Author Topic: Battery Reconditioning, Lessons learned.  (Read 14749 times)

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WineGuy

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Battery Reconditioning, Lessons learned.
« on: February 25, 2009, 05:17:28 AM »
This a re-cap of a five month attempt at battery conditioning.

Batteries in the group:

    One 3 year old battery, purchased new

    Three batteries with little or no electrolyte, age unknown,

Methods attempted:

    Smart charger with float mode.

    Trickle charge

    Desulfator

    EDTA.


Lesson 1: DO NOT bother with different sized batteries with differing histories.

It does not pay. The batteries must be used in a group of similar (identical) sizes,

capacities, and histories in order to act the same under charge/discharge cycles.


Lesson 2: Desulfation works, up to a point. All of the batteries was brought

back to (almost) good condition with simple trickle charge, but improved

even farther with Desulfation (pinging). One battery came back to almost

new condition,


Lesson 3: A battery analyzer is a REALLY neat tool. Measuring specific gravity

 and voltage helps, but knowing internal resistance, and KW helps pull them

together to determine the state of the battery.


Lesson 4: The jury is still out on EDTA. It removed a lot of junk from the

batteries, but the end result showed no difference so far. I'm still working

on the technique and will add more later.


One of the best testing methods I used was an inverter, 100 watt light bulb,

and an analog clock. I charged the battery, put it on the inverter, and let it run

until the inverter stopped (around 11 volts), which stopped the clock. Read

the clock to see how many amp hours the battery produced.

You should probably add a diode between the battery and inverter to keep

the final voltage above 11 volts.


I repeated the above sequence twice with the smart charger, twice with the

trickle charger, and three times with the desulfator and trickle charger. The

desulfator and trickle charger produced the best results. The smart charger

produced up to four hours of run time, the trickle charger produces up to 8.

The desulfator and trickle charger (third try) lasted 18 hours. One of the

batteries actually ran for 28 hours. This was one of the "dry" batteries.


I'm still playing with the EDTA, so I have no really good data to post yet.

« Last Edit: February 25, 2009, 05:17:28 AM by (unknown) »

SparWeb

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Re: Battery Reconditioning, Lessons learned.
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2009, 12:51:15 AM »
Thank you for posting this info, and as you learn more, I'm looking forward to reading about it.  I have an old set of AGM's and I have to be careful not to abuse them, so any chance I get to learn about lead acid batteries, even if it's more about the flooded types, the better.


Interesting suggestion about the min voltage in your test, and using a diode to prevent it from going too far down.  I did a similar test and it got down to 10.5V under 30A DC load before I came back to stop it.  Oops, but the OEM's manuals say that it's okay to drain that deeply as long as their re-charged immediately.  


Can you change the low-voltage cut-off set point on your inverter?  I think I can with my Xantrex.  Did you do any direct tests of the DC current and voltage while the inverter was draining your batteries?

« Last Edit: February 25, 2009, 12:51:15 AM by SparWeb »
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ghurd

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Re: Battery Reconditioning, Lessons learned.
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2009, 06:11:45 AM »
The numbers confuse me.


The load takes about 8.7A.  Close enough.


Smart charger, 8.7 x 4 = 34.8 AH.

Trickle charger, 8.7 x 8 = 69.6 AH.

Desulfator and trickle charger, 8.7 x 18 = 156.6 AH.


That's a 450% change.


So will my 100AH battery capacity be 22.2AH if charged with a smart charger,

Or will it be 450AH if charged with a desulfator and trickle charger?


If the trickle charger gets it full to 100AH,

Then smart charger only gets it half full,

And the desulfator gets it over double full?


None of it makes sense to me.

