Introducing myself and a question

[UOAbigail]

Greetings.  I will keep this short and at least minimally relevant for my first post.

I live near a transition point between a zone 1 wind and zone 2 wind location within Illinois.  The maps are not very precise and I can only guestimate as to which side of the line I am living.. (I am guestimating zone 2).  Typical wind conditions at ground level are breezes that can whip ones hair around a bit, with stronger gusts that can make dustdevils.. winter months the wind, of course, is much stronger and more steady.  Unfortunately I live within city limits with a few trees and neighbors nearby, so tall towers will not be possible.

That being said, I am beginning to spend my 'free' time working toward longterm energy savings.  To begin with, I have begun swapping out old 60-watt lights for CF's at 15 or 13 watts..  (Only have like 4 left to do.. but with very low income the extra money is not yet there to just go out and buy them all at once.)  Between that and making the kids turn off the computers when they are not using them, etc, I have managed to cut monthly KWh from roughly 1,250 in winter to 980 this last month.  (Made a big difference in energy bill.. almost $30.00 USD savings at about 9c per kwh)

I have been thinking of starting small.. not much money available to invest into this each month.. but I figure the savings from one month will increase the ammount I can invest the next month, which will of course mean more potential monthly decreases in energy bills.

I have researched solar power and wind power for several weeks (Been driving my wife nuts with it) and have decided that while I am waiting for our money situation to allow me a larger investment, I would tinker with some old dead boxfans.  (I have 3 Lasko boxfans that stopped working in the past 4 years.)

I have taken them apart and cleaned the inside of all dust and debris, (one which could not even be forcibly turned by hand now spins effortlessly) and have reassembled them with their original fan blades.  These motors were from 20" box fans manufactured by Lasko.. they are rated 0.8 amp 120v.. just unplugging a working fan and hooking it up to a borrowed meter I was able to read 0.5 amps approx by hand-spinning it.. although the needle jumped from 0 to 500 and back several times per rotation so was near impossible to tell if it went much past 500.

Holding them outside above my head, the stronger breezes were able to make them spin up on their own, so I know that some low power current can be created from them at or near ground level.

My current 'problem' is this.. When disassembling them, one of the motors had the power 'ribbon' of 4 wires removed from the entry point to the motor.  This was done prior to me even thinking of converting them into wind electric generators.

I have one of the three that still has the original cable inserted as per factory release.  The ribbon has 1 edge painted blue.  I am 'assuming' that the blue edge is the 'neutral' or 'return' line, and the other three within the ribbon are the 3 power lines for the three-speed switch leading to the coils.  Am I correct in this?

I realize they will not generate much useful power.. but I have to start somewhere. and with very limited funds at this point.

Apologies if this is too long (I tend to be longwinded) but as I have very little experience in motors or generators and minimal electrical experience, I felt it woudl be best to be verbose in this 1st posting in order to fully explain the situation here... and that as time goes by I will learn more and be able to be more concise in my postings.

Anyway, a big thanks in advance for any helpful tips, hints, links, and advice. (And yes, I am still reading through the forum as I go)

Peace

UOAbigail

[ghurd]

Welcome!

And I am sorry to be the one to tell you this,

but a stock fan like that will not make any power at all.

I realize you were measuring something.  I have no idea what it was.

I will save the long time regular readers from the bandwidth,

Here is a box fan blade conversion (it works, but it could be a lot better)...

http://www.otherpower.com/images/scimages/2050/ugly20.jpg

And here is a post about a converted box fan motor I made...

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/7/4/34446/17324

You are on the right track.

Conservation first.  Bursted bubbles second.

And you are now on you way!

G-

[ghurd]

"you" = "your" (I swear my "R" key only works when it wants to)

G-

[UOAbigail]

Greetings and thank you for the links.

I have seen that image of the converted boxfan and have skimmed over the post you directed me to prior to joining the forum, but the links in this thread will prove very useful for quick reference.

As for my expectations for this project, I have none really.. other than learning the 'hows' of it all for minimal (or no) initial investment of scarce funds.  If each of the three motors produces even 5 watts at random intervals of actual spinning, I will consider them successful.

I figure better to break the learning curve on something that would wind up in the dumpster anyways than trying (with no experience at all) to build a full turbine from scratch and get it completely wrong, resulting in more initial investment and possible harm to self, others, or property.

