Author Topic: Generator/Alternator  (Read 3942 times)

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jjwagner70

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Generator/Alternator
« on: September 17, 2007, 09:29:00 PM »
Hi,


  1.  I'm trying to find a way to build a low RPM generator or alternator with a VERY HIGH Voltage out put with no eddy currents or cogging.  I'm not sure wich one works better.  Is pure DC the best for recharging batteries?  If so, how do I go about building one?
  2.  Do you also know which is better for wiring, Star or Delta and where I can find a wiring diagram?
  3.  I know the voltage out put depends a lot on the coils and magnets.  Do you know the best way to make the coils.  Is it the gauge and the number of coils and turns or all the above?  Also, the best magnets to use, size and strength?  I know Neodymium N40+ are suppose to be great for generators/alternators.


I'm looking for large wedge or Arc shape magnets to make a rotor.  Any information would be greatly appreciated!


Thanks,


James  jjwagner70@yahoo.com

« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 09:29:00 PM by (unknown) »

Hilltopgrange

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Re: Generator/Alternator
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2007, 03:41:10 PM »
You have come to the right place! but the best advice is to start reading the old posts as all your questions have been asked and many times over. Use the search tab but be warned your in for a long read!

Have fun !

Russell
« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 03:41:10 PM by Hilltopgrange »
How many windmills do I have to build to become a windmillologist?

spinningmagnets

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Re: Generator/Alternator
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2007, 06:47:23 PM »
Hi James, don't get discouraged, but you need to start a couple of blank documents, and then copy/paste any applicable paragraphs you find that are helpful to what you are looking for.


The 10' diameter windmill on the home page is the result of many years of research by some very intelligent and sincere enthusiasts. Compare everything you learn against the way that this alternator is laid out.


I am a newbie too, and I will probably butcher the explanation I'm about to give you, but I will give you what I "think" I have learned recently from this site. (grab a cup of coffee, and if you're really quiet, you can almost hear the laughing!)


If you take a coil of wire, and spin a magnet in the center of it, a meter will read out a small "burst" of voltage from the two leads, then (if the magnet continues to spin at a constant RPM) it will drop to a lower but constant output. The drop is due to built up resistance to flow, and if we can find a way to make use of a bunch of overlapping "start-up" pulses, we can double the output without making the expensive magnets or coils bigger.


By making a ring of coils and passing magnets near them there will be a series of pulses, and it was also then found that if you alternate the direction of the pulses, you will get an even bigger output from the same size alt.


If a set of coils is all connected together like a ring of people all holding hands, and at the same time, you have a rotor with the same number of magnets, every time a magnet passes over a coil all at the same time, the output would noticeable "pulse", and a bulb connected to this would visibly flicker. This is called "one phase"


Two-phase is slightly smoother, but 3-phase has a fairly smooth output. If you are converting an electric motor to an alt, and it has an even number of coils, you may wish to make it 4-phase (or more) rather than the flickering 2-phase.


If you are making a Permanent Magnet Alternator (PMA) from scratch, and you are certain you want 3-phase, you will need to make 3 coils per 4 magnets. If you make an oval coil of copper wire, the two long sides are the "legs" and the short ends just connect the two legs. When two opposing magnets are over the two legs (N facing one leg, S facing the other), one magnet is pulling electrons, and the other magnet is pushing them. Any extra copper wire outside the magnetic flux field will make the path longer (adding resistance) without adding to the coil output. Most builders consider a wedge shaped coil with two slightly narrower wedge shaped magnets sitting over the coil legs to give the biggest output from the smallest alt.


The size (depth and shape) of the strong part of the magnets flux field determines the optimum coil size and shape. Once that size and shape is determined, the best volume of copper for the coil is set. Many wraps of a small diameter wire will provide a higher voltage but lower amps due to a long path with a lot of heat from resistance. A few wraps of a fatter diameter wire will provide lower voltage but higher amps with less heat.


The invisible magnetic field of a magnet is called its "flux" and if you take a round magnet that has its north and south poles on the flat faces, you can put this magnets edge under a piece of paper and sprinkle iron filings on top of the paper to see the shape of the N and S fields. If you put a steel plate on one side of the magnet, it will pull in the flux on that side, and strengthen the other side. If you place an opposing magnet with a steel backing near the first magnet, the flux between the two will be very strong (N facing the stator on one side, S facing the same spot on the stator but on the other side). Two magnetic "rotors" spinning with a stationary "stator" of coils in the middle is called a dual-rotor.


