Author Topic: Blades  (Read 2495 times)

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icicle

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Blades
« on: December 20, 2006, 07:40:09 AM »
Has anyone giving 4,6,8 blade gennie any thought for low wind

although I have not built one yet still in the plan stage

All advice is welcome
« Last Edit: December 20, 2006, 07:40:09 AM by (unknown) »

Seaspray0

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Re: Blades
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2006, 11:34:31 AM »
As a newbie, I am also interested in this subject.  I've seen a few designs so far and you guys have a pretty good handle on designing but the steps seem to be confusing.  As an example, suppose I wanted to build a generator with 4 foot blades.  I can get a fair indication of the power I'll be able to make from the swept area.  But what's next?  Do I need to pick a tip speed ratio (TSR) next and design the generator from there to work at the expected average RPM I'll get from the average wind velocity here?  How do I pick the right TSR?  Am I going about this from the wrong end?  Is the TSR selected first and the generator designed around that or is the TSR selected based on the generator which is designed first?
« Last Edit: December 20, 2006, 11:34:31 AM by Seaspray0 »

icicle

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Re: Blades
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2006, 12:57:29 PM »
« Last Edit: December 20, 2006, 12:57:29 PM by icicle »

ghurd

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Re: Blades
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2006, 01:09:28 PM »
It is best, I think, to make the generator first, while keeping in mind the blades it is intended to match.

It seems to be easier to match blades to a generator, than match a generator to blades.


More blades need a lower TSR than less blades of the same diameter.

The Benz limit, TSR, drag (somewhat), and swept area will limit the choices.

A 3 blade unit usually wins.


G-

« Last Edit: December 20, 2006, 01:09:28 PM by ghurd »
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SparWeb

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Re: Blades
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2006, 01:12:52 PM »
You had better start with the purpose you intend.  If it's purely for fun, make it any size you're comfortable with.  If you have a particular task in mind, then you need to capture enough energy to get it done.  Consider the wind available, how high you can mount it, and then pin down a diameter that will work.  Try comparing your needs with various other practical turbines displayed on this site, to get a "feel" for what works.

If at this point you're picking a TSR, bear in mind that high TSR may sound more efficient, because it's faster, but the stresses on virtually everything are higher.  Designing for a modest TSR, like 5, on your first try is probably better.

« Last Edit: December 20, 2006, 01:12:52 PM by SparWeb »
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snuffy

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Re: Blades
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2006, 01:29:36 PM »
icicle


I have a small (3ft) running with 4 blades. It's on a stepper motor so the output is negligible.   Most on this site, think that an even number bladed prop will vibrate. I can agree that a 2 bladed one would. However my 4 bladed one is very smooth even when it is screaming fast.  I am building another 4 bladed one 3 meters in diameter (see my diary).  I see no reason that an even number (above 2) should have yaw vibration problems provided it is well balanced.  

« Last Edit: December 20, 2006, 01:29:36 PM by snuffy »

icicle

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Re: Blades
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2006, 10:06:01 PM »
can you send me some plans on your small gennie, how did you wire your stepper motor, and what size is it.




Do you know what the voltage is and the current output is




thanks


« Last Edit: December 22, 2006, 10:06:01 PM by icicle »

DanB

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Re: Blades
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2006, 07:37:27 PM »
I'll make some comments.  Som eof the questions are a bit tricky for a trial and error fellow like me but...


"As a newbie, I am also interested in this subject.  I've seen a few designs so far and you guys have a pretty good handle on designing but the steps seem to be confusing."


Starting from scratch is sort of tricky and I think some trial and error is necessary.  I tend to get a pretty good handle on teh sort of power I can expect at any given rpm from an alternator though by looking at past projects.  Starting from scratch  - I would build the magnet rotors, and test a coil in there.  It gives a starting point anyhow.  


  "As an example, suppose I wanted to build a generator with 4 foot blades.  I can get a fair indication of the power I'll be able to make from the swept area.  But what's next?  Do I need to pick a tip speed ratio (TSR) next and design the generator from there to work at the expected average RPM I'll get from the average wind velocity here?"


Yes, and build it powerful enough so that it won't burn up in higher winds  - in other words, keep resistance low enough so that it's efficient enough so that too much heat doesn't build up.


"  How do I pick the right TSR?  Am I going about this from the wrong end?  Is the TSR selected first and the generator designed around that or is the TSR selected based on the generator which is designed first?"


I think about any reasonable machine you woud plan for TSR between 5 and 7 'average'.  In practice, TSR will vary depending on the wind speed because the alternator will not track the cubic power curve of the wind (without an electronic MPPT controller of some sort anyhow).  I usually like to think we'll be running TSR around 6 in 'average' winds.  At 'cutin' you have to figure the TSR will be extra high because there is no load on the machine below cutin, so I usually figure TSR of 8 or so at cutin, and then it drops off from there hopefully.  I expect my 20' machine runs at TSR of 4 or so in high winds and cuts in at TSR around 8.


I usually start out planning the diameter of the machine - build an alternator that's suitable for that sort of power at those speeds and then test it.  Often times the alternator does not do exactly what I'd expect so then the plans for blades might change a bit from there.


A good safe way to go in my opinion - if it's a new design, is build your alternator on the heavy side (too powerful) and get the cutin speed right or too low..  not in an extreme way but it's good to lean on too powerful.  From there - if its too slow you can open the airgap - if resistance is too low and it stalls the blades you can add resistance downstream.  For a 'new' machine it's not the worst way to go - a bit more cost and weight but it's better to come out on the 'too powerful' side of things and have to detune the machine than it is to come out on the 'not powerful enough' side and burn out or have a machine that runs very fast/makes noise etc.

« Last Edit: December 23, 2006, 07:37:27 PM by DanB »
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wooferhound

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« Last Edit: December 24, 2006, 10:33:53 AM by wooferhound »

bj

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Re: Blades
« Reply #9 on: December 29, 2006, 08:48:58 AM »


   Fairly new at this myself, but, to answer your question on number

of blades, I have been running six for about a year and a half,

with no problems. (5 ft. dia. composite mat'l)

  Vibration is very small, and considering all,  turns in fairly

low winds.

  It does tend to make a banshee wail in really high winds.  High

being 60 to 80 K.m. per hour.  

  I have no furling, and have been waiting for this to bite me,

but so far, so good.

  As far as the blades are concerned, I would rate as durable.

  Don't know if this helps.

  bj
« Last Edit: December 29, 2006, 08:48:58 AM by bj »
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icicle

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Re: Blades
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2006, 01:27:37 AM »
BJ.


do you have any pictures of your set up
« Last Edit: December 31, 2006, 01:27:37 AM by icicle »