In the end, even if the project results in no power at all, the learning experience will prove more valueable than the few watts I would ever expect to garner from the system.

In the meantime, I will likely leave 1 'standard' factory release as for winding and magnets, 1 will be rewound with thicker guage wire and standard magnets, and the third will be rewound and have new, more powerful magnets installed... just for comparison.  (And if the rewound/magnet version proves in the end to be better performance, I may rewind the remaining one and replace magnets in the remaining two)

Anyway, again, thank you for your response.  Looking forward to slowly weaning myself (and my family) from the power company and it's stranglehold on our wallets.

Peace

UOAbigail

[fungus]

Are you saying there's magnets already in the motor? Otherwise you'll have to convert them to make power ..

[UOAbigail]

Greetings

I am assuming there are already magnets, as I used a compass and moved it around the rotor, and the needle switched from north to south at least 4 times dueing the full rotation of the rotor.. I will mark the 'poles' next time to see whether there are 4 or 6.. but I am assuming only 4.

I am not sure how strong the magnetic force (flux, I guess) is with them tho.

In order to put stronger magnets into these I will have to have them bored out to the depth.. plus a small ammount for some kind of bonding substance.. and unfortunately I have no tools to do this personally.  I live in a small town and have no vehicle to travel to the nearest machine shop which is over 5 miles away, so will have to bum a ride from a neighbor to do so.

For now tho, I have not yet obtained any magnet wire nor any other components to test with (awaiting a delivery from my own father of a digital multimeter he picked up at an auction.. should get it sometime next month)  I do, however, own (and know how to use) a soldering iron (used to do some work on PC boards) so at least that will not be an additional starting expense.

Peace

UOAbigail

[ghurd]

I have never seen a Lasko with magnets.

I expect you are finding residual magnetism.

If it won't hold up a screw driver, it is not a magnet.

Don't put a magnet in a hole in a steel rotor.

The magnets flux is 'shorted out' and much of the flux will not make it to the coils.  The output will be much lower.

A box fan isn't worth a whole of of machine work, unless you own the tools.

Fancy box fan conversion...

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2006/12/24/154525/44

Newbie experimenters can scrounge some nice wire from TV or computer monitor degaussing coils.  Easier than microwave transformer unwinding!

Read through Zubbly's posts.  They are not entry level, but get what you can from them.

G-

[UOAbigail]

Greetings.

Again, thank you for the link.

I had another idea in regards to the installation of new magnets to the rotor... just in case gouging out a pit for them to be installed would be problematic in some way.  Again.. not sure how 'doable' it would be.. but at my current level of understanding I dont think it would be much of an issue.

Since the portion of the case which houses the actual coils is basically a larger circle that is self-contained.. like an innertube in a bike tire.. I see little reason why it needs to be inside the casing.. if I were to bolt through the casing and hand-wrap new coils around those bolts.. this would give enough room for the magnets to be applied to the rotor exterior.. I would just have to ensure that the clearance between the two allowed for the rotor to continue to turn freely without binding or having so much of a gap that the magnets were ineffective on those coils.

Again.. just a thought as I have yet to wind a single coil at this time.  And yes, luckily I have a couple of old TV's and computer monitors which have died in the past 10+ years which I can salvage wire from.. just havent gotten to them yet.. and my past experience working in a tv/vcr repair facility shoudl come in quite handy in regards to both knowledge of the equipment and safety in handling them.

As soon as I get the digital multimeter I will be able to tinker some more and figure out what is best to do.  (After all, if the bolted on coils fail to work properly.. nothing says I cant remove them later hehe)

In the meantime I will continue educating myself, and listening to advice.

Peace

UOAbigail

[ghurd]

"Since the portion of the case which houses the actual coils is basically a larger circle that is self-contained.. like an innertube in a bike tire..."

You lost me on that part.

The 'teeth' and ring where the coils are wound are important.  The assembly does not simply hold the coils.  It controls where the flux goes, and gives the magnetic circuit a easy way to get from north to south, and vice versa.  Without the laminations the magnetic flux is spread out and weak.