The magnets are stronger the closer you get to them, so the distance you place the magnet to the coil is called the "air gap". Since the magnet wants to stay by the metal coil (called "cogging"), a big air-gap will allow it to spin in light winds but have a lower output, a close gap will require a stronger wind before it will begin to spin, but have a higher output once it does begin spinning.


An "axial" is like a pancake spinning next to another pancake that isn't spinning. A "radial" is like a soda can spinning inside a slightly larger soda can. When you convert an electric motor to an alt, it is a single rotor radial.


When you have 3 coils for 4 magnets, two magnets will be located properly at any given moment to push/pull on a coil, and another coil will have a magnet set falling off, while another coil will have a magnet set pulling into place. For 3-phase you can have 3c/4m, 6c/8m, 9c/12m...depending on the size of your magnets and the size of your spinning disc.


If you wire the coils in "Star/Wye" it will provide higher voltage, but lower amps, if you wire them in "Delta" it will be the opposite, lower volts and higher amps.


I don't understand wiring the coils in "series or parallel" yet, but each has its benefit and drawback, depending on the application.


"cut-in" is when the alt begins spinning fast enough to actually start charging your battery, and "furling" is when the windmill begins spinning so fast that a mechanical device turns it away from the wind so it doesn't fly apart (and it then stops charging).


A transformer will change high voltage to low voltage, and a rectifier will convert AC to DC. High voltage will travel farther without weakening, so, in this way a high-voltage alternator on a windy hill can provide a low 12/24/48 volts DC to charge a battery pack in your garage.


There are many ways to make a generator, depending on what you can afford, or what you can get free/cheap, but this seems to be the best bang for your buck/time/effort.

« Last Edit: September 17, 2007, 06:47:23 PM by spinningmagnets »

ghurd

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Re: Generator/Alternator
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2007, 05:46:11 AM »
« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 05:46:11 AM by ghurd »
www.ghurd.info<<<-----Information on my Controller

finnsawyer

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Re: Generator/Alternator
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2007, 08:49:57 AM »
You've already foreclosed other options with your second question.  However, I'll give the link below just to show you there are other possibilities.


     http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/4/21/16237/9933


 

« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 08:49:57 AM by finnsawyer »

jjwagner70

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Re: Generator/Alternator
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2007, 12:56:12 PM »
Hey Russell,


Thanks, I'll put the coffee on and start reading!


James

« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 12:56:12 PM by jjwagner70 »

jjwagner70

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Re: Generator/Alternator
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2007, 01:18:45 PM »
WOW, thanks for all the info!  That helped explain a lot.  You mention a 4 phase or more, what is the benefit of 4 or more?  Also, would winding the coils in a circle really tightly work?  I'm tying to get the highest voltage with the least resistance/cogging.  Do stronger magnets play a big roll in the voltage output too and should there be a space between the magnets or not?


Thanks,


James

« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 01:18:45 PM by jjwagner70 »

jjwagner70

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Re: Generator/Alternator
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2007, 01:25:04 PM »
I guess there are a lot of possibilities.  I'll have to try a few.


Thanks,


J

« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 01:25:04 PM by jjwagner70 »

TomW

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Re: Generator/Alternator
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2007, 01:42:31 PM »
jj;


Just want to pass on a bit of advice [worth every cent you paid for it]:


For your first alternator, Do Not make the mistake of building an unproven design like shown in that FinS Diary. It could be the best thing since sliced bread but nobody has reported back either way on it.


Build a proven design that you know will at least work as described, then go on to "theoretically" better designs after your knowledge base expands.


If you like tinkering and can afford both time and funds then, by all means, dive in and experiment. If you want a useful energy producer in reasonable time and a limited budget build a proven design like DanB or Hugh Piggot build.


This is not a slam on anyone, just good, general advice. You need to learn to walk before you start running the high hurdles.


Cheers.


TomW

« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 01:42:31 PM by TomW »

jjwagner70

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Re: Generator/Alternator
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2007, 06:30:48 PM »
Hey Tom,


Thanks!  