G-

« Last Edit: February 25, 2009, 06:11:45 AM by ghurd »
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sdscott

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Re: Battery Reconditioning, Lessons learned.
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2009, 12:40:59 PM »
The math has dependencies... Is the test numbers obtained using the same battery, or different batteries (eg, the three that were originally dry?).  If the former, what is the original AH rating of the battery? The math would suggest desulfation works! If the later  it leave more questions, such as, what are the actual conditions of the separate batteries used in the experiment, etc...
« Last Edit: February 25, 2009, 12:40:59 PM by sdscott »

ghurd

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Re: Battery Reconditioning, Lessons learned.
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2009, 01:17:12 PM »
I understand that, but the numbers make it sound like a trickle charging desulfator is the only option to get a battery charged worth a hoot.


Either desulfation works too well, or no other charging gets a battery to 50% full?


My guess is the batteries were not left charging long enough to get past surface charge to a true full charge.  Or Peukert played his hand.


#1 is a given.  However is sounds like an old but functional 110AH can not be paralleled with 2 pairs of 6V batteries.  I do that all the time, and it works fine.

I would not do it in series, any more than I would series a 220AH 6V with a 1.2AH 6V.


Not enough info to show meaningful results.


And I do believe desulfation sometimes works.

I have seen (totally unbelievable) results with simple PWM solar controllers, given enough time.

G-

« Last Edit: February 25, 2009, 01:17:12 PM by ghurd »
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WineGuy

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Re: Battery Reconditioning, Lessons learned.
« Reply #5 on: February 25, 2009, 02:31:42 PM »
My last reply did not post, so here I go again.


The tests were done in succession. Remember these batteries were initially almost empty. I only added distilled water to them. The first attempt only gave about one hour of usage. The usage got longer the more times I performed the charge/discharge cycle.


Lesson #4 TAKE GOOD NOTES. These results are from memory, but the batteries are all similar size, and ended up in the same relative condition (except for the one that recovered to "like new" condition).


I started with the smart charger at a 2.5 amp rate, with the float option. I used this two or three times.


I then switched to the dumb charger at the one amp rate. Every time I ran the cycle, the time was extended. It seemed to flatten out at about 8 hours after the fifth or sixth time. I believe the sulphur was being driven off of the plates by the cycling; the more I cycled the higher the SG.


I then tried using the pulser with the dumb charger. At least one of the remaining three batteries got up to 18 hours run time, but I still had low SG.


This is where I am now. I emptied all three, Put in EDTA, pulsed and charged with the EDTA and water. Amazingly the SG rose to about 1.230. I emptied the fluid, added fresh acid and pulse charged the batteries.


I borrowed a battery analyzer and am working on getting these batteries to "good" condition. Right now I have good voltage, low internal resistance, almost good KW, but low SG. I am trying to figure out just what this means. Do I need to "boil off" some of the solution and add more acid? Do I really have a 30% acid solution? Are the batteries as good as they will get? Did I wreck them? I'm still investigating.


I will post follow-ups when I have a better understanding.

« Last Edit: February 25, 2009, 02:31:42 PM by WineGuy »

dnix71

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Re: Battery Reconditioning, Lessons learned.
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2009, 05:13:05 PM »
He's right about the combo of desulfate and trickle charge. I've recovered 2 agm's from work with the combo. Trickle alone wouldn't do it and desulate alone wouldn't do it. I had to repeatedly force one battery down to 6 volts from 12 to get it to recharge fully. That one had a partially reversed cell from too fast a discharge. It was a 1/2 U1 size in a portable car jump start appliance. Jump starting a car with half a U1 agm is gross abuse to the battery.


I just got 2 NiCad packs for a cordless drill back up, too. Each battery pack ("18" volt) is $50 as a replacement, but we bought the Skil drill with 2 batteries for $65. The math didn't look good on battery replacement.


Skil lies about the battery voltage. I broke the plastic seal covering one screw and opened each pack. They have 14 "N" sized NiCads (1.25 x 14 = 17.5).


None of the cells were swelled or leaking. In one pack one cell had zero volts and the others read between 1 and 1.3. Same problem as the agm above. If you discharge the pack too fast you wind up reversing one cell.