The lamination carries the flux through the coils, even if the coils are a ways down the tooth. A shaded pole fan motor is an example of coils being far from where the magnetic flux does what it does... Just a pic,

http://www.shaded-pole-motor.com/shaded_pole_motor/48_Series_shaded_pole_motors.htm

It is so important to get a complete flux path, people go to great lengths to add something to do the job.

A second disk of magnets for many you see on this site,

or a ring of laminations like Ed shows on his alt from scratch...

http://www.windstuffnow.com/main/alt_from_scratch.htm

It is important a non spinning flux return path is laminated, or eddy currents are induced (the electric made runs in circles in the iron, instead of in the coils and into the battery).

If that's not what you meant, sorry.

G-

[UOAbigail]

Greetings

I see in the link to the homemade alt that the ring of steel has the coils draped over it, and the magnets on the rotor are, I believe, designed to face them (front to back, like pages in a book)

The motor I am working with the coils are not facing the rotor magnets the same way.. the rotor is 'inside' the circle of coils.. not in front of them.. so the magnetic flux radiates 'outward' from the rotor, which is situated 'inside' the hollow portion of the stator... kinda like the stator is a donut, and the rotor is the donut hole that you can plunk inside of it. to make a solid disc.

So what I meant was to discard the stator 'donut' and use bolts through the circumference of the motor housing itself to hold the coils... effectively making the circumference of the housing into the 'donut' stator... as for filling it in with epoxy or resin or some other laminate, I will check into what I can acquire here locally for that purpose.  I had assumed (probably wrongly) that the bolts themselves would serve to channel the flux.. but again.. I am way too new at this to even make a proper guess.

I had read somewhere that someone used a magnet to gather 'magnetic dirt' from their driveway to fill in the inside of the coils with, when mixed with the epoxy.. am I correct in assuming that the purpose of that is to 'extend' the magnetic flux of the magnetic poles 'inside' the coil itself?  (I am guessing that this would effectively allow the flux to reach farther through the coil to windings that are spaced most distant from the magnet itself)

Again, sorry if I am confusing ya.. am still learning

Peace

UOAbigail

[wooferhound]

-quote-

"if the bolted on coils fail to work properly.. nothing says I cant remove them later"

Do Not Bolt the coils on !!

If you bolt the coils on the magnets will attract themselfs to the bolts and your turbine will not be able to get started. And if it were to be able to break free and turn, the vibration would shake it all apart.

There should not be anykind of metal (magnetic or nonmagnetic) in or around your coils.

[ghurd]

That is removing something designed to do what needs done,

and replacing it with something that won't really work much.

Bolts and the circumference will have eddy currents.  The circumference doesn't have enough volume (mass) to keep the flux. The wire will not be fastened very solid (if I see what you mean) and will vibrate until it shorts.

The great thing about starting with a motor is all the stuff that is already in it.

G-

[wooferhound]

Do a search for "Radial Flux", as this is the style generator that you want you make.

[UOAbigail]

Greetings.

This is exactly why I registered to these boards rather than just 'experimenting' silently in the background.  The information I have gained just from this thread has been immense, and has likely saved me from many hours of failed tinkering (and possibly even from injury at some point as a direct result of my own stupidity lol)

Thank you for the information.  I will look for 'radial flux' and read everything I can on it before working on this any further.

Now, assuming I had a fully 100% working 'bought direct from the manufacturer' mill (or a large PV array capable of charging batteries) I would need a configuration for storing the energy and delivering it when needed to appliances and such.  As I am not an electrician, I want to make sure I know in advance what all is needed to do this.  please correct me if I am wrong or forget anything.

I believe (with my limited knowledge at this point) that I would need the following:

1. A 'blocking diode' that prevents electricity from flowing from the battery back into the mill or the PV array in question.
   
2. Proper guage wire to handle the current from the mill/PV to the battery, and proper guage from the battery to the appliance, based on amperage in both cases.  The ammount should be 'more' than the mill or battery can provide in order to prevent fire hazard.
   
3. A fuse between the mill/PV and the battery, and a second fuse between the battery and the appliances, both rated at 'less amperage' than the wire so as to prevent accidental overheating of wire due to excessive current.
   
4. a switch for manual cutoff both before and after the battery for safety when working on any of this.
   
5. a charge regulating device that prevents overcharging the battery and dumps excessive volts to ground.
   
6. a safe 'ground' path to protect the mill.  I do not believe the PV array needs grounding, tho I could be wrong.
   