Man I wish I could just talk to someone on the phone or in person that knows A LOT about generators/alernators!  Well, as my mother would always say, "wish in one hand and sh** in the other and see which one fills up faster." LOL!


Thanks,


J


P.S. If any one on here knows a lot about generators/alternators and would mind talking to someone that's trying to make a difference in the world, PLEASE let me know!

« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 06:30:48 PM by jjwagner70 »

wdyasq

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Re: Generator/Alternator
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2007, 06:43:59 PM »
Best thing for you to do will be to get Hugh Piggot's books and read all of 'otherpower.com'. From there, you may be gaining enough information to ask an intelligent question.


You will also see many examples of successful wind machines. One type that should not be overlooked is the 'conversion' of a 3 phase motor to a permanent magnet alternator. Some DC motors can make good generators.


Remember, this is not a 'cheap' hobby. What you save in money, you pay for in labor. However, IMO, one can build a mill better suited to their wind conditions than is commercially available.


Ron

« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 06:43:59 PM by wdyasq »
"I like the Honey, but kill the bees"

jjwagner70

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Re: Generator/Alternator
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2007, 07:20:33 PM »
Thanks, will do.


J

« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 07:20:33 PM by jjwagner70 »

TomW

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Re: Generator/Alternator
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2007, 07:45:40 PM »
jj;




Man I wish I could just talk to someone on the phone or in person that knows A LOT about generators/alernators!


Well, the IRC is pretty close and has the advantage of a group to interact with and we are "live" 24/7/365. My .sig has a clickable link that can get you there to give it a try. We are an international group of RE enthusiasts and we enjoy helping out. Even Ron is nice there.


Otherwise this url will help get set up to do IRC:


http://www.otherpower.com/opchat.html


The real meat on how is here:


http://www.otherpower.com/opchat.html#irchelp


Please consider this my personal invitation to stop by and pick some brains.


We have users who are off grid 100%, a few electronics pros, a few builders and a few others. There is a pretty good cross section of knowledge and experience over here.


It is pretty laid back so it can sometimes take awhile to get a response but well worth it.


Unlike on the board, posers do not last long.

Cheers.


TomW

« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 07:45:40 PM by TomW »

spinningmagnets

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Re: Generator/Alternator
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2007, 09:31:48 PM »
The strength and shape of the magnets flux determines the best shape for the coil.


Expensive strong magnets will have a higher output from the same size of PMA than one made from cheap weak magnets.


If you make a PMA with 12 coils, one phase will give you 12 distinct strong pulses per revolution. 2-phase will give you 24 half strength pulses, and 3-phase will give you 36 1/3rd strength pulses. They all have the same total wattage output, but one flutters badly, and 3 is pretty smooth. 4 or more is even smoother (I've read about 5 and 7, too), but most batteries won't notice any difference.


If you are converting an electric motor with 8 coils, you can make it either 1-phase (all coils together) 2-phase (two sets of 4 coils) or 4-phase (4 sets of two coils) 3 will not divide into 8 evenly. The fewer phases, the more a bulb connected to it will visibly flicker, the more phases, the smoother the output will be.


If you're making a PMA from scratch, 3-phase is the minimum to get the type of smooth output that seems to work well when charging battery packs,


The featured 10' wind-gen uses a robust and cheap car brake disc, spindle and bearing. It starts making about 100 watts in a gentle 10 MPH wind, and makes around 1,000 watts just before it begins furling away at around 25 MPH. It is really hard to beat these numbers and it only costs $300-500.


Do you want to experiment in hopes of finding out something new, do you want to make something that works as a learning experience, or something else?


"Until I was thirteen, I thought my name was 'Shutup'." -Joe Namath.

« Last Edit: September 18, 2007, 09:31:48 PM by spinningmagnets »

finnsawyer

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Re: Generator/Alternator
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2007, 08:21:22 AM »
I've already discussed a possible way to compare the two types of alternators without permanently committing one's high priced magnets, or coils for that matter.  It all boils down to how ingenious one is, and I believe there are some very ingenious and capable people frequenting this site.  More capable than I am.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2007, 08:21:22 AM by finnsawyer »

dinges

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Re: Generator/Alternator
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2007, 09:54:09 AM »
"Even Ron is nice there."


To you maybe...