The battery charger says it recharges packs from 9.6 to 19.2. That's 'unpossible' to do correctly, esp. with NiCads. There are three LED's with a push button on each battery. Checking the voltage required to light 1,2,3 LED's I realized you only get lights when the battery is plugged in and the charger is running. 20.5 volts is needed for a 'full' reading. That number is actually just about right.


By repeatedly charging each pack and pulling it from the charger and shoving it back in when it stopped, I was able to equalize the two 'dead' packs. Nowhere in the manual does it tell you how to correctly charge and discharge the battery packs.


The boss man was just happy he doesn't have to buy a new drill.

« Last Edit: February 25, 2009, 05:13:05 PM by dnix71 »

tecker

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Re: Battery Reconditioning, Lessons learned.
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2009, 07:02:18 AM »
If you dump the battery to get the BS from the bottom of the the cells and wash with clean water  let the electrolyte settle and siphon it back in the battery leaving ( long 1/4 " nylon with vise grips to valve )the bs at the bottom of the container (ultra clean plastic bucket ). You can get a good start . To see if the battery is in good shape Run a 120 ac cap bridge circuit into the battery . If it's in pretty good shape it will run up in voltage and trail off to a regular charge rate if there is a problem the battery will run up and stay up ( a partial short looks like a capacitor and the cell never charges ).
« Last Edit: February 26, 2009, 07:02:18 AM by tecker »

WineGuy

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Re: Battery Reconditioning, Lessons learned.
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2009, 09:33:03 AM »
My inverter does not have any adjustments for low voltage cutoff.

I tried using a solar panel charge contoller, but learned that it brought the battery down to about 10 volts before I checked it the next morning. I hope I didn't wreck this battery.


I did not do any monitoring of voltage and current during discharge. My goal was to determine how many amp hours I could produce with each charge/discharge cycle. I did not think about monitoring the rate the voltage or current dropped.


Once again, I intentionally started with "junk" batteries to see just how far I could bring them back with the different methods.

« Last Edit: February 26, 2009, 09:33:03 AM by WineGuy »

bob g

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Re: Battery Reconditioning, Lessons learned.
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2009, 02:55:48 PM »
i got a reference somewhere, might be "living on 12volts" or "wiring for 12volts"

by amplepower that talks about agm's built to some sort of european standard.


if they are allowed to go bad, you are supposed to recharge them as far as you can

followed by a complete discharge, then shorting the terminals for 24hours and repeat the process 3 or 4 times and they will comeback to near new condition.


evidently the standard dictates that the battery must be able to be completely dead for a minimum of 30 days and be recovered to get the certification.


i have no idea which battery manufactures build to these standards, but i will look up the reference and post the standards number


might be something to keep an eye out for?


bob g

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WineGuy

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Re: Battery Reconditioning, Lessons learned.
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2009, 05:05:37 PM »
Could you elaborate on the cap bridge please?

« Last Edit: February 26, 2009, 05:05:37 PM by WineGuy »

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Re: Battery Reconditioning, Lessons learned.
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2009, 03:22:19 AM »
I think he is talking about this . . .



« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 03:22:19 AM by wooferhound »

tecker

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Re: Battery Reconditioning, Lessons learned.
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2009, 04:59:18 AM »
That's it . Heed  the warnings and I think a switch has a tendency to stick so just use the plug for disconnect .If you look at the circuit you can see the battery shares a plate with the cap and this is the real work cycle of this circuit as it charges and discharges .
« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 04:59:18 AM by tecker »

SparWeb

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Re: Battery Reconditioning, Lessons learned.
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2009, 02:08:59 PM »
Hi again WineGuy,


Here's what you are trying to create when you are testing battery discharges:



I drew that free-hand so it doesn't represent anything, but it does look a lot like the curves I got when I did tests myself on my AGM's.


