Global Warming

[wdyasq]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article2195538.ece

Stirring the pot and observing ... driving a 4 X 4 more earth friendly than taking the train? Organic milk is bad for the environment? Who would have thought!

Ron

[dinges]

"Save the planet, kill yourself"

(Peter hands Ron the revolver)

[fungus]

Not everyone eats meat/milk...takes 10kg of plant matter to make one of meat..so otherwise you would come out less than the car...

[Stonebrain]

Don't worry,

soon the cars will eat all the cereals,only the crumbs be left for us

The cars will be "green" and humans will be starving.

cheers,

stonebrain

[SpirckleM]

Good point fungus.  The problem with these kind of calculations always seem to be about the built in assumptions and what is left out of the calculations.  For instance, if you look at just what a beef cow emits, then you can see a problem, but what about the work that a cow does or can do if allowed its natural inclinations.  For instance, fertilizing the soil and helping plants bulk up faster has got to reduce greenhouse gases somewhat which would seem to counteract the methane produced.

Animals can do other important work that could eliminate other fossil fuel usage.  For instance, goat herds are now being used to clear construction sites of brush and brambles instead of using a bulldozer, and the goats are happy to do it.  Chickens can do more than just cackle and lay eggs; they can also be used as chicken tractors to follow after cattle and scratch the manure into the soil and clear weeds.

The whole idea of these ivory tower calculations is just laughable.

[finnsawyer]

Michigan won't build any more ethanol plants to produce ethanol from corn.  They figure there is no more land available to grow corn.  But the deal is now to use wood and other organics.  The problem is these other processes apparently cost more per gallon.  As someone who has had a hand in small scale farming for years, I figure there must be some way to cash in on this ethanol thing before the bubble bursts without loosing my shirt (never trust a politician).  Even here where we have nine months of winter and three months of tough sledding.

[fungus]

'Chickens can do more than just cackle and lay eggs; they can also be used as chicken tractors to follow after cattle and scratch the manure into the soil and clear weeds.'

Not in a factory farm. But thats getting into a whole different argument :-)

[finnsawyer]

And pigs, if put in a corral type pen, will plow up the ground for you, getting it ready for planting a garden.

[joesfoundry]

All this global warming crap is exactly that.  The has been going the warming and cooling cycles since is was formed.  Example would be during on of those dinosaur times peroids there where tropical forrest as far north as canada.  Way way way warmer than today, and geuss what there were as far as we know no dinos driving around in suv or huge dino coal fired power plants.  

  Then you dont ever hear Al hypocrite Gore talk about when temp goes up water vapor goes up which in turn creates more rain, more rain means more CO2 gets scrubbed from air entering the ocean.  Then that make Calcium Carbonate.  That what people dont under stand the ocean and rain scrub far more CO2 from the atmosphere than plants.  In the 70's it was GLOBAL COOLING AAAH WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE.  Now its the same sentence but with warming instead of cooling.....i say give it some more time and they will change it again to cooling.

[joesfoundry]

TYPO: the earth has been going through warming and cooling cycles since the planet was formed

[DamonHD]

Another poll on this topic that I started elsewhere:

http://www.publisher-world.com/read.php?3,11985

Rgds

Damon

[finnsawyer]

At one time the carbon dioxide level was supposedly 10 times what it is today.  I really wonder how they can really measure natural processes accurately enough to tell what is really causing the global warming.  There is no law that says the energy output of the sun can't change.  Can they measure it at all frequencies accurately?  And how do you measure the total CO2 coming from volcanoes and geothermal vents?

Perhaps the real issue is that the Global Warming Alarmists seem to be turning into the Global Warming Gestapo, threatening to destroy the careers of those who disagree with them, or worse.

[DanB]

'At one time the carbon dioxide level was supposedly 10 times what it is today. '

I wonder when that was or where you got that information?

From stuff I read - it amazes me that all this is still so controversial...  I think a lot of people are in denial actually.  The article ron posted was quite interesting though...

