DigitalMind · « **Reply #27 on:** January 16, 2008, 12:58:25 PM »

Thanks Ghurd .. seems like something i might be able to attempt .....

DigitalMind · « **Reply #28 on:** January 17, 2008, 09:15:20 AM »

Ok well I was going to copy and past my blog here, but it was really long, plus I don't think anyone is reading this thread anymore anyways...

All in all it went well... Thanks to all the people here who helped me sooo much to get ready for this. If anyone wants to read my day by day for this mini solar set-up, i'll post the link at the bottom.

Soon i'm going to add more panels, and now need to start working on plumbing for her !

http://www.techienation.com/?p=21

ghurd · « **Reply #29 on:** January 17, 2008, 10:03:07 AM »

Now that nobody is watching...

Tip those panels a LOT steeper. Like 60 degrees? They will put out MUCH better in winter (near double?), and the snow won't stick nearly as much.

Remind them... snow covered PVs don't charge batteries.

I see you went with the $3 meter.

G-

DigitalMind · « **Reply #30 on:** January 17, 2008, 12:26:06 PM »

Heheheheh yeah I put that meter on at the last second before I left ... They didn't have much at there local hardware store ... :0 I also bought a snow removal thingy for cars that I stuck by their back door so they remember to clear the panels of snow.

I actually did fix the angle of those panels. In the pictures there, the panels are actually mounted backwards !! (I forgot to take pictures after I put it back the right way)

ghurd : I wanted to send you an email, but I don't see it anywhere so I'll just post the message here since you still seem to be checking this thread : You helped me SOOOO much with this install. You've answered every single one of my posts here, and word it in a great way that always makes sense to me. If ever you're in Montreal, Quebec, send me an email and i'll buy you supper ! You have no idea how much you've helped me ..

ghurd · « **Reply #31 on:** January 18, 2008, 07:59:05 AM »

Thanks. 1000KM and 9.5 hours? I haven't been there in 20 years.

I get lost in Ottawa / Hull about once a year.

Yahoo email ghurd1.

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Author Topic: My first install ! (Read 4930 times)