« Last Edit: September 19, 2007, 09:54:09 AM by dinges »
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kurt

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Re: Generator/Alternator
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2007, 01:16:58 PM »
tom, you forgot one helpful link for getting on irc http://oneota.net/~teejaydubya/IRC/chatpage.html
« Last Edit: September 19, 2007, 01:16:58 PM by kurt »

DanB

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Re: Generator/Alternator
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2007, 07:51:51 PM »
GeoM - I made a breif comment on all this a couple years ago?  At any rate - again - in my mind, your design does not seem to make much sense.  I'm sure it would work - I doubt it would work very well for a given qty of magnets and copper.  I expect if it did somebody would be doing things that way!  I wish you would stop suggesting that new folks here try to build the thing.  I may have misconceptions about this (but I don't think so) - if you're so very keen on it after all this time why dont you build it yourself and report the results.  Even somebody stuck in an apt. with a desk, a bottle of super glue and a few dollars should be able to test this vs other designs.  Nobody has done it yet - I don't honestly feel inspired myself.  In all the time you've put fourth promoting this I expect you could've built it yourself by now a few times over.


Sorry...  /rant

(grouchy tonight)

« Last Edit: September 19, 2007, 07:51:51 PM by DanB »
If I ever figure out what's in the box then maybe I can think outside of it.

finnsawyer

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Re: Generator/Alternator
« Reply #18 on: September 22, 2007, 09:52:51 AM »
Well, you can ban me if you wish, in which case I won't be back.  We can only take people at their word.  The fellow says that he'd like to contribute something new.  Well, I thought I was contributing something new with the design, but all I get is told to crawl back in my hole.  


As far as your "misconceptions", if any, in the standard three phase design a single coil generates its voltage as it passes over two magnets of opposite polarity.  In my design two coils arranged in the proper time phase generate their voltages by passing over two opposite polarity magnets.  Their voltages when added give the same pulse profile as the three phase case.  That is, the pulse would be the same if the coils were moving relative to the magnets at the same rate in both cases.  In point of fact, in my design the relative speed would be greater, giving a larger voltage pulse.  What particularly bugs me is you, TomW, and others continually put down the design, but that no one has ever even attempted to refute my arguments.  You all have your opinions, but apparently they are not based on any kind of rational analysis.  Personally, I'd love to see someone on the University level take this and run with it.  Anyone need a Master's thesis?  There's nothing like having the machine shops at your disposal.  I know, I've been there.  But I'm not there now and have other issues to deal with.


Note to Poster:  When I first started on the Internet I ran across a comment by a person saying that there was nothing new in wind power.  Well, after more than two years on this site I know why.  If you really want to contribute something new you will have to break through the confines of this "box".  One would think that with some 7,000 visitors to the site there would be people with original ideas, and there are.  But the people most closely associated with the site seem to have closed minds.  This may actually put off some people.  Nevertheless you can advance the cause here.  When I first started here I was not interested in alternator design.  As a result of various discussions the idea for the design presented itself.  In spite of the fact that they don't like it, it is the son of Otherpower.  I've been accused of changing my mind.  Well, as one's understanding progresses, one sometimes has to change their mind.  My real interest was in blade and mill design, and I must say that in spite of the short comings of the site, my thoughts in that area have advanced.  I don't get as much static in that area probably because it is a more obscure area whereas everyone thinks they know alternators.  Hey, you build one, you know everything there is to know, right?  In any case, enjoy the ride.    

« Last Edit: September 22, 2007, 09:52:51 AM by finnsawyer »

vawtman

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Re: Generator/Alternator
« Reply #19 on: September 22, 2007, 11:58:11 AM »
Fins


 Awhile back i asked if your design could be used with my 32in rotor.Seems thats what you want(large rotor}But no reply,Why?

How many poles?

How many coils and the span?

 Im still interested.


 Mark

« Last Edit: September 22, 2007, 11:58:11 AM by vawtman »

DanB

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Re: Generator/Alternator
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2007, 12:19:30 PM »
Hi Geo - forgive me, I tend sometimes to get grouchy and a bit 'snitty' and usually regreat that after the fact.  Bottom line is though, I think somebody starting out trying to build something that actually works from scratch would do well to go with some designs that are known to work and they'd do well to try to avoid mistakes that have been made allready.  The alternator design you proposed a couple years ago and keep promoting makes no real sense to me  - I know it would work, but I think it's a poor way to use resources, at the end of the day I think you'll wind up with something that has a lot of room for improvement.  I've not built it - that's just my opinion based on what I think I understand about this stuff.  And I find it frustrating that you keep pushing this design yet nobody has built it yet - I expect if it made sense to somebody who was a builder and did understand this stuff, plenty of folks would be doing it now.