[finnsawyer]

There's more.  Originally the atmosphere was methane until those oxygen fixing bacteria appeared.  Since methane and oxygen can't co-exist in the atmosphere, the oxygen won out.  It's level has also varied greatly.  The planet has also gone through at least one period of time lasting millions of years when it was completely covered with ice.  The evidence for that is the existence of drop stones in the tropics.  It was rescued from this condition by the slow, but large, build up of carbon dioxide by volcanoes and other geothermal processes, which led to the factor of ten compared to today.  When the planet warmed up enough the rains came bringing that CO2 into contact with the surface.  This resulted in the formation of a type of limestone having no fossils, which is the evidence for the process.  There have also been geologic upheavals affecting the atmosphere, such as the Siberian Traps, an extremely large area of volcanic activity, which they think was caused by an asteroid impact on the opposite side of the planet.  The shock waves set off the volcanic activity.  Most of this comes from the Science Channel.  They do seem to present reasonable evidence for their conclusions.    

[joesfoundry]

yes I agree I've heard of the snowball theory.  Without rain to scrub the atmosphere of CO2, the CO2 level roase (volcanoes, animals, bacteria, etc.)  

One must also look at the motivations of some of these people.  Kofie butthead former UN head honcho (dont have direct qoute)said something about global warming being such a threat bla bla bla that countries may need to give up their soverienty*.  and some have said that commies and socialist have hijacted the environmentalist agenda in order to destroy capitalism.  Sry for the bad spelling in a hurry.

[luckeydog]

I personally don't believe the global warming "Theory"

It is only theory with flawed science backing it up.

I Believe in Renewable Energy not for the reasons

of "global warming" But just because it is the

Smart thing to do. and it helps me free myself from

the slavery. I am so sick of sending large portions

of my hard earned money to the power companies.

energy is all around us and almost free

you just need to harvest it

Free yourself of the slavery and build a Wind Turbine!

Luckeydog

.

[finnsawyer]

There were no animals at that point.  And due to the ice cover there was very little biological activity anywhere.  They figure cracks in the ice and such allowed enough light to penetrate to the water below to keep the bacteria alive.  Of course, we know today that various bacteria and forms of life can survive at ocean vents even if there is no light, but it was necessary for some of the oxygen producing bacteria to survive to restart the biosphere.  

[Tritium]

The global climate is doing exactly what its designer intended since he already knew exactly every action man would take even before man was created. Use things reasonably and don't worry about it.

Thurmond

[TomW]

The global climate is doing exactly what its designer intended since he already knew exactly every action man would take even before man was created. Use things reasonably and don't worry about it.

I'm sorry?

He?

Not everyone buys into that intelligent design theory. And not all of those who do buy into the intelligent design theory buy the the "He" part, either.

But, I guess it relieves individuals of any responsibility for their actions because it is already decided?

Sorry, but, like other absolute statements I see here, I tend to try to see it from different angles.

My angle is it is simply an accident of nature that we are here and that we need to be careful of how powerful we think we and the God we have created are.

Just providing another viewpoint that does not conform to your absolute statement. No need for a crusade, just keep an open mind.

To each their own. The real major difference between creationists and evolutionists seems to simply be time at least from here.

Cheers.

TomW

[pepa]

Tom, do you realy think that the earth can survive the population expansion for any length of time without something to kill some of us off. i would love to see some sign of hope, wouldn't you? pepa

[TomW]

pepa;

Nothing against hope. Exactly why I challenged the statement. I dislike the "everything is good, God will fix it" line of thought.

We need to take responsibility as a species to at least try to improve things. That is regardless of faith.

I have hope that humankind will pull its collect head out of its collective rectum one day and realize we need to exist in harmony with nature and not in domination of nature.

If our actions are already decided as tritium states what happened to free will then? It just doesn't ring true that it could be both ways.

But, first, remember he brought up the Deity angle and I just responded with my view. It is not "Anti God" it is just a view that just wringing your hands and praying is not the answer for all of us.

I could go on but will not because it will just lead to either a Jihad, Holy War or Crusade where everyone will lose. I mostly want people to understand that sitting on our hands got us here and action is needed to improve things.