The reason you take many measurements during the test is because the voltage, current, and perhaps even the impedance (resistance) of the load will vary.  It will start out dropping the voltage quickly, then stabilize but never remain constant.  Trying to infer something from the 100 Watt rating of your light bulb doesn't get you anywhere.  The inverter is regulating the output, and has inefficiency too, so what the battery sees and what the light bulb sees are two different power figures that move relative to one another.


Repeating a test will show the cumulative effect of repeated recovery methods.  If you were to do this for each of your recovery methods, I think the curves would look different (bumps and flat spots in different places).  

« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 02:08:59 PM by SparWeb »
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commanda

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Re: Battery Reconditioning, Lessons learned.
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2009, 09:17:07 PM »
I've done discharge tests on AGM's, using a bank of big power resistors and a logging multimeter to measure the voltage at regular intervals. Assuming the resistance of the load is a constant (near enough) you can then plug the logged voltages into a spreadsheet, calculate the amps at each voltage reading, and get total amp-hours as final figure.


Amanda

« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 09:17:07 PM by commanda »

WineGuy

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Re: Battery Reconditioning, Lessons learned.
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2009, 02:50:14 PM »
That's why I keep coming back here. I learn something new every time.

Thanks for the neat logging idea. I will try it (in my spare time).


I'm also looking forward to trying the 120 cap bridge idea.

« Last Edit: February 28, 2009, 02:50:14 PM by WineGuy »

Madscientist267

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Re: Battery Reconditioning, Lessons learned.
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2009, 04:19:10 PM »
I've also done successful desulfation on small 12V SLA batteries using a 30V HP printer wall wart and a pot in series.


Its a quick and dirty way to set a current that wont taper off with elevated terminal voltages. In a sulfated battery, one cell is almost always much worse off than the others, interfering with charge current. Placing the battery on a normal charger wont get you anywhere because the current tapers off to almost nothing when it sees the weak cell. The HV and pot combo allows you to keep the current flowing, without risking damage to any of the cells.


The guidelines I've been using for myself:


For small SLA (<5AH) I set it for between 2 and 5mA. C/1000 is the absolute maximum. Higher currents risk causing shorting by distorting or otherwise damaging the remainder of the plates that still exist, leading to dead cells. I almost always lose one when I get impatient and try to use too much current in the early stages. Start out lower for batteries that are in worse shape, and as the battery gains strength, the current can be increased by small amounts. These rates probably should even be determined somehow by what the battery is capable of delivering in a damaged state. More on that some other post...


Terminal voltage during charge in the early phases means almost nothing, unless it is close to your supply voltage, which means the internal resistance of the battery is so high, that it is likely dry, and isn't going to take a charge. The most successful restores have been the ones that read somewhere between 9 and 12V with the application of the initial rate. I've seen lower come back, but they usually end up weak, and take longer. Most have a shorted cell, which of course, means its a candidate for the core pile anyway.


Occasionally, I 'wake' the battery by hitting it with a small load, usually in the C/100 rate range for a few seconds, every few days. This seems to help (dispersing bubbling that has accumulated on the plates?). Here lately I've been considering lowering this during the first stages, maybe as low as say, C/500? Still experimenting with this. Terminal voltages will do all kinds of weird things immediately following this procedure. Usually, it dips radically during the load, and rises sharply and then begins to taper back to nominal after removal (charge current still applied). Like I said, experimental.


The key with desulfation is patience, patience, patience. It can take several weeks to a handful of months to get one back in order again. Remember, batteries don't sulfate overnight, they're not going to resurrect overnight either.


When you can put a C/10 load on for a minute or so without the terminals dropping below 12.0, bump the charge rate up to say, C/500, and let it sit for a couple of weeks. The run time should increase each time the battery gets cycled, but don't go over C/10 for your load, and don't let it go below 12.0V or so. This has a tendency to have a negative effect. As the battery gains health, be mindful of terminal voltages during charge as well - As charge currents increase, so does the risk of damage due to an overcharged cell. Terminal voltages at this point in time should be in the 12.8-13.2 V range at approximately C/500 rate, rising slowly after your 'wake' load. If it still jumps and then falls slowly after a wake, you need to go back to C/1000.