"Well, you can ban me if you wish, in which case I won't be back."


Of course I won't ban you ;-)  it takes some pretty serious abuse of this forum to get banned and you often contribute great stuff for which I (and lots of other folks) are grateful.


  "We can only take people at their word.  The fellow says that he'd like to contribute something new."


Yes...  nice when folks contribute something new, but it's good to have an idea about what's been done in the past and have some idea about where room for improvement might lie.


"  Well, I thought I was contributing something new with the design, but all I get is told to crawl back in my hole. "


It's not so new anymore and it's been discussed a great deal over the last couple years.  There is a reason I've not built it - and I expect there are reasons other folks here haven't either.  On paper - to me - it seems like a poor use of magnets, wire and space.  Again - I could be wrong - I have been surprised many times before and I think I was wrong about something once but I don't recall for sure ;-)


"As far as your "misconceptions", if any, in the standard three phase design a single coil generates its voltage as it passes over two magnets of opposite polarity.  In my design two coils arranged in the proper time phase generate their voltages by passing over two opposite polarity magnets.  Their voltages when added give the same pulse profile as the three phase case.  That is, the pulse would be the same if the coils were moving relative to the magnets at the same rate in both cases.  In point of fact, in my design the relative speed would be greater, giving a larger voltage pulse.  What particularly bugs me is you, TomW, and others continually put down the design, but that no one has ever even attempted to refute my arguments.  You all have your opinions, but apparently they are not based on any kind of rational analysis.  Personally, I'd love to see someone on the University level take this and run with it.  Anyone need a Master's thesis?  There's nothing like having the machine shops at your disposal.  I know, I've been there.  But I'm not there now and have other issues to deal with."


Like I said finsawyer - you can build it/test your idea with bits of wood/super glue and a little copper wire and a few magnets on an office desk in one evening if you want to.  Should be pretty easy.  I'm not in the mood to discuss the overall design at this point, I have before and there's been lots of discussion about it.  I don't like it for what I think are good reasons though - and whenever you suggest that a new user build it you invite the opinions of people like me...  I guess you're welcome to keep promoting the idea and perhaps someday somebody will build it, but in doing so don't be surprised when folks (like me) respond with their honest opinions.  And again - its possible Im wrong, it might work quite well and if it did then it would certainly change my thinking about things...


"Note to Poster:  When I first started on the Internet I ran across a comment by a person saying that there was nothing new in wind power.  Well, after more than two years on this site I know why."


Yes - I totally disagree.  Look at the stuff that was being posted here 6 years ago, 4 years ago - 2 years ago etc.  machines are looking better, getting more powerful, constructions methods are improving.  Homebrew windpower has become quite workable for lots of people.  6 years ago, a homebrew wind turbine that worked at all was quite a rare thing.


 " If you really want to contribute something new you will have to break through the confines of this "box"."


yes, and untill you know whats in that 'box' and why its there to begin with you'd never know if you were out of it  - or improving upon it etc ...


 "One would think that with some 7,000 visitors to the site there would be people with original ideas, and there are.  But the people most closely associated with the site seem to have closed minds."


I think after you make a lot of mistakes, and see lots of other people make mistakes you're mind will hopefully close to certain bad ideas.


  "This may actually put off some people."


I'm sure it does.  Lots of people don't want to hear certain truths and when they do they tend to get put off.


"  Nevertheless you can advance the cause here. "


Agreed.


" When I first started here I was not interested in alternator design.  As a result of various discussions the idea for the design presented itself.  In spite of the fact that they don't like it, it is the son of Otherpower.  I've been accused of changing my mind.  Well, as one's understanding progresses, one sometimes has to change their mind."


Agreed - I feel much differently about lots of things than I did when we started this and I expect 6 years ago I'd have argued against all sorts of stuff I do now (I would've been wrong).