I am not sure I buy into the whole Global Warming / Carbon thing either.

I do what I can to affect my corner of things but thats all I can do until we kill off the corporations that just use up resources and move on like immortal locusts.

Cheers.

TomW

[pepa]

good reply Tom, pepa.

[ghurd]

Maybe it's from a movie.  I don't remember.

There is this big flood.

Preacher gets to the 2nd floor of the church. So does the water.

Then the 3rd. Then the 4th. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Then the bell tower.

The preacher is sitting on the peak bell tower.

A boat comes by.  The seaman asks "Need a lift preacher?"

Preacher says "No.  God will provide for me."  The boat leaves to rescue other people.

A 2nd boat, and the same thing.  Then a 3rd boat.

Then the water gets higher, and he is standing on the lightning rod, head barely above the waves.

A helicopter arrives. Same conversation.

Water gets higher.

Preacher drowns. Goes to heaven.

Preacher asks God why God did not save him, after all, he was a believer.

God answers "I sent 3 boats and a helicopter!  What did you expect me to send?"

Maybe God sent wind, sun, falling water, and breeder reactors?

Even if the French like breeder reactors.

(TomW, seems On Topic at this point.  Feel free to Zap if you desire)

G-

[Tritium]

No No, not preaching head in the sand here. Not preaching pre-destination. All your decisions are your own, However each choice you have made or will make are already known. I am saying the system was designed with the abuses that exist in mind. Personally I don't believe that any one individual or family can do any appreciable damage to the planet at least not in the way a megacorp bent on profit does but even that was planned for. Yes do anything you can as good stewardship has been a big topic for the last 6000 years. But if action is beyond your control then there is no need for worry.

Thurmond

[luckeydog]

there is talk of population explosion. and weather

the earth can handle it or not.

this is the way I look at it.

if you have one acre of land and that land

can support three rabbits with out harm to the

land then this is a healthy population.

but when two of those rabbits breed and create

6 more rabbits then the land will become unhealthy

and the rabbit population will be reduced to 3 to 4 rabbits again.

the human population is no different than the rabbits in the one acre

field of land.

I believe the population of humans on this earth are reaching the max

sustainable population it may have exceeded this already.

only time will tell.

just my .02 cents

Luckeydog

[etownlax]

"All your decisions are your own, However each choice you have made or will make are already known."-Tritium

That is what I believe, too. You decide what you do, what you believe, what you think. But its just that its already known what you are going to do, etc, and where you'll end up.

I also believe global warming is just another million dollar(if not billion) industry and nothing more than that. People these days will try every way to take your dime. Airlines are even providing you an option to make your cross atlantic flight's carbon foot print zero. You just pay them an extra 15 bucks and they magicly take the carbon out of the air. Then there's Al Gore... He made a moive about global warming. Enough said about him. Some electric utilities also provide you the option to buy wind power electric, again, for more money.

Not all this is bad. It does help to increase research and developement. Whether its NASA or Chevy taking the lead it all helps to pull our selves away from oil. But I just see it also being used to make money. Which if thats the only way and the fastest way, then so be it.

So if your still wondering what I think about global warming then its this: The earth goes, has gone, and will go in temperature cycles. They will change and continue to change for many years. It might be increased by humans but it is impossible for it to be created by humans and substanded due to humans. So I believe then one day it will cool down and then it will be the Global cooling Billion dollar industry.

My 3 cents worth.

-Randy

[electrondady1]

it is the rate of change in co2 levels and the resultant rise in temperature that

is unprecedented.

there is no time for ecosystems to adapt.

we have already puked 200 gigatons of co2 into the air

even if we could somehow initiate a 0 emissions policy today

it will take at least 100 years before the repercussions of that end .

the ice is melting.

a lot of people are going to get there feet wet.

while millions die of thirst.

whether some deity knew this was going to happen or not is totally irrelevant.