7. a dc-to-ac inverter for use of AC appliances if needed.
   
8. since I am not planning on linking this system to the main grid I wont be needing at this point any kind of safety switches/meters/etc for the electric company tie-in.
   
9. Proper battery or batteries and battery box to store them in.
   
10. and of course, some DC appliances/electronics to replace as much of the AC stuff as the battery and charge capacity can safely use.
    
    

Please, if I am forgetting anything, let me know so I can make future plans.

Peace

UOAbigail

[wooferhound]

You are learning fairly quickly, but you need to know more. Don't build your machine now, read and ask questions here for another month or so, you will have a better machine.

Some answers . . .

 1. Wind Generators produce AC power output. A blocking diode will only allow half of the AC power to go through. You will want to use a Bridge Rectifier to get all the power out. A single diode is fine for a solar panel cause the output DC power.

 2. At the low voltages that we use, resistance will start eating some of your hard earned electricity. We generally over size the wires to Minimize Resistance and allow for future expansion of the system. Check out this Voltage Drop Calculator and you will quickly see what I mean.

http://www.nooutage.com/vdrop.htm

 3. The most important thing is to Fuse the wires coming straight off of the battery. The battery is capable of providing 1000 amps of power and can melt or explode sulfuric acid all over everything. If there is a problem and no fuse on the wiring coming from the battery, then your systems wiring becomes the fuse and it will blow. Another thing- the fuse between the Mill and the Batteries needs to be highly overrated. If that fuse blows because of high winds your mill will become Unloaded and will Overspeed and come apart.

 4. A switch on the solar panels is a good idea. I wouldn't switch the battery itself, I would disconnect it taking the lug off the positive. Putting a switch on a wind turbine is different. The switch should be between the turbine and the bridge rectifier, Short All the Wires Together that are coming from the turbine. This will turn off the voltage and Stop the turbine from spinning or overspeeding, also useful in high winds to slow it down or stop it.

 5. You don't need a regulator with Wind power, you need a Dump Controller feeding a Dump Load. Ghurd has a kit that is inexpensive and works quite well. It can be found on these pages.

http://ghurd.info/index.html

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/8/24/172521/889

The rest of your list looks pretty good.

make sure to read through this page and check out the projects at the bottom of the page.

http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_wind.html

Here is my small solar power system.

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2008/3/4/6303/63451

That should get you going pretty good

ask more questions

[UOAbigail]

Greetings!

I know its been a little while since my last post..  had to wait on the multimeter.

The meter is a fluke 12b multimeter.  Not quite experienced with this type of meter, but am working on it.  (Very little experience with any meter, to be honest..)

I did test it out on a used 9v battery.. (which read 8.7v.. it was an old smoke alarm battery that began to wear out, causing the alarm to chirp every 30 seconds.. so I know the meter is good.)

The meter has only 3 dial settings.. voltage, resistance, and 'off'.

It has 4 keypad buttons.. 1 for VDC, VAC, Ohms, and something which appears to be a right-facing arrow and a plus sign next to a sound wave... not sure what that function is.  The second keypad button says 'range', the third looks like what I believe would be a test for damaged circuits.. looks similar to this:  -](- .. and the last key says 'min max'.

Now, not being experienced with this meter.. and no owners manual was included.. I tested the meter on the 'working' fan to test what kinda voltage it would indicate when hand-spun.  The meter read between +0.05 and -0.05 at the best.. so I am assuming it was measuring 1/20th of a volt AC.  Again.. this is with no rewiring and no magnet installation.. just a 'working' fan spun by hand and read at the plug.

If I am incorrect in this, assume its my own lack of knowledge at this point and please enlighten me.  (Also feel free to have a chuckle at my expense lol)

Now it's time for me to get to work and start with a small hand-crank generator similar to what is described on the experiments pages here and see if I can actually manage to get comfortable with this meter and the principles involved in creating a proper generator from these fan motors.

Thank you for reading and for any informative posts.

Peace

UOAbigail

[TomW]

UOA;

Try this PDF it may help some. Not the manual per se but lots of info.

http://www.metrictest.com/catalog/pdfs/product_pdfs/flu_12b.pdf

Was the top google return for that meter model and "manual"

Good Luck.

Tom