"  My real interest was in blade and mill design, and I must say that in spite of the short comings of the site, my thoughts in that area have advanced.  I don't get as much static in that area probably because it is a more obscure area whereas everyone thinks they know alternators.  Hey, you build one, you know everything there is to know, right?  In any case, enjoy the ride. "


yes -enjoy the ride, and Finsawyer... no offense intended I hope you understand.  Thank you for all that you contribute here!  I know we all put fourth some crazy ideas sometimes ;-)  

« Last Edit: September 22, 2007, 12:19:30 PM by DanB »
If I ever figure out what's in the box then maybe I can think outside of it.

finnsawyer

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Re: Generator/Alternator
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2007, 08:38:34 AM »
I'm sorry to hear that I missed your posting.  I do miss responses occasionally and yours must have got buried some how.  I would suggest as a first step to decide what size magnets and coils you would use for a three phase 16 inch diameter and then go to the 32 inch diameter and make sure everything will fit.  At 32 inches you have a 100 inch circumference to fill, but nothing should extent past the rim.  With 24 magnets, for instance, the magnets will be spaced every 15 degrees.  Since there are going to be 36 coils they will be spaced every 10 degrees.  The rule is that when a coil is directly over a magnet at say the 12 o'clock position the leading edge of the following coil in either direction will just be touching the next magnet.  That determines the radius to the magnet and coil centers.  You have to decide what magnets you wish to use.  Within that choice then there would be a maximum size coil that would allow everything to fit.  If the coil size doesn't work for you, you could go to either 22 or 26 magnets (for this example).  You can do the analysis for different assumed magnet and coil sizes.  If you try this and have any questions feel free to respond to this comment.  I'll try to keep an eye out.  Good luck.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2007, 08:38:34 AM by finnsawyer »

finnsawyer

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Re: Generator/Alternator
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2007, 09:00:50 AM »
I've got pretty thick skin.  At least that is what my doctor says.  So, I'm not taking any offense.  I do like to get into discussions about theory.  That's the way I'm wired, or maybe the result of training.  But I do realize that we people often times end up talking past each other, which tends to stretch things out.  And some people lose patience.  So, I try to take things with good humor.  Oh, yeah, I get grouchy too.


As far as telling people about my proposed design is concerned, as I stated, the problem is that we can't really tell what a person means when they say they want to experiment or do something new or improve on things.  Nor do we know their background.  We can only take them at their word.  As far as I'm concerned my aim was to reach the one person in 7,000? who really intends to experiment.  Well, that doesn't seem to be working, so my latest thinking is to point to the design as a way to give insights into how an alternator works.  Let's see how that works out.

« Last Edit: September 23, 2007, 09:00:50 AM by finnsawyer »

vawtman

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Re: Generator/Alternator
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2007, 10:47:47 AM »
I thought your design was for single phase.


I have 60 1x2x.50 n42s and have gotten great advice from Ed,Willib and others.Just looking at all options.


 I understand the basic alternator winding.


 Your saying a mag every 4in roughly with an elongated coil like your drawing.Right?


 A drawing for this would be cool.


 Its a radial machine.


 Thanks

« Last Edit: September 23, 2007, 10:47:47 AM by vawtman »

DanB

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Re: Generator/Alternator
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2007, 12:29:28 PM »
Well - I think lots of people do experiment here...  I know I do, but I spend most of my time building upon stuff that I've done in the past.


I'm all for experimenting - it is important for people to understand odds of starting out with something completely new and actually winding up with something that works.  If your goal is to just have fun and experiment then great-  hopefully get a grip on what others have done (find out whats in that box) and go from there and have fun!  If you want to build something that works well and actually have a need for electricity and want to get it done for reasonable cost, in a reasonable amount of time... probably best to look at what other people have done that works.  I suppose most folks are somewhere in between.


There are a lot of good experiments going around there though...  

and our membership is pushing more like 9000 now actually!!