Occasionally, let the battery just sit. 24 hours for every week of charging seems to work well. I'm thinking it lets the cells stabilize and de-gas, further enhancing their ability to take a charge. Start out a little light at first when bringing the charge back, then return up to the 'next level'.


Toward the end, float them up to 14.5 at no more than C/250 or so, and then pull the battery from charge and let it sit. If all is promising, you should see it heading for the 12.6 range (but not lower) in the early finishing, and holding above 13 during later phases, after a 24 hour rest. At this point, normal charge could be used, and the battery can probably be placed in light service, but I usually keep them on charge, reverting back to the C/1000 rate for another couple of weeks for a final equalization type charge.


One final word, don't put them into service immediately following a charge for the first several cycles - I have found that the surface charge dissipates into the 'deeper' charge, and the batteries quickly try to revert to a sulfated state if pushed too hard too soon.


There are no hard code rules, as they all seem to behave differently, but I have resurrected a handful of them to more than 75% original rated capacity using this method. The idea is universal - lower the internal resistance of the entire battery.


How well does it work on FLA? No idea, but SLA seems to respond to it rather well.

« Last Edit: February 28, 2009, 04:19:10 PM by Madscientist267 »
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WineGuy

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Re: Battery Reconditioning, Lessons learned.
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2009, 11:27:03 AM »
Excellent.

Evidently you have "resurrected" more than one battery.


The charge rates you mention seem extremely small. Do you have a milliamp charger, or do you jut put a resistor in series?


What size batteries are you working with? Mine are deep cycle marine batteries, but the labels for CCA etc are either missing or not readable.


True or false: My reasoning is that if I have several batteries that all power a load (100 watt bulb through an inverter) for approximately the same time period, they all have the same capacity. If so, they should be good candidates for a bank; i.e. they will all charge and discharge at the same rate. This also assumes that they are all the same frame size. I believe the ones I have are designated "27" series.


Once again, GREAT synopsis.

« Last Edit: March 01, 2009, 11:27:03 AM by WineGuy »

Madscientist267

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Re: Battery Reconditioning, Lessons learned.
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2009, 03:07:54 PM »
For mine, the charge rate is controlled by nothing more than a 1K limiting resistor in series with a 10K pot.


Since the supply voltage is 30V, less the ~12V nominal terminal voltage, it bottoms out at around ~1.5mA and has a max of about 18mA.


I chose the 1K limiter for two reasons; one is that I can put a flashing LED in there for pulsed operation without worry of blowing it regardless of setting or battery state (been playing with this concept as well). Second, it makes the math easy to measure the current flow. 1V of drop across the resistor translates to 1mA of current.


The batteries are small, 5AH rated, so that is why my charge rates are so small. I couldn't begin to attempt an accurate guess at the rated capacity of the batteries you're working with, but if they're marine deep cycles, they're probably 50AH plus. Assuming that particular value, 50mA is a good place to start. C/1000 seems to be the general idea in the early phases.


If you don't know the capacity, experiment with lower currents until you get the terminal voltage somewhere around about 15 after a couple days at a steady rate. This is probably one of the harder things to determine how much and for how long. They all have behaved somewhat differently, but you dont want to rush them up too high too soon. Problem is, too low of a rate, and you won't be getting much of anywhere; too high and the battery starts behaving unpredictably.


As for the capacities for a bank, parallel is almost always ok regardless of capacity, so long as they all behave roughly the same (settling voltages are roughly in line, etc).


Series is another story. It doesn't take long for a slight imbalance to become a large imbalance, something that 'resurrected' batteries are already going to be prone to. Remember it only takes one cell to start the downward spiral, and the more cells in series, the more likely you are to have imbalances due to weak cells.