   

[finnsawyer]

The Detroit Free Press reported this Sunday that John Dingell wants to greatly increase the Federal tax on Gasoline.  I fired off an E-mail saying what about developing the massive Alberta Tar Sands to increase the supply instead.  Supposedly producing oil from that would be economically viable at a crude oil cost of $50 a barrel.  Well, crude is running around $70 a barrel.  And you hear nothing about it.  This whole thing does look to me more and more like a conspiracy to take away more of our freedoms and control what we do without having any real effect.  Send more money to Washington and watch it disappear down a black hole.  Need I remind you about a bridge to Nowhere Alaska in light of the bridge collapse in Minneapolis.  We have politicians that can't govern and an electorate that keeps sending the same idiots back to Washington.

If they really want to impact CO2 generation, the only viable short term solution is nuclear power generation, electrification of the railroads, elimination of long haul trucking as much as possible, and electrification of short haul trucking and private commuting.  Long term, perhaps space based power generation will become viable.  While the overall system efficiency would currently be low (7% is the last figure I saw), the energy is as free as it gets and as massive as you want.  

[joesfoundry]

"220 gigatons???" prob 90%(if it is really that much) of that 220 gigatons has been either metabolised by plants,  scrubbed by rain water and the ocean to form Calcium carbonate, etc etc.  So really it gets old hearing about how much we have spewed into the atmosphere ,which I don't know but, I would bet that it is no more than what would happen during increased volcanic activity.

[joesfoundry]

Typ: 200 gigatons.....ooops.  

[snowcrow]

"The troubling fact is that taking a lot of exercise and then eating a bit more food is not good for the global atmosphere. Eating less and driving to save energy would be better."

This is "FUZZY LOGIC" at best, if you ask me!!! Starve are selves and feed are cars? It doesn't take much to figure out who paid for this study!!! Yes, I can see where cutting calorie intake would benefit a growing number of the population, no pun intended, but driving to save energy would be better, I don't think so!!! At some point, the lack of exersice and poor diet will catch up with us, and we will be driving to the doctor's office once or twice a week, so how does that help the global atmosphere?

Heres a thought, how about a Health Club, with staff, including a RN, salad bar, and where all of the exersice machines are made in such a way as to produce electricity when it is being used!! Might as well put burning calories to good use!!! The only membership requirements are that you arrive and leave by "Green Means", (bike, bus, or walking), that you workout if you hang out, and you pay a small members fee, (which is waved for the top 10 members who lose the most lbs. that month). If you have enough members, it should paid for itself in no time!! You could sell the extra power to the grid. It may sound silly, but its got to work better than the above statement!!!

Blessings, Snow Crow

[finnsawyer]

There is no need for the ecosystem to adapt.  Life on a fundamental level is very tough, and bacteria are found deep underground.  If the surface of the planet was destroyed tomorrow by the heat of a massive asteroid impact, life would reestablish itself on the surface very quickly.  The real issue is that the planet is halfway through its lifespan and in all that time has managed to produce only one bipedal, opposable thumb, somewhat reasoning species.  Could it do it again in the time remaining for it?  Well, that assumes there is some point in preserving the existence of this bipedal species or life in general.

As I mentioned earlier the Global Warming Alarmists have turned into the Global Warming Gestapo, with their threats to ruin the careers of, or even find some way to criminally prosecute those who disagree with them.  It has now gone beyond reasoning.  They have made a religion of it with all the bad potential that implies.  What do we get next, the Global Warming Inquisition?

[DamonHD]

At the risk of stirring the pot: I happen to be mildly sceptical on the GW issue in its most alermist versions, though the evidence seems to be mounting.  The fact is that we must balance risks * costs.  So ignoring GW entirely and refusing to defuse the potential risk can be seen as very selfish.

Just as building an (unsafe) fireworks factory in a residential area has laws to mitigate such risks, so, I think, should be pointless pollution or inefficiency.

People/megacorps too idle or selfish to mitigate the risks if they can do so easily should be punished or coerced because their actions are antisocial and potentially fatal.  The really key issue here is 'easily'/reasonable.  I don't think this issue is "should we just cover our eyes and ears and hope we don't suffer" but rather "what are the best/simplest reasonable steps everyone can take to minimise the risk*cost".

Rgds

Damon