« Last Edit: September 23, 2007, 12:29:28 PM by DanB »
If I ever figure out what's in the box then maybe I can think outside of it.

finnsawyer

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Re: Generator/Alternator
« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2007, 09:12:58 AM »
It does give a single phase output.  The reason for considering the three phase is that as a rule of thumb using the same number of the same magnets and identical coils as the three phase would require about twice the radius for my design.  In any case 60 magnets would not work with my design at a radius of 16 inches, but 24 might.  With 24 magnets and 36 coils we can make an assumption and do a quick calculation.  Assume the coils are 2 inches wide and the long sides are oriented radially.  At zero degrees we have a coil centered over a magnet.  The second coil is centered at 10 degrees and the second magnet at 15 degrees.  Since that coil is just starting to go over the second magnet, we find that within that 5 degree difference we must have half a coil's width plus half a magnet's width or about 1.5 inches.  This gives a radius of  17.2 inches, which is somewhat too large.  Dropping down to 33 coils and 22 magnets gives a radius of about 15.75 inches.  If you wanted to fit 24 magnets on the rotor you could make the coils smaller.  A width of 1.8 for the coils would give 16 inches for the radius.  But you would have decreased the number of turns on the coils by 20% for an increase in the number of magnets or flux of 9%.  You have also packed more magnets into the same distance around, which means the magnets move past the coils in 9% less time, boosting the voltage.  The net effect is you would expect only a 2% drop in voltage for the same RPM.  You would also have reduced the resistance per coil by more than 20%, but then increased the number of coils by 9%, so you would get the possibility of more power at slightly lower voltage.  In fact, let's assume the resistance per coil drops from one ohm to 0.8 ohms.  Before, we have a total of 33 ohms resistance.  Afterwards, 0.8x36 = 28.8 ohms, which means the resistance has dropped by 14.6%.  In reality the drop would be greater.  Not a bad trade off, but one probably couldn't carry it to an extreme.  Sixteen inches to where?  I said the center, but maybe not.  If the rotor diameter is 32 inches, then presumably it would be the narrow edge of the coil.  The center would be 1.5 inches in.  Same for the magnets.  This would result in some miss match in the overlap, but might not be too significant.  That's enough verbiage for now.  Have fun.      
« Last Edit: September 24, 2007, 09:12:58 AM by finnsawyer »

vawtman

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Re: Generator/Alternator
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2007, 06:26:16 PM »
Fin i think i see what your saying.


 With 60mags/120cls rotating at a blur at only 60rpms the losses would start piling up quickly.


 With your design they would spend more time within the coil but the coil would have a higher resistance.Right


 Just wonder whats better.


 Im still thinkin on the stator steel yet.

« Last Edit: September 26, 2007, 06:26:16 PM by vawtman »

finnsawyer

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Re: Generator/Alternator
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2007, 09:29:49 AM »
My thinking now is you would be better off going with the three phase with all 60 magnets.  With 60 magnets on the three phase you need 45 coils.  To fit them in the 32 inch diameter rotor I come up with 1.8 inches for their width.  They would be about touching at 13 inches of radius.  That coil width would correspond to the 24 magnet 36 coil version of my design.  So, how do they compare?  Well, let the voltage per coil for the three phase be V and the resistance per coil be R.  With the three phase you have a total voltage of 1.73x15xV or 29.95xV, and a resistance of 30xR.  The waveform will have 30 cycles per revolution.


With my design you would have 24 magnets and 36 coils.  At any given time 2/3 of the coils are putting out voltage and they are working in pairs, so you get 12 times the voltage of a single pair.  But what is that voltage?  Well, here's the weird part.  A single pulse (half a cycle) is generated as the rotor advances 5 degrees.  That's 10 degrees per cycle or 36 cycles per revolution.  For the three phase the rotor must advance 6 degrees to generate a pulse.  Since the 36 cycles per revolution means the magnets are moving 20% faster past the coils, we may the write the voltage per coil pair as 1.2xV.  This means we would expect a voltage of 1.2x12V or 14.4xV out of my design.  The resistance would be 36xR.  If you go to a double rotor with 48 magnets you would about double the voltage to 28.8 volts, but would still have the higher value of resistance.  So, unless you can increase the rotor diameter to use at least thirty magnets per rotor with my design you are probably better off using the three phase with all 60 magnets.  

« Last Edit: September 30, 2007, 09:29:49 AM by finnsawyer »

vawtman

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Re: Generator/Alternator
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2007, 01:32:59 PM »
Thanks for your thoughts Finsawyer
« Last Edit: September 30, 2007, 01:32:59 PM by vawtman »

finnsawyer

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Re: Generator/Alternator
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2007, 08:52:57 AM »
You're welcome.  Good luck with the project.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2007, 08:52:57 AM by finnsawyer »