This has results that ultimately affect the entire bank: The weak cells will overcharge and overdischarge, further weakening them, and the healthy cells will undercharge because the internal resistance of a cell goes up significantly as it goes into overcharge. This will lead to future degradation of the stronger cells, and reduced capacity and untimely death of the entire bank.


If you must use 'mismatched' batteries of these qualities together in series, I strongly recommend you follow 3 additional guidelines:


1 - Keep the loads light! If the cells are rated 50AH, don't go more than 5 or maybe 10 amps, and even then, keep it short. Resurrected batteries won't tolerate the cycle depth that their 'never-abused' counterparts will.


2 - Keep charge currents a little lower than you would for healthy batteries as well. The same problems arise, only in reverse from discharge. You'll have to compensate for this by longer charge times (and/or even lighter loads if you're using unpredictable charge sources such as wind and solar).


3 - Run enough of them so that you can do a series-parallel configuration; this will help take some of the load off of the weaker cells during both charge and discharge. The more 'sets' you have in parallel, the more robust the entire bank will be, since they will be dividing the load/charge current among each set. See rules #1 & 2.


You've got your work cut out for you if you intend to use resurrected batteries in a bank, particularly series. You may also want to look into a balanced charging system (can be a real pain in the a$$ for larger banks).


Steve

« Last Edit: March 01, 2009, 03:07:54 PM by Madscientist267 »
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Madscientist267

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Re: Battery Reconditioning, Lessons learned.
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2009, 11:38:39 PM »
At the risk of (further?) 'hijacking'...


I'd like to elaborate on the "drain-em-as-far-as-you-can" approach.


I set aside a pseudo-sacrificial SLA (12V,~1AH) that has been particularly ornery, and made it a special victim of experimentation. Several batteries have exhibited a 'cant make up my mind' behavior when a short is trying to develop in a cell, and this one seems to be no exception. So I figured, what the hell...


This usually manifests as a loaded terminal voltage that fluctuates (somewhere in the 1V range for nominal 12, with >C/10 load), erratically and unpredictably. It almost appears that the meter is malfunctioning, but two of them wouldn't be lying at the same time. In this case, at 275mA, it is drops to about 9.25 on the immediate level, but as it passes on down through the 8.5V range, it occasionally spikes to 9.5+. To me, this points to a shorting cell.. Likely a weak one that is shorting out and decreasing the overall resistance of the entire battery... ? Right?


But I wonder about what the benefits of draining them ridiculously low might be, since this is when the shorts seem to develop. In the past, once a short has set in, I can never get rid of it again (can't get the current high enough to zap it away, since the other cells are limiting the current due to their also weakened state). NiCd comes to mind. Even if I got rid of it, wouldn't it come back later to haunt me?


The battery seems to behaving otherwise surprisingly well, given I am discharging it at somewhere just shy of C/2. I've gone through several different trials and errors with lead-acid in particular, and this concept has always seemed against the rules of forward progress, but in this case, at times (even without the short 'manifesting'), deeper discharging seems to be having an overall positive effect. I'm just worried about a short that sticks... :(


I'm not beyond doing crazy things to bring back a battery; in the mid 90's, I brought back an almost completely sulfated FLA to [a paltry] 25% or so of it's rated capacity by repeatedly zapping it with charged electrolytics (couple hundred joules from 300VDC), followed by heavy discharges. But I got away from these ideas when friends and I agreed alike that it was a good idea to quit when we decided that the 'scary' popping sound was probably hydrogen-oxygen in stoich on the verge of ignition), so the experimentation ended. Nobody likes to get blown up. At the other end of the spectrum, extremely low charge rates followed by very modest discharge rates seemed to have the most promising effect.


This one makes me doubt everything I know.


Thoughts? Comments?


Steve

« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 11:38:39 PM by Madscientist